Arnold Murray's Teaching

15And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

2And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.


1And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Watchman_2 said:

Let's get your acknowledgement of error regarding your original claim that folks do not take the mark of the beast until Satan's reign. Once I have your acknowledgement of error, I can address the remainder of your issues.

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I will acknowledge no such thing because I am not in error. You are the one in error. As I explained if you bothered to read my response, I do not agree with you at all about the reign of the man of sin beginning during any of the vials, let alone the 6th vial. As I stated, all vials are poured out during his reign. This is why people have already received the mark and worshipped the image of the beast when the first vial is poured out. He is already reigning by this point. That is why he is sitting in the seat of power in his kingdom when the 5th vial is poured out. He has already been in power since before the 1st vial was poured out. So your failure here to answer any points of contention using Scripture only shows the weakness of your position.

POSTIOS said:

No offence meant brother....
I am well aware of the theory....
as for fact, that remains to be proven...at least to me.

wel, no it does not. . I need proof.
SAYING vial 6 is his appearance, is hearsay, not proof.
too many folks around here, just say stuff, and call it proof.

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You have all the proof that you need.
Satan's appearance is the 6th seal [chronologically], the 6th trumpet, and the 6th vial.

Not just rapturists.
And while I was indeed taught that, I still do not see proof of that.
I am not saying you are wrong either.

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Of course, there are other belief systems designed to have folks worship Satan, like preterism. Certainly, it is not the other religions and it is not the elect in need of repentance.

But I do not know that. Help me to know that. I know you say that.
The bibe says they worshiped his image. If you are linking this to Rev13s first beast, then I can see the connection. I still need more tho.

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If you do not believe that the number of the beast, 666, represents the appearance of Satan in terms of seals, trumpets, and vials in time, then it may be quite difficult for you to understand. The key to understanding Rev. 13:18 is the word 'count', which means a calculation/accounting over time. So, either one is looking for 665 separate prophetic events to take place prior to Satan's appearance or three groupings of 5 preceding events.

The latter is true. It just so happens that there are 3 groupings of events, the seals, the trumpets, and the vials, described in Revelation. To me, this is dispositive of the timing of Satan's appearance being the 6th thereof each.

I won't bother with the seals as proof because they are not listed in chronological order. However, if you look at the 5th and 6th trumpets [Rev 9], verification is made as to the timing of the release of Satan, and his angels, according to Rev. 12:9, with Satan's reign during the 6th trumpet. This confirms that 666 refers to 6th seal, 6th trumpet, and 6th vial.

possibly.
an argument can be made.
A study that I recently did seems to suggest ALL the vials are poured out AT Christ's return. They might last a while and account for the extra days of Daniel.

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I know that is not true.

again, speculation.
The shortened time might or might not be 5 months.
You yourself just stated you beieve the shortened time was the latter half, not the first.

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No speculation. See Mat. 24:22 -- the tribulation time is shortened. See Rev. 9:5 -- shortened to 5 months.

I was taught that too.
I doubt the first half, is shortened aswell...

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See Dan. 9:27 -- the tribulation time is split in two halves with Satan reigning in the latter half.

I am just not sure if the vials are poured out before the Lord's return, right at it, or right after.

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The first 4 vials are for those needing repentance. It would not be fair if God allowed folks to repent of worshipping Satan after Christ returns. Christ's return seals the fate of all those worshipping Satan. So, it is not possible for all the vials to be dispensed after Christ returns.

not at all. lotsa years. He is still my favorite teacher (Dennis too).

lol. who rides the first horse in the first seal.
Brother, please do not act that way towards me.
I do not expect that from SC students.
And there are some here.

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If you have studied lots of years, you should know the seals are not listed in chronological order. The rider of the white hores in 6:2 is Satan. The first listed seal is the 6th seal chronologically.

so, by that logic, that means that the pre trib crowd is right in their assumption that one comes before 6 in the seals (question).

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It is easy to prove the seals are not in chronological order. I started a topic here on the seals.

