Armageddon? Really?

[Yahudim]

We have been taught for many centuries that one of the End Times events was a great battle at Armageddon, presupposed to be at the Mount of Megiddo, in the expansive plain of Megiddo. But is that true? There is no 'mount' or 'mountain' on the plain of Megiddo. There is only a 'tel' otherwise known as the remains of an ancient city or town that presents as a small hill.

The only linguistic reference we have is in Revelation 16:16 and the translation from the Greek in my interlinear reads, (CLV) Rev 16:16 "And they mobilized them at the place called, in Hebrew, "Armageddon." (Italicized text inserted by the translators)
Notice the footnote: ARMAGEDDON (Hebrew, perhaps mount-Megiddo).

Again, the only problem is that there is no mountain at Megiddo!

I want for you to watch this short video by Dr. Michael S. Heiser. It is a remarkable analysis of both the Greek and the possible Hebrew references found in the Hebrew Scriptures. Then of course, give me your impressions.

May this be for a blessing.

 

[daq]

We have been taught for many centuries that one of the End Times events was a great battle at Armageddon, presupposed to be at the Mount of Megiddo, in the expansive plain of Megiddo. But is that true? There is no 'mount' or 'mountain' on the plain of Megiddo. There is only a 'tel' otherwise known as the remains of an ancient city or town that presents as a small hill.

The only linguistic reference we have is in Revelation 16:16 and the translation from the Greek in my interlinear reads, (CLV) Rev 16:16 "And they mobilized them at the place called, in Hebrew, "Armageddon." (Italicized text inserted by the translators)
Notice the footnote: ARMAGEDDON (Hebrew, perhaps mount-Megiddo).

Again, the only problem is that there is no mountain at Megiddo!

I want for you to watch this short video by Dr. Michael S. Heiser. It is a remarkable analysis of both the Greek and the possible Hebrew references found in the Hebrew Scriptures. Then of course, give me your impressions.

May this be for a blessing.

I have seen that presentation before and, for the most part, agree, with a slight variation that goes all the way back to Gan Eden.

הר־מעדן

Is there an ancient mount from Eden (מעדן)? The mount of the Congregation?
Perhaps then we have both a reference to the word mo'ed and to Eden.

Moreover we know that Matthew was originally penned in either Hebrew or Aramaic, and look what the following lexicon entry has concerning Matthew 15:39 for the Magadan/Magedan variant, (apparently the Latin Vulgate also has Magedan, (and here also the "Syriac" appears to reveal that it was back-translated from the Greek)).

Matthew 15:39 R G, with the variant reading (adopted by L T Tr WH (cf. WH's Appendix, p. 160)) Μαγαδάν, Vulg.Magedan (Syriac wdGM []); if either of these forms was the one used by the Evangelist it could very easily have been changed by the copyists into the more familiar name Μαγδαλά.
G3093 Magadan

I wonder what was in the original Hebrew text???

 

[Yahudim]

I have seen that presentation before and, for the most part, agree, with a slight variation that goes all the way back to Gan Eden.

הר־מעדן

Is there an ancient mount from Eden (מעדן)? The mount of the Congregation?
Perhaps then we have both a reference to the word mo'ed and to Eden.

Moreover we know that Matthew was originally penned in either Hebrew or Aramaic, and look what the following lexicon entry has concerning Matthew 15:39 for the Magadan/Magedan variant, (apparently the Latin Vulgate also has Magedan, (and here also the "Syriac" appears to reveal that it was back-translated from the Greek)).

Matthew 15:39 R G, with the variant reading (adopted by L T Tr WH (cf. WH's Appendix, p. 160)) Μαγαδάν, Vulg.Magedan (Syriac wdGM []); if either of these forms was the one used by the Evangelist it could very easily have been changed by the copyists into the more familiar name Μαγδαλά.
G3093 Magadan

I wonder what was in the original Hebrew text???

You wonder what was in the original Hebrew text??? So do I chaver!

I wish we had the entirety of the DSS War Scroll. I'm barely scratching the surface with that one. Hmm...
Anything there you might know to contribute?

