Arminianism is absolutely illogical and unbiblical

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So to sum up: Your point is; Christianity had it all wrong until Calvin showed up?

Big assumption there, which version of Christianity are we talking about? Either way one has to be selective in figures and quotes. St. Paul is the original Calvinist! Just sayin'.
 
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Dave-W

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FenderTL5

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Anto9us

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dunce.jpg
 
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2 of the 5 TULIP points do exactly that:

Total Depravity where man is incapable of making a choice FOR God. and

Irresistible Grace where once God extends it, man cannot fight against it.

Given that God wants ALL MEN to come to repentance (unless you think Peter lied when he wrote that) every person should be a Christian. Clearly that is NOT the case.

It's almost humorous to see a non-Catholic, non-EO, a Protestant rail against the Reformers. Luther totally held to TD, long before TULIP, as did Calvin and so many others, the doctrine goes all the way back to Scripture.

Ignatius. A.D. 110
“They that are carnal,” says he, “cannot do the things that are spiritual, nor they that are spiritual do the things that are carnal, as neither faith the things of unbelief, nor unbelief the things of faith,” (Ep. ad Ephesians p. 22.).

Justin. A.D. 150.
“Mankind by Adam fell under death, and the deception of the serpent; that ‘we are born sinners;’ and that we are entirely flesh, and no good thing dwells in us; he asserts the weakness and disability of men either to understand or perform spiritual things, and denies that man, by the natural sharpness of his wit, can attain to the knowledge of divine things, or by any innate power in him save himself, and procure eternal life,” (Epist. ad Zenam, p. 506.).

“Having sometime before convinced us to of the impossibility of our nature to obtain life, hath now shown us the Savior, who is able to save that which otherwise were impossible to be saved,” (Epist. ad Diognet. p. 500.).

Origenus Alexandrinus. A.D. 230.

“In Adam,56 as saith the word, all die, and are condemned in the likeness of Adam’s transgression, which the divine word says not so much of some one, as of all mankind—for the curse of Adam is common to all,” (Contr. Cels. 1. 4, p. 191.).

“This” he says, shows, that through sin the kingdom is given to death; nor could it reign many, unless it receives the right of reigning from sin; by which seems to be pointed out, that whereas the soul was created free by God, it could reduce itself into bondage through sin,” (Comm. in Joannem, p. 316.).

“Because our free will is not sufficient to have a clean heart, but we are in need of God, who creates such an one; therefore it is said by him, who knew how to pray, Create in me a clean heart, O God!”(Contr. Cels. 1. 5, 1, 7, p. 354.).

etc. etc. etc.
 
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A_Thinker

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However, Calvinism affirms that God is so magnificent that any true apprehension of God would immediately yield repentance. If a person truly sees God for who He is then they cannot but repent. God's grace - his revelation of himself - is irresistible because God is so beautiful. So those who, in the end, deny God have never truly apprehended him.

Why doesn't Satan repent ?
 
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It's almost humorous to see a non-Catholic, non-EO, a Protestant rail against the Reformers. Luther totally held to TD, long before TULIP, as did Calvin and so many others, the doctrine goes all the way back to Scripture.
Um - you do realize there are MORE protestants that come from the Methodist and Wesleyan side of things than there are Calvinists, right?
 
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Um - you do realize there are MORE protestants that come from the Methodist and Wesleyan side of things than there are Calvinists, right?

My advice, look into Church history timelines, and the historical roots of the Methodists for they are not pure Wesley. Looking at the situation through modern glasses without regard to the past will only lead to misconceptions.
 
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Tree of Life

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2 of the 5 TULIP points do exactly that:

Total Depravity where man is incapable of making a choice FOR God. and

Fallen man will not choose God because he doesn't want to. His will is free in that he is able to do what he wants. God does not refuse fallen man even though fallen man really wants to repent. Fallen man won't repent because he has no desire to do so. That's free will. He gets what he wants.

rresistible Grace where once God extends it, man cannot fight against it.

Given that God wants ALL MEN to come to repentance (unless you think Peter lied when he wrote that) every person should be a Christian. Clearly that is NOT the case.