Well then we should be able to prove that. IMO The mark is specific to Satan and his reign.

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See 2 Thes. 2, Isa. 28, and Eze. 13.

I think it is worth the study to find out if the wrath is poured before Christ comes or after.

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I really don't see why you have any question about it.

One aspect of Arnold Murray's show that still kind of blows my mind is when he has his "questions and answers" portion at the end of the show.......

People write in with the most unbelievable questions......like "Where in the Bible does it talk about Jesus turning water into wine?" or "What was Moses' brother's name?"

Things that most believers should either already know or be able to easily look up in their own Bibles.......

Kingdom_Come said:

I will acknowledge no such thing because I am not in error. You are the one in error. As I explained if you bothered to read my response, I do not agree with you at all about the reign of the man of sin beginning during any of the vials, let alone the 6th vial. As I stated, all vials are poured out during his reign. This is why people have already received the mark and worshipped the image of the beast when the first vial is poured out. He is already reigning by this point. That is why he is sitting in the seat of power in his kingdom when the 5th vial is poured out. He has already been in power since before the 1st vial was poured out. So your failure here to answer any points of contention using Scripture only shows the weakness of your position.

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You originally claimed that folks do not take the mark of the beast until Satan's reign. I showed you that they take the mark prior to the first vial, and that Satan does not reign until the 6th vial. You came back and [errantly] claimed that Satan reigns as of the 5th vial.

So, regardless if Satan's reign commences at the 5th or 6th vial, your original claim is wrong as folks have the mark prior to both of these vials.

If Satan's reign commencement is the first in time, it would be listed first as the vials are in chronological order.

Hence, you really do owe your acknowledgement of error. So, why don't you just acknowledge it and get it over with. Then, I can go on to the other issues that you have raised.

Tim Myers said:

One aspect of Arnold Murray's show that still kind of blows my mind is when he has his "questions and answers" portion at the end of the show.......

People write in with the most unbelievable questions......like "Where in the Bible does it talk about Jesus turning water into wine?" or "What was Moses' brother's name?"

Things that most believers should either already know or be able to easily look up in their own Bibles.......

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Well, there is no screening of the questions. If you have watched long enough, you would know that there are some in-depth questions asked too.

I wasn't "knocking it," Watchman....

I was just making an observation......

Tim,

I didn't say that you were knocking it. I just wanted to set the record straight about the type of questions asked.

Watchman_2 said:

You originally claimed that folks do not take the mark of the beast until Satan's reign. I showed you that they take the mark prior to the first vial, and that Satan does not reign until the 6th vial. You came back and [errantly] claimed that Satan reigns as of the 5th vial.

So, regardless if Satan's reign commences at the 5th or 6th vial, your original claim is wrong as folks have the mark prior to both of these vials.

If Satan's reign commencement is the first in time, it would be listed first as the vials are in chronological order.

Hence, you really do owe your acknowledgement of error. So, why don't you just acknowledge it and get it over with. Then, I can go on to the other issues that you have raised.

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Again, I will acknowledge no error except the ones you continually make.


Please quote any of my posts where I said any of this. You will find that I never said that “Satan” begins his reign at the 5th vial or any other vial for that matter. In fact, I have not been talking about “Satan” directly in the first place. What I did do was use the fact that the beast is already sitting in power in his kingdom at the pouring out of the 5th vial to disprove your erroneous conclusion that the kingdom of the beast begins at the 6th vial. He can’t begin reigning at the 6th if he is clearly shown sitting in power at the 5th. That was the only point I made. But please, if you know of anywhere I spoke differently regarding this, do show me where I said something different.