'Mount of Assembly' and 'Mount of Appointment' (as the reverse translation in the CLV interlinear has it for Isaiah 14:13) seem to reference both, 1) a place, and 2) an appointed time. In terms of an end time battle that includes both earthly and heavenly places, both earthly and heavenly actors, both the righteous and the unrighteous, my first reaction to the earthly part would be where He placed His Name, ie., Mount Zion. However, my interpretation of the Eden account presumes them to be nearly synonymous.

 

[daq]

You wonder what was in the original Hebrew text??? So do I chaver!

I wish we had the entirety of the DSS War Scroll. I'm barely scratching the surface with that one. Hmm...
Anything there you might know to contribute?

'Mount of Assembly' and 'Mount of Appointment' (as the reverse translation in the CLV interlinear has it for Isaiah 14:13) seem to reference both, 1) a place, and 2) an appointed time. In terms of an end time battle that includes both earthly and heavenly places, both earthly and heavenly actors, both the righteous and the unrighteous, my first reaction to the earthly part would be where He placed His Name, ie., Mount Zion. However, my interpretation of the Eden account presumes them to be nearly synonymous.

We are on the same page. As for the War Scroll I've read an English translation only once and have not studied it, but The Master, the author of the fourth Gospel, and Paul sure seem to make some allusions to it, (sons of Light).

 

[Yahudim]

We are on the same page. As for the War Scroll I've read an English translation only once and have not studied it, but The Master, the author of the fourth Gospel, and Paul sure seem to make some allusions to it, (sons of Light).

Great stuff! So many things have begun to open up for me in this past year, I'm having trouble catching my breath. So I hope this thread will inspire some real study and not a dogmatic struggle. Time will tell.

 

[Divide]

I know next to nothing about the geography of Israel's area but I think that there at least used to be a Mt. Megiddo over there somewhere. Perhaps the name was changed over the years?

So I would think that if scripture says it it has to be true so it is there and that it goes by another name now seems to make the only sense of why there isn't one.

 

[HTacianas]

We have been taught for many centuries that one of the End Times events was a great battle at Armageddon, presupposed to be at the Mount of Megiddo, in the expansive plain of Megiddo. But is that true? There is no 'mount' or 'mountain' on the plain of Megiddo. There is only a 'tel' otherwise known as the remains of an ancient city or town that presents as a small hill.

The only linguistic reference we have is in Revelation 16:16 and the translation from the Greek in my interlinear reads, (CLV) Rev 16:16 "And they mobilized them at the place called, in Hebrew, "Armageddon." (Italicized text inserted by the translators)
Notice the footnote: ARMAGEDDON (Hebrew, perhaps mount-Megiddo).

Again, the only problem is that there is no mountain at Megiddo!

I want for you to watch this short video by Dr. Michael S. Heiser. It is a remarkable analysis of both the Greek and the possible Hebrew references found in the Hebrew Scriptures. Then of course, give me your impressions.

May this be for a blessing.

Armageddon does come from Megiddo, but not Mount Megiddo. It literally means "the place of meeting". It's something of a crossroads north of Jerusalem where the east meets the west. East and west referring to trade routes of the time. If you look at a map of Israel and locate Megiddo, then imagine armies preparing to attack Jerusalem from the north. Armies marching from the west to rendezvous with armies from the east, seaborne armies from the Mediterranean, and armies marching from the south along the coast would all meet at Megiddo, the place of meeting, to stage the invasion.

 

[Studyman]

We have been taught for many centuries that one of the End Times events was a great battle at Armageddon, presupposed to be at the Mount of Megiddo, in the expansive plain of Megiddo. But is that true? There is no 'mount' or 'mountain' on the plain of Megiddo. There is only a 'tel' otherwise known as the remains of an ancient city or town that presents as a small hill.

I agree that for many centuries we have been taught falsehoods by this world's religions regarding a great number of topics. Certainly, the end time teaching is a seductive topic. I thank you for your invitation, I hope you are not sorry you asked for it later.

In my understanding, "Mount" or "mountain" means "To Loom up". It can be a hill or a mountain, something that stands out. I understand it to Spiritually symbolize religions or churches. There is Mt. Zion which symbolizes God's Church. And there are "many" other hills and mountains which I think symbolizes various religions/churches of this world which "loom up" during a man's Spiritual journey.

Gen. 22: 7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.