Regenerate man will not ultimately reject it because regenerate man wants God. His will is free. He gets what he wants.
 
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My advice, look into Church history timelines, and the historical roots of the Methodists for they are not pure Wesley. Looking at the situation through modern glasses without regard to the past will only lead to misconceptions.
I know that. I know the Holiness movement and the Pentecostal movement grew out of Methodism and affected it; which was non-Wesley influences. And Wesley did not as big an influence on Anglicanism as he had hoped.
 
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Regenerate man will not ultimately reject it because regenerate man wants God. His will is free. He gets what he wants.
But the text says "ALL," not just regenerate, men. All to come to repentance, all to not perish.
 
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Anyone who says that fallen man, by himself, is able to make a choice for God is a Pelagian. Even Jacob Arminius and John Wesley knew that.
"No one can come to me unless the Father draws him." True back then and true today.

But what is also true is that one can be drawn; but resist that drawing. Calvinism teaches otherwise.

The author of Hebrews gives us this warning (quoting Ps 95) 3 times:

"Today if you hear HIS voice, do not harden your hearts..."

Such a warning is pointless unless we can chose to resist Him.
 
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Tree of Life

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But the text says "ALL," not just regenerate, men. All to come to repentance, all to not perish.

If you know any Greek at all, which I will assume that you do, you know that panta (just like the english all) can mean several possible things. It can mean "all without exception" as you suggest. But it can also mean "all without distinction" - i.e. "all sorts of people" or "all kinds of people" - and not necessarily every individual. Paul, for example, tells Timothy to pray for "all people". This probably means "all without distinction" - all kinds of people. Otherwise that would make for a very long prayer meeting!

A responsible exegete would admit that both options are exegetically possible. Then the context along with your theological assumptions would lead you to choose one option or another. So don't say that "all without distinction" isn't possible when it certainly is.
 
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"No one can come to me unless the Father draws him." True back then and true today.

But what is also true is that one can be drawn; but resist that drawing. Calvinism teaches otherwise.

The same Jesus said: "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out." (John 6:37)

The Father gives a bride to his Son. The bride will certainly come.
 
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Tree of Life

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"Today if you hear HIS voice, do not harden your hearts..."

Such a warning is pointless unless we can chose to resist Him.

The Hebraist is writing to local, visible congregations which contain both true believers and unbelievers. The warnings are very useful for the visible church. They cause true believers to stay vigilant and can even cause unbelievers to repent.
 
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I know that. I know the Holiness movement and the Pentecostal movement grew out of Methodism and affected it; which was non-Wesley influences. And Wesley did not as big an influence on Anglicanism as he had hoped.

One of the founders of the Methodist Church was a Calvinist...George Whitefield, and at the beginning there were Calvinistic Methodists. Anglicans pre-date the Methodists, and the Thirty-Nine Articles have more in common with Calvinism than Catholicism...the beloved "Puritans" came out of the Church of England...I think the American Baptists pre-date the Methodists also, might have to look that up to double check though.
 
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JerseyChristianSuperstar

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2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.​

The God of Calvinism could not predestine EVERYONE to salvation if that was what He willed? 2 Peter seems to be saying that. Not wanting any to perish. All to repent.

"All" means all. But if men love darkness rather than HIS light, they can choose to stay in the darkness. This Calvinism denies.

I already showed how the context of the 2 Peter 3 quote is referring to the elect, to born-again believers in Jesus Christ, God is not willing that any of His predestined elect should perish, but that they all should come to repentance—and they will.

It looks like you're a universalist, where everyone will go to Heaven. No, they won't.

Daniel 12:2 - And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 25:46 - And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Matthew 7:13-14 - Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
 
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I already showed how the context of the 2 Peter 3 quote is referring to the elect, to born-again believers in Jesus Christ,
No - it refers to all men.
It looks like you're a universalist, where everyone will go to Heaven. No, they won't.
I am no universalist by any stretch. I understand that most people will spend eternity in hell.

But I also maintain that the reason they do that is they have chosen to harden themselves against the drawing by God to repentance.
 
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