I said people do not take the mark until the reign of the beast (little horn or man of sin). I do not subscribe to the notion that Satan himself is the man of sin. Yes, he is cast into the earth and puts his power behind the beast. The man of sin’s coming is after the working of Satan. However, that does not necessarily equate to him physically manifesting himself in some form. After all, Scripture makes very clear that the beast and the false prophet will be cast into the lake of fire when Christ returns (Rev 19:20). However, Satan will merely be bound for the thousand years (Rev 20:2-3). He will then be cast into the lake of fire at the end of the thousand years where the beast and the false prophet already are and have been since the beginning of the thousand years (Rev 20:7-10). Logically then, they cannot be and are not the same entity. Either way what I said is clear, and you have not even demonstrated that your claim about Satan beginning his reign at the 6th vial is even correct to begin with.

Since you have not actually demonstrated my error, there will be no acknowledgement of it. Now, here is what I actually said.

Kingdom_Come said:

Wrong.

“And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.” (Rev 16:10-11)

This happens when the fifth angel pours out his vial. He is already sitting upon the seat of power in his kingdom at this point. Clearly he’s already in power before the sixth vial, and since the mark and the worshipping of the image of the beast has already taken place by the time of the pouring out of the first vial, seems pretty clear he was already in power at that time as well.

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Kingdom_Come said:

Wrong.

“And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.” (Rev 16:10-11)

This happens when the fifth angel pours out his vial. He is already sitting upon the seat of power in his kingdom at this point. Clearly he’s already in power before the sixth vial, and since the mark and the worshipping of the image of the beast has already taken place by the time of the pouring out of the first vial, seems pretty clear he was already in power at that time as well.

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Wrong!

The 'seat' spoken of is the authority of the one-world order run by the 10 kings [fallen angels], who received their power from the beast/dragon [Satan]. It is the first beast of Rev. 13 -- seven heads, ten horns, and 10 crowns [13:1].
Satan is kicked out of heaven; but is not revealed to mankind yet [12:9]. The 6th vial is when Satan's reign is described.

Watchman_2 said:

Wrong!

The 'seat' spoken of is the authority of the one-world order run by the 10 kings [fallen angels], who received their power from the beast/dragon [Satan]. It is the first beast of Rev. 13 -- seven heads, ten horns, and 10 crowns [13:1].

Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

​

Satan is kicked out of heaven; but is not revealed to mankind yet [12:9]. The 6th vial is when Satan's reign is described.

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Yet it says his kingdom and not their kingdom. And Revelation 13 describes him reigning for 42 months, and the passage you quoted describes him receiving his power from Satan. And Revelation 16 describes his kingdom.

Anyway, now all you have to do is actually prove all of this Scripturally instead of simply providing your commentary.

Kingdom_Come said:

Yet is says his kingdom and not their kingdom.

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The one-world order is Satan's kingdom. See Rev. 13:1. However, Satan does not reign over it until half way through [13:11, Dan. 9:27]. Though run by the 10 kings the first half of the tribulation time, the 10 kings have one mind with Satan.
The 10 kings only reign as their power is received thereby Satan. So, the reference of 'his' in 16:10 does not mean that Satan reigns -- just that Satan's one-world order is established.

Now all you have to do is actually prove all of this Scripturally instead of simply providing your commentary.

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I already have proven it several times. The number of the beast, 666, refers to the 6th seal, 6th trumpet, and 6th vial in time. The trumpets and vials are given in chronological order. The seals are not.

Originally Posted by POSTIOS

No offence meant brother....
I am well aware of the theory....
as for fact, that remains to be proven...at least to me.

wel, no it does not. . I need proof.
SAYING vial 6 is his appearance, is hearsay, not proof.
too many folks around here, just say stuff, and call it proof.
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Watchman_2;57273081 said....

You have all the proof that you need.

Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Satan's appearance is the 6th seal [chronologically], the 6th trumpet, and the 6th vial​

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Watchman_2 said:

The one-world order is Satan's kingdom. See Rev. 13:1. However, Satan does not reign over it until half way through [13:11, Dan. 9:27]. Though run by the 10 kings the first half of the tribulation time, the 10 kings have one mind with Satan.

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
Rev 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
​

The 10 kings only reign as their power is received thereby Satan. So, the reference of 'his' in 16:10 does not mean that Satan reigns -- just that Satan's one-world order is established.