Does God really care about a literal piece of dirt, or a rock, or a region of the planet earth? Did God not create all the hills and mountains, how is it Mt. Zion is said to be the mount of the Lord? In my understanding, the Kingdom of God and HIS Temple is in the mind of men.

So then with this understanding in my mind;

Rev. 6: 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks "of the mountains". 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, (religions and churches) and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

These Kings of the earth, these great men, rich men and chief captains and all who received the "mark" of the Prince of this world, are not telling literal mountains and rocks to fall on them to hide them from God are they? Can you see what I mean? They are defending themselves with their own religions.

I think Yeshua sheds light on this in Matthew 7 when His Judgment came to those "many" who called Him Lord, Lord. They started defending themselves, I'll paraphrase, "Wait a minute there Jesus, don't you know who we are?" We taught in your name!! We did a lot of good stuff in your name. They certainly tried hiding from the Judgment of God by invoking their religion. I think it's all connected.

In my understanding, the greatest threat for the man of God is not literal rocks and mountains, but the "Other voice" in the garden God placed us in, which "Professes to know God" and disguises itself as Apostles of Christ.

The only linguistic reference we have is in Revelation 16:16 and the translation from the Greek in my interlinear reads, (CLV) Rev 16:16 "And they mobilized them at the place called, in Hebrew, "Armageddon." (Italicized text inserted by the translators)
Notice the footnote: ARMAGEDDON (Hebrew, perhaps mount-Megiddo).

Again, the only problem is that there is no mountain at Megiddo!

But there were religions.

Rev. 16: 19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20 And every island (which loomed up from the plain of water) fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Doesn't every person have an "End Time"?

15 ("Lo! I am coming as a thief! Happy is he who is watching and "keeping his garments", that he may not be walking naked and they may be observing his indecency!")

Will God not "Pluck up" or "Gather" (Hebrew for Armageddon) everyone of "them that had "NOT" gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name" (Rev. 15:2) Isn't that the reason why we are to watch in this life because we don't know when death will come, as it comes as a thief in the night??

I don't know what is going to happen in the future my friend, and frankly I don't spend a lot of time trying to figure it out, although there are "many" religions and religious men, both great and small, who "come in Christ's Name" that dissect an ant, while swallowing a camel, that do just that, in my view.

The Messiah once told me through the Scriptures. I'll use the KJV.

Matt. 6: 30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? 31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, "Wherewithal shall we be clothed"? 32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. 33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. 34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

Given this instruction, I'm not sure why I should worry about tomorrow.

I want for you to watch this short video by Dr. Michael S. Heiser. It is a remarkable analysis of both the Greek and the possible Hebrew references found in the Hebrew Scriptures. Then of course, give me your impressions.

May this be for a blessing.

Because we are brothers, I broke my own policy and watched this video. I mean no disrespect and want only to do as you requested and give my impression. In that spirit, I have to say that the religious philosophy that there is going to be some kind of "war" between the God's and mortal humans is foolishness to me.

What "POWER" does the dragon, the beast, or the false prophet have that doesn't come exclusively from God? By HIS "WORD" HE created everything within our realm to see and understand, and much more. By His "WORD" the power they possessed is gone, HE takes them, binds them and puts them wherever He pleases. Where is the "War"?

Doesn't the "War" take place in the minds of men?

Eph. 6: 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Would these "High Places" not be in the minds of God's people, where HIS Temple exists?

Rev. 16: 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle "of that great day" of God Almighty. 15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

And who do they battle against? God? Or the Day of God?

In my understanding, this is who they make war with.

Rev. 12: 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The deceiver went after Adam, but didn't go to him directly, instead, it went after the "woman/church/bride" (The weaker vessel) of Adam, and used her to influence him. And who was it that worked to influence the "Man Child", the Messiah for over 20 years? Was it not the same deceiver, who had possessed the minds of the "woman", the Harlet who "professed to know God"?

Satan's battle isn't against God, it already lost that battle. It was no contest, in my view. It's against God's People. From Adam and Eve to the last man born before "The Last Great day". Since God is no respecter of persons, I think all men have end times. Stephen sure did, and others as well, even the "Son of God" had difficult "end times" such as HE never saw before".

In conclusion, consider Rev. 18.

Rev. 18: 1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

Was this not true for Noah, who separated himself from the religions of the world that surrounded him? And Abraham, was he not also called to "Come out of her" regarding the religions and philosophies of his fathers? And Israel as well, were they not told to "Come out of her", the greatest religions of that time? And Caleb, was he not also surrounded by men who "Professed to know God, but in works denied HIM?" And why did all these things happen to them? Was it not for our admonition, "upon who the ends of the world has come?"

Would this not be true for EVERY man who "Turns to the Lord" from their heart, and separates themselves from this world's religious sects and businesses to "Yield themselves" servants to Obey God? Would this same dragon not make War with them though men who "Professed to know God"?

As I have stated before, I have the Oracles of God and am convinced that through them, I have everything I need "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

I'm sure Dr. Heiser means well, but I don't think he is considering that "Mt. Zion" or the "Heavenly Jerusalem" is a Spiritual construct in the mind of God's People, not on a rock or literal piece of land. And I also don't believe God's Truth is hidden in some cave somewhere waiting to be discovered or hidden in an ancient language not understood by most. It certainly wasn't in Acts 2.

So my friend, for what it's worth, this is my take on the subject at hand. Sorry so long, but you deserve my best effort in explaining my understanding. I hope you're not sorry you asked for it.

 

[daq]

Armageddon does come from Megiddo, but not Mount Megiddo. It literally means "the place of meeting". It's something of a crossroads north of Jerusalem where the east meets the west. East and west referring to trade routes of the time. If you look at a map of Israel and locate Megiddo, then imagine armies preparing to attack Jerusalem from the north. Armies marching from the west to rendezvous with armies from the east, seaborne armies from the Mediterranean, and armies marching from the south along the coast would all meet at Megiddo, the place of meeting, to stage the invasion.

Armageddon would still be two words in Hebrew, (or possibly two words joined together as one word), if that was the correct transliteration. The first word, "Ar", would be Har in Hebrew, meaning a mount, a mountain, or a hill. Moreover some of the more Hebraic minded translations of the passage bring this out in their English renderings of the Greek text because they know that the word Har has been joined to (what they assume to be) Megiddo.

Revelation 16:16 TS2009 (The Scriptures)
16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Har Meḡiddo.

Even the ASV renders it in this manner:

Revelation 16:16 ASV
16 And they gathered them together into the place which is called in Hebrew Har-Magedon.

Which is rendered from this:

Revelation 16:16 (N/A, BYZ, W/H, (T/R reads αρμαγεδδων))
16 και συνηγαγεν αυτους εις τον τοπον τον καλουμενον εβραιστι αρμαγεδων

It certainly has the prefix for a mount, mountain, or hill: and as the OP and the video posted therein by the late Dr. Michael Heiser have pointed out, there is no mount, mountain, or even a hill of Megiddo.

 

[Yahudim]

I know next to nothing about the geography of Israel's area but I think that there at least used to be a Mt. Megiddo over there somewhere. Perhaps the name was changed over the years?

So I would think that if scripture says it it has to be true so it is there and that it goes by another name now seems to make the only sense of why there isn't one.

Hi Divide,

Thank you for your perspective and your faith that 'there must be a mountain over there somewhere'. On that point, you are correct. There is one. Just not by that name. Here is basically what the author is saying:

The word Armageddon is in the Revelation of Our Lord to John, His disciple. The word Armageddon is written in Greek. But the text says that 'Armageddon is from the Hebrew, so there was a transliteration that happened. That's when a Hebrew word or phrase is 'sounded out' but with Greek letters instead of Hebrew. He also said that the little apostrophe preceding the A is a 'breathing mark' that produces the 'H' sound. So the first word is made up from a 'breathing mark' plus two Greek letters make the sound 'HAR', which in Hebrew means a geological Mount or Mountain.

Generally speaking, Hebrew is a language of Consonants and the Vowels are implied by the context of the surrounding text (a very simplified explanation). So when you 'sound out' the word transliterated as Armageddon in the Greek and you already have the first syllable 'HAR' (meaning mountain in Hebrew) accounted for, you end up with three remaining consonant sounds that you can match to Hebrew letters. See where this is going?