I already have proven it several times. The number of the beast, 666, refers to the 6th seal, 6th trumpet, and 6th vial in time. The trumpets and vials are given in chronological order. The seals are not.

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Again, where does it say Satan literally reigns during the second half of anything? I see his spiritual reign. In fact he is referred to as the god of this world (2 Cor 4:4; Eph 2:2; John 12:31; John14:30; John 16:11). By all indications he’s had a certain measure of power for some time, not just at the time of the end. I see the man of sin exercising Satan’s power. I do not see anything stating Satan is literally planning to manifest himself and reign.

The number 666 is the number of a man. That man is most likely the man of sin since it is the number of the beast as well as being described as the number of a man (Rev 13:18); absolutely nothing in there pointing us to the 6th seal, 6th trumpet and 6th vial. This mark is necessary in order to buy and sell (Rev 13:17). Again, nothing even remotely suggesting one should look for something more esoteric in its meaning. It is received on a specific part of the body (Rev 13:16).

What you have done is point to a Scripture, state your conclusions about it and then offer your conclusions as proof. Before your conclusions can be accepted, you must first demonstrate how Scripture supports those conclusions. Scripture needs to make it clear to us 666 means what you say it does. Otherwise it’s just you saying it. You are entitled to your conclusion. However, I do not see Scripture supporting it, and I certainly see no reason to accept it as anything more than your opinion. Your conclusions are certainly not ‘matter of fact’ proof.

POSTIOS said:

again, i know the teaching. Prob as much as you.
But just because he or u say a thing, does not make it so.

as for 666, while I used to teach that very thing, biblically we already have some 666 references.
I would rather go with those.

his number is six hundred and sixty-six, not 6, 6, 6.

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I believe that I already covered this somewhere. The key to understanding is the word 'count'. So, one is either looking at 665 events precedent to Satan's appearnace or 3 separate groupings of 5 events precedent.

If you think that it is 666 instead of 6, 6, 6, then you probably have caluculated the 665 prophetic events leading up to Satan's appearance. I have yet to see anyone undertake that task before.

then that is what we shoud say instead of rapturists.

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Rapture is the largest group among them. I have no idea as to all other minor religions that have the same type of false beliefs.

do not belittle me Brother, even subtle belittement.
I spent years with YOU at factnet.
You even have my email address.
if ya wanna teach a thing to others, then know what to teach.
learn HOW to teach too.

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I think that you are being a bit sensitive. I am not attempting to belittle you at all. On one hand, you say that you have studied with AM for a long time. Then, on the other hand, you say that you don't know for sure.

So, the dichotomy of your positions leaves me trying to figure out what you know and what you don't know.

if you do not connect the other mentionings of 666 in the bible,
how can you claim to understand its meaning.
You have yet to mention any.
And I will have no probem accepting a connection between say, Solomon's gold and 6th seal/trump/vial, if i see one.

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I see no other connection between 6, 6, 6 and the other reference to 666 in Ezr. 2:13.

no,
one woud be counting, over a long period of time, those biblical characters which point to 666.
since we have other 666 mentionings in the scriptures, that is where we will find our pertenant info.

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I see no reference in Strong's to the meaning of 'count' to be a long period of time.

I realize that belief. Just not sure if I count the same way.
I used to teach the same, until I started to study the other mentionings of six hundred and sixty-six in the bible with an opened mind.

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O.K. -- you have your reasons for teaching the way that you do.

then....that seems to mess up that 666 theory you accept,
until you change the order of 1, to 6....whether I agree with you or not.
and ya I know you say 6th chronological...

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I provided the correct order of the seals in the topic, 'Seven Seals -- Not in Chronological Order'. It is premised upon the number of the beast being 6, 6, 6 -- not 666.

possibly. that is one reason that we are here to find out.

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I don't know what you doubt about the 6th trumpet being that of Satan.

no it does not confirm. How is that counting him over a long period of time.