What remains are the sounds of M G and D. In the Greek letters that would be the Mu, Gamma and Delta. But in the Hebrew (because the account in the Revelation 16:16 tells us, "And they mobilized them at the place called in Hebrew, "Armageddon."), those letters must be either Mem, Gimmel and Dalet - or - Mem, Ghyin and Dalet, because there are two Hebrew letters that have the 'G' sound; Gimmel and Ghyin.

Searching for mountains in the TaNaK (what most Christians refer to as the Old Testament) with those three Hebrew letter combinations turns out to be fairly straight forward. There aren't many candidates. In fact, there is only one and it is found in Isaiah 14:13 "Yet you, you said in your heart: To the heavens shall I ascend; Above the stars of El shall I exalt my throne, And I shall sit on the Mount of Appointment..." Also known as the Mount of Assembly, or the Temple Mount.

Please remember that there is a Temple on earth and a Temple in Heaven, the earthly one a reflection of the heavenly one. Just as Armageddon in the Revelation speaks of the Judgement upon the nations in the last days, Isaiah speaks of the judgement of the rebellious among the Heavenly Hosts, also in the last days. This is what is called a perfect fit.

I do hope this helps.

 

[Yahudim]

I agree that for many centuries we have been taught falsehoods by this world's religions regarding a great number of topics. Certainly, the end time teaching is a seductive topic. I thank you for your invitation, I hope you are not sorry you asked for it later.

In my understanding, "Mount" or "mountain" means "To Loom up". It can be a hill or a mountain, something that stands out. I understand it to Spiritually symbolize religions or churches. There is Mt. Zion which symbolizes God's Church. And there are "many" other hills and mountains which I think symbolizes various religions/churches of this world which "loom up" during a man's Spiritual journey.

Gen. 22: 7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.


Does God really care about a literal piece of dirt, or a rock, or a region of the planet earth? Did God not create all the hills and mountains, how is it Mt. Zion is said to be the mount of the Lord? In my understanding, the Kingdom of God and HIS Temple is in the mind of men.

So then with this understanding in my mind;

Rev. 6: 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks "of the mountains". 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, (religions and churches) and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

These Kings of the earth, these great men, rich men and chief captains and all who received the "mark" of the Prince of this world, are not telling literal mountains and rocks to fall on them to hide them from God are they? Can you see what I mean? They are defending themselves with their own religions.

I think Yeshua sheds light on this in Matthew 7 when His Judgment came to those "many" who called Him Lord, Lord. They started defending themselves, I'll paraphrase, "Wait a minute there Jesus, don't you know who we are?" We taught in your name!! We did a lot of good stuff in your name. They certainly tried hiding from the Judgment of God by invoking their religion. I think it's all connected.

In my understanding, the greatest threat for the man of God is not literal rocks and mountains, but the "Other voice" in the garden God placed us in, which "Professes to know God" and disguises itself as Apostles of Christ.



But there were religions.

Rev. 16: 19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20 And every island (which loomed up from the plain of water) fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Doesn't every person have an "End Time"?

15 ("Lo! I am coming as a thief! Happy is he who is watching and "keeping his garments", that he may not be walking naked and they may be observing his indecency!")

Will God not "Pluck up" or "Gather" (Hebrew for Armageddon) everyone of "them that had "NOT" gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name" (Rev. 15:2) Isn't that the reason why we are to watch in this life because we don't know when death will come, as it comes as a thief in the night??

I don't know what is going to happen in the future my friend, and frankly I don't spend a lot of time trying to figure it out, although there are "many" religions and religious men, both great and small, who "come in Christ's Name" that dissect an ant, while swallowing a camel, that do just that, in my view.

The Messiah once told me through the Scriptures. I'll use the KJV.

Matt. 6: 30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? 31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, "Wherewithal shall we be clothed"? 32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. 33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. 34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

Given this instruction, I'm not sure why I should worry about tomorrow.



Because we are brothers, I broke my own policy and watched this video. I mean no disrespect and want only to do as you requested and give my impression. In that spirit, I have to say that the religious philosophy that there is going to be some kind of "war" between the God's and mortal humans is foolishness to me.

What "POWER" does the dragon, the beast, or the false prophet have that doesn't come exclusively from God? By HIS "WORD" HE created everything within our realm to see and understand, and much more. By His "WORD" the power they possessed is gone, HE takes them, binds them and puts them wherever He pleases. Where is the "War"?

Doesn't the "War" take place in the minds of men?

Eph. 6: 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Would these "High Places" not be in the minds of God's people, where HIS Temple exists?

Rev. 16: 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle "of that great day" of God Almighty. 15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

And who do they battle against? God? Or the Day of God?

In my understanding, this is who they make war with.

Rev. 12: 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The deceiver went after Adam, but didn't go to him directly, instead, it went after the "woman/church/bride" (The weaker vessel) of Adam, and used her to influence him. And who was it that worked to influence the "Man Child", the Messiah for over 20 years? Was it not the same deceiver, who had possessed the minds of the "woman", the Harlet who "professed to know God"?

Satan's battle isn't against God, it already lost that battle. It was no contest, in my view. It's against God's People. From Adam and Eve to the last man born before "The Last Great day". Since God is no respecter of persons, I think all men have end times. Stephen sure did, and others as well, even the "Son of God" had difficult "end times" such as HE never saw before".

In conclusion, consider Rev. 18.

Rev. 18: 1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

Was this not true for Noah, who separated himself from the religions of the world that surrounded him? And Abraham, was he not also called to "Come out of her" regarding the religions and philosophies of his fathers? And Israel as well, were they not told to "Come out of her", the greatest religions of that time? And Caleb, was he not also surrounded by men who "Professed to know God, but in works denied HIM?" And why did all these things happen to them? Was it not for our admonition, "upon who the ends of the world has come?"

Would this not be true for EVERY man who "Turns to the Lord" from their heart, and separates themselves from this world's religious sects and businesses to "Yield themselves" servants to Obey God? Would this same dragon not make War with them though men who "Professed to know God"?

As I have stated before, I have the Oracles of God and am convinced that through them, I have everything I need "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

I'm sure Dr. Heiser means well, but I don't think he is considering that "Mt. Zion" or the "Heavenly Jerusalem" is a Spiritual construct in the mind of God's People, not on a rock or literal piece of land. And I also don't believe God's Truth is hidden in some cave somewhere waiting to be discovered or hidden in an ancient language not understood by most. It certainly wasn't in Acts 2.

So my friend, for what it's worth, this is my take on the subject at hand. Sorry so long, but you deserve my best effort in explaining my understanding. I hope you're not sorry you asked for it.

Yes I asked for it and glad I did! To all of what you offered I would simply respond; you do realize that there are two things that happen on that day:

1. The Son takes His vengeance on the earthly hosts that 1) come against Israel and 2) against every earthly being that actively embraces evil and false deities.
2. The Father in Heaven will judge and punish all of the heavenly hosts that rebelled against Him.

Please take a moment to peruse my reply to Divide above or simply click -> HERE. It may help clear up a few points.

Blessing on you Brother! Thanks for coming over and offering your perspective.

 

[Studyman]

Yes I asked for it and glad I did! To all of what you offered I would simply respond; you do realize that there are two things that happen on that day:

1. The Son takes His vengeance on the earthly hosts that 1) come against Israel and 2) against every earthly being that actively embraces evil and false deities.

I believe Israel, the only one that counts, is not a rock or a piece of land, but in my view a mindset, a way of life. And that Mt. Zion is God's Church, not a region or piece of earth. And if I turn to God with all my heart, wherever I am on this planet, from there HE will hear me, and not forsake me. (Duet. 4) This is because His Temple is in my mind, not make of wood and stone located in a foreign country that I must go to, in order to know Him, in my view.

Gen. 32: 27 And saying is He to him, "What is your name? And saying is he, "Jacob. 28 And saying is He to him, "Not Jacob shall your name be called longer, but rather Israel is your name. For upright are you with the Elohim and with mortals, and are prevailing. (He loved God, and Love his neighbor, Yes?)

So then, Caleb was true Israel, Yes? Who came against him? David was true Israel, Yes? Who came against him. Stephen was true Israel, Yes? Who came against him? Yeshua was true Israel, Yes? Who came after Him?

Was it not those who "profess that they know God; (Professed to be Israel) but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate".

Rev. 3: 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Because I see Israel in this Light, I understand the Scriptures differently. I don't "watch" the Middle East, it's a distraction from my Whole Duty, (ECC. 12) the purpose of my creation in the first place.