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It is not 'long' period of time.

time will tell...
I think they begin as He descends....
and are done being poured by the time His feet touching down...
the results last a while....a few weeks or 1000 years, not sure.

Rev18 shows that Babylon is fallen when His children are called out.
The hour is done.

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The vials are not all poured out at Christ's return as Christ's return is the 7th, and last, vial.

I realize it is shortened...
but the speculation is connecting the 5th trump to that shortened time.
It may mean something else, like the 3.5 years is already the shortened time.

I see merit in this line of thought, but I am still considering other options.
The speculation is naming the shortened time to 5 months.
While I have believed that for years, it is non the less speculation.

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The way I see it is that the time was shortened for the elect's sake. So, if one considers the persecution of the elect to commence with the 5th trump [one world order run by the fallen angels], then the 5 months cover both the 5th and 6th trumps. If one considers the persecution of the elect to be only when Satan reigns, the 6th trump would be 5 months and, therefore, the 5th trump would be 5 months too -- totalling to 10 months.

I am quite sure that it is no longer 3.5 years. If one corrects PM's Days of Daniel analysis, one calculates the year of the Lord's return to be 2015 [not 1981 as PM calculated]. Hence, if it were 3.5 years, the fallen angels would have already been here.

PM is not sure himsef if both halves are shortened to a total of 5 months, or just the final one.
I was sure that you believed as I do that the 2nd half is shortened only.

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I would have to agree with you on PM's ambiguity. Over the years, he has changed his position. Since the elect need to prepare ahead of time for those days, I think that it is only wise to plan for 10 months -- not just 5 months.

again....I think it begins as He descends.
see Rev18 for plagues coming on a fallen babylon, and God's call to his children to come out.

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People have the right to think as they choose -- right or wrong.

I don't know why this is difficult. I am not interested in anything that is not biblicaly accurate.
Obviousy I know the doctrine. I said years.
When I read the seals, I see the same outline that is seen in Mat24.

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The seals are not in listed in chronological order.

I read the thread.

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Good!

I've seen them many times.
See Rev13:14-17
See Rev16:2
By who, and when is the "mark" implimented.
The false Christ impliments it, I'm sure we agree....
But is it before or during the trib.
From the wording of Rev13 and 16, I say during.
Cetainy not app. 2000 years ago.

This shows the timing of when the mark is dealt out, and who deals it.

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See the 7 vials. Folks have the mark of the beast before the 5th and 6th vials. So, obviously, Satan, and his fallen angels, do not implement the mark of the beast.

really?
then what of my question about babylon falling first, and then God calls His people out.

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It falls at the 7th vial. The first 4 vials are dispensed upon non-elect Christians that took the mark of the beast. Satan's tribulation [vials 5 and ] are despensed to seal the fate of those christians that took the mark of the beast. Vial 7 is the timing for the plagues on Babylon.

Kingdom_Come said:

Again, where does it say Satan literally reigns during the second half of anything? I see his spiritual reign. In fact he is referred to as the god of this world (2 Cor 4:4; Eph 2:2; John 12:31; John14:30; John 16:11). By all indications he’s had a certain measure of power for some time, not just at the time of the end. I see the man of sin exercising Satan’s power. I do not see anything stating Satan is literally planning to manifest himself and reign.

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Perhaps, you overlooked this -
Satan's reign is literal -- not just spiritually.

The number 666 is the number of a man. That man is most likely the man of sin since it is the number of the beast as well as being described as the number of a man (Rev 13:18); absolutely nothing in there pointing us to the 6th seal, 6th trumpet and 6th vial. This mark is necessary in order to buy and sell (Rev 13:17). Again, nothing even remotely suggesting one should look for something more esoteric in its meaning. It is received on a specific part of the body (Rev 13:16).

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If you think it is 666 instead of 6, 6, 6, then please identify the 665 prophetic events that precede Satan's appearance.

What you have done is point to a Scripture, state your conclusions about it and then offer your conclusions as proof. Before your conclusions can be accepted, you must first demonstrate how Scripture supports those conclusions. Scripture needs to make it clear to us 666 means what you say it does. Otherwise it’s just you saying it. You are entitled to your conclusion. However, I do not see Scripture supporting it, and I certainly see no reason to accept it as anything more than your opinion. Your conclusions are certainly not ‘matter of fact’ proof.

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What I have done was accurately taught the word of God.

Scripture does not have to make it literally clear. Christ gave many of his teachings in the form of parables so that the religious hacks of that era would not understand. The same can be said for endtime prophecy as much is cloaked in symbolism and metaphors.

One should consider that the endtime non-elect church is made up primarily of the 1/3 that rebelled with Satan in the first age, which would have been put away with there and then if not for God's grace. So, it would be far too easy for the 1/3 if all was laid out in simple English today.

I have mentioned several times that the key to understanding '666' is the word 'count'. It cannot be a bar code or any of those similar nonsense theories put out by the Bible hacks of this generation. As Rev. 16 plainly teaches, the mark of the beast is received before Satan, and his angels, are even released onto earth.

Thus, by way of the word 'count', one is either looking for 665 prior prophetic events or three separate 5 prophetic events. So, if you are doubting my conclusion, then you can specify the 665 events that you see it to be.

Just because 13:18 contains the rendering 'man' does not mean it is speaking of one of the male sex. The word in the manuscripts is the Greek anthopos, which simply means of the genus homo as opposed to an animal. If it were one of the male sex, the Greek arren or arsen would be appropriate. Keep in mind that Satan impregnated the woman in the Garden of Eden. So, he has the form of a man.

Watchman_2 said:

I believe that I already covered this somewhere. The key to understanding is the word 'count'. So, one is either looking at 665 events precedent to Satan's appearnace or 3 separate groupings of 5 events precedent.

If you think that it is 666 instead of 6, 6, 6, then you probably have caluculated the 665 prophetic events leading up to Satan's appearance. I have yet to see anyone undertake that task before.

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your speculation is saying that either there is 666 events or three.
the number is six hundred and sixty-six, not 6, 6, 6.
we already have biblical references for that number.
so, logically, that is where we begin our understanding.

while i have taught it as 6, 6, 6 in the past, I wanna be sure.
trump 5 seems to be about Satan, just to name but one.

Rapture is the largest group among them. I have no idea as to all other minor religions that have the same type of false beliefs.

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ok....
and just so we are clear, pre trib and tongues aree my two biggest problems with present day church practices.

I think that you are being a bit sensitive. I am not attempting to belittle you at all. On one hand, you say that you have studied with AM for a long time. Then, on the other hand, you say that you don't know for sure.

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because a person has studied with another, doesn't make the other right on all things.

you yourself say that you don't agree with him on all things.
well, neither do I. neither do many of the students that I have conversed with.
Wanting to be sure should be admired, not chastized.
Again, he's the best teacher I have ever heard.

So, the dichotomy of your positions leaves me trying to figure out what you know and what you don't know.

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I have been taught what you have been taught.

I see no other connection between 6, 6, 6 and the other reference to 666 in Ezr. 2:13.

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why would Gopd mention it then?
what about the fiery furnace in Daniel?

I see no reference in Strong's to the meaning of 'count' to be a long period of time.

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That is what PM teaches....a counting stone worn smooth over time.

O.K. -- you have your reasons for teaching the way that you do.

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as do you.

I provided the correct order of the seals in the topic, 'Seven Seals -- Not in Chronological Order'. It is premised upon the number of the beast being 6, 6, 6 -- not 666.

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I know, I read it.

I don't know what you doubt about the 6th trumpet being that of Satan.

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I never said I doubted it at all.
But so is the 5th.

It is not 'long' period of time.
The vials are not all poured out at Christ's return as Christ's return is the 7th, and last, vial.

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that is a base teaching of PM, count him over a long period of time.
And I actually said, the vials are poured out as He is descending, and finished being poured at His return, being the 7th.
This understanding is based off of PM's teaching.

The way I see it is that the time was shortened for the elect's sake. So, if one considers the persecution of the elect to commence with the 5th trump [one world order run by the fallen angels], then the 5 months cover both the 5th and 6th trumps. If one considers the persecution of the elect to be only when Satan reigns, the 6th trump would be 5 months and, therefore, the 5th trump would be 5 months too -- totalling to 10 months.
I am quite sure that it is no longer 3.5 years.

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I was until recently...still trying to figure it out.
see the thread Rev12:1-6.

If one corrects PM's Days of Daniel analysis, one calculates the year of the Lord's return to be 2015 [not 1981 as PM calculated]. Hence, if it were 3.5 years, the fallen angels would have already been here.

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would you mind private messaging me with that correction?
The Daniel's Timeline thread is what got me thinking....check it out.
This guy in the video reminds me of PM and knows many of the truths that we know and teach,
so when I started listening, I kept istening till the end...2 hours I think.
His Daniel timeline has Christ's return at 2016-

I would have to agree with you on PM's ambiguity. Over the years, he has changed his position. Since the elect need to prepare ahead of time for those days, I think that it is only wise to plan for 10 months -- not just 5 months.

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what if the first half is not shortened?

People have the right to think as they choose -- right or wrong.


The seals are not in listed in chronological order.

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Personall I agree.

Good!


See the 7 vials. Folks have the mark of the beast before the 5th and 6th vials. So, obviously, Satan, and his fallen angels, do not implement the mark of the beast.

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what if they are all poured at the same time, or in succession in the blink of an eye?
And I do not follow your reasoning.

if they have the mark of the beast, then obviously Satan was there to give it to them...ie Rev13.
I do not view the vials as a timeline persay.
I think all conditions are met on that last day.


if babylon is declared fallen in Rev18, and God calls his people out before the plagues come, then what else can we come up with that falls in line?

It falls at the 7th vial.

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see above....hence my questioning....

The first 4 vials are dispensed upon non-elect Christians that took the mark of the beast. Satan's tribulation [vials 5 and ] are despensed to seal the fate of those christians that took the mark of the beast. Vial 7 is the timing for the plagues on Babylon.

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aren't the plagues the same as the vials?
if so, I see a contradiction in your line of thought.

you say that the first 4 vials are dispensed before Satan and his angels arrive here. I disagree. The first vial shows proof that Satan is here.

the second beast in Rev13 is the one that dispenses the mark.
he must be here to do so.

Watchman_2 said:

Perhaps, you overlooked this -

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
​

Satan's reign is literal -- not just spiritually.

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I overlooked nothing. Paul does not identify the man of sin - the very one he is talking about in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 - as being Satan. So your reference to that verse does not prove your claim. More so, Revelation 19 and 20 disprove the notion that the man of sin or little horn or beast equals Satan by making it clear that the beast (little horn or man of sin; same reference) and the false prophet are cast into Gehenna at the beginning of the thousand years. Satan is cast into the lake of fire at the end of the thousand years. This alone disproves any idea that Satan equals the beast (even though he is represented in one sense in the symbolism; in many instances in Revelation, the beast is referring to the man of sin or little horn). And if that is not enough, simply scroll down in 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2 to verses 8 and 9. Here Paul also distinguishes between the man of sin (lawless one) and Satan by making clear that the man of sin’s coming is after the working of Satan. Once again, these are two entities working in league with each other. They are not one and the same.

Watchman_2 said:

Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
​

If you think it is 666 instead of 6, 6, 6, then please identify the 665 prophetic events that precede Satan's appearance.

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Your question is moot. Let’s say that you claim to have found the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. It’s like if I were to say I do not believe there is a pot of gold, and you respond by asking me to show you that the pot of gold is still at the end of the rainbow. If I can’t show that the pot of gold is still at the end of the rainbow, then I must accept your assertion that you have in fact found and have possession of said pot of gold. The problem with this logic is that you completely missed the part where I said I don’t believe there is a pot of gold to begin with. Thus the burden of proof is not on me to disprove you found the pot of gold. The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that there is a pot of gold to be found.

This is the problem with your request here. I do not need to show 665 prophetic events as I do not see 666 in the same manner that you do. I do not see it as a reference to other prophecies (whether you want to call them the 6th prophecy of each set of seals, trumpets or vials, or as 666 different prophecies). I take it to mean exactly what John describes it as in Revelation 13; a mark that people are compelled to receive and that is necessary in order to buy or sell. I don’t try to add to the meaning we are given plainly by trying to glean some esoteric reference from it beyond what is given here. If you studied a bit more history, you might understand John’s reference here.

Watchman_2 said:

What I have done was accurately taught the word of God.

Scripture does not have to make it literally clear. Christ gave many of his teachings in the form of parables so that the religious hacks of that era would not understand. The same can be said for endtime prophecy as much is cloaked in symbolism and metaphors.

One should consider that the endtime non-elect church is made up primarily of the 1/3 that rebelled with Satan in the first age, which would have been put away with there and then if not for God's grace. So, it would be far too easy for the 1/3 if all was laid out in simple English today.

I have mentioned several times that the key to understanding '666' is the word 'count'. It cannot be a bar code or any of those similar nonsense theories put out by the Bible hacks of this generation. As Rev. 16 plainly teaches, the mark of the beast is received before Satan, and his angels, are even released onto earth.

Thus, by way of the word 'count', one is either looking for 665 prior prophetic events or three separate 5 prophetic events. So, if you are doubting my conclusion, then you can specify the 665 events that you see it to be.

Just because 13:18 contains the rendering 'man' does not mean it is speaking of one of the male sex. The word in the manuscripts is the Greek anthopos, which simply means of the genus homo as opposed to an animal. If it were one of the male sex, the Greek arren or arsen would be appropriate. Keep in mind that Satan impregnated the woman in the Garden of Eden. So, he has the form of a man.

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The rest of this is simply your ideas (and I am keenly aware that others hold similar ideas). I await some actual Scripture proving any of these assertions.

This is a pretty wild thread.

I would like to make a couple of comments. In Revelation 13:4, the world worships the beast and the dragon. That indicates two separate persons.

The beast is the Antichrist. But what about Satan? How does the world worship Satan during the last 42 months?

It boils down to the Abomination of Desolation and the timing of when the AOD is incarnated by Satan, making it appear to come alive.

The Antichrist man is mortally wounded sometime before day 1185 of the 7years. That is 75 days before the exact midpoint, and 1335 days until Jesus returns.

The False prophet has a statue image of him (in the standing position), made up to be worshiped. When that AOD image is placed in the holy place, the temple, that triggers the Jews to start fleeing. Keep in mind that Jesus said when they see the AOD "standing" in the holy place. A critical difference from the Antichrist beast, the man of sin, who will "sit" in the temple of God.

As the Jews are fleeing, the recovered (from his mortal wound) Antichrist beast obviously tries to stop them, and for 75 days does battle with the two witnesses. On day 1260, the two witnesses are killed. "Who can make war against the beast?" the world will say. 3 1/2 days later, the two witnesses ascend to heaven.

At which point, there is a war in heaven (the second heaven) and Satan and his angels cast down. Up to that point in time, the AOD standing statue image of the Antichrist beast has been inanimate, just a lifeless statue.

When Satan finds himself on earth, he incarnates the AOD statue making it miraculously come alive and speak. The Satan incarnated living statue image of the Antichrist beast in Revelation 13:15 speaks. And everyone has to worship the image (incarnated by Satan) and the Antichrist himself. Which makes it possible that both the beast and Satan are worshiped as two individuals, per Revelation 13:4.

When Jesus returns, the False Prophet and the Antichrist beast are cast alive into the lake of Fire. Leaving Satan to be exposed. And imo, which is speculation, the outer facade of the statue image will be dissolved, and there on the temple mount the entire world will see Satan unveiled - just as it says will happen in Ezekiel 38:17.

Doug L.