"My end", comes at my death, as a thief in the night. Shall I not watch myself and be ready, lest I be found naked? And if HE returns before I die, shall I not also "be diligent that I may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless"?

1. The Father in Heaven will judge and punish all of the heavenly hosts that rebelled against Him.

Please take a moment to peruse my reply to Divide above or simply click -> HERE. It may help clear up a few points.

Blessing on you Brother! Thanks for coming over and offering your perspective.

Thanks for asking me.

Certainly, the whole "end times" topic has captured the imagination of men for a long time. And there is a "Last Great Day" according to the Feasts of the Lord, of that I am convinced. And the existence of religious men who have studied and convinced themselves they know the truth about the "Return of the Christ", or as some believe, the "Arrival of the Christ", has been recorded since 60-70 AD. In every generation there are religious men who claim to understand the words of Daniel and John who devote countless hours in study and examination of scriptures to unlock the mystery. This is as true today as it was in the time of Simon Bar Giora, in my view.

Matt. 24: 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, "stand in the holy place", (whoso readeth, let him understand

Where is the Holy Place? The Muslim Mosque that stands where the manmade Temple used to be? The Temple that God "Cast off" as promised because its builder turned away from obedience to God and introduced "other gods" into the Temple?

Be careful my friend.

Ecc. 12: 12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh. 13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Should we be convinced that somehow John's spiritual Vision, made void this admonition? Thanks for the invite, it's a great topic.

 

[Yahudim]

I believe Israel, the only one that counts, is not a rock or a piece of land, but in my view a mindset, a way of life. And that Mt. Zion is God's Church, not a region or piece of earth. And if I turn to God with all my heart, wherever I am on this planet, from there HE will hear me, and not forsake me. (Duet. 4) This is because His Temple is in my mind, not make of wood and stone located in a foreign country that I must go to, in order to know Him, in my view.

Gen. 32: 27 And saying is He to him, "What is your name? And saying is he, "Jacob. 28 And saying is He to him, "Not Jacob shall your name be called longer, but rather Israel is your name. For upright are you with the Elohim and with mortals, and are prevailing. (He loved God, and Love his neighbor, Yes?)

So then, Caleb was true Israel, Yes? Who came against him? David was true Israel, Yes? Who came against him. Stephen was true Israel, Yes? Who came against him? Yeshua was true Israel, Yes? Who came after Him?

Was it not those who "profess that they know God; (Professed to be Israel) but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate".

Rev. 3: 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Because I see Israel in this Light, I understand the Scriptures differently. I don't "watch" the Middle East, it's a distraction from my Whole Duty, (ECC. 12) the purpose of my creation in the first place.

"My end", comes at my death, as a thief in the night. Shall I not watch myself and be ready, lest I be found naked? And if HE returns before I die, shall I not also "be diligent that I may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless"?



Thanks for asking me.

Certainly, the whole "end times" topic has captured the imagination of men for a long time. And there is a "Last Great Day" according to the Feasts of the Lord, of that I am convinced. And the existence of religious men who have studied and convinced themselves they know the truth about the "Return of the Christ", or as some believe, the "Arrival of the Christ", has been recorded since 60-70 AD. In every generation there are religious men who claim to understand the words of Daniel and John who devote countless hours in study and examination of scriptures to unlock the mystery. This is as true today as it was in the time of Simon Bar Giora, in my view.

Matt. 24: 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, "stand in the holy place", (whoso readeth, let him understand

Where is the Holy Place? The Muslim Mosque that stands where the manmade Temple used to be? The Temple that God "Cast off" as promised because its builder turned away from obedience to God and introduced "other gods" into the Temple?

Be careful my friend.

Ecc. 12: 12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh. 13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Should we be convinced that somehow John's spiritual Vision, made void this admonition? Thanks for the invite, it's a great topic.

It is true that we are called to be obedient to Him and servants to each other - above all else. On this we agree. But we are also called to seek out the deeper meanings too. He placed them there for us to find, for we are called to judge on this earth, spiritual matters too.

We are told that the Tabernacle on earth is a reflection of the Tabernacle in the heavens. So I'm not sure why you reject the learning more about these things. He instructed His earthly children to construct the Tent of Meeting and all of its accoutrements to very specific detail and dimensions. He orders many things in scripture by Sevens, from the Days of Creation to His Appointed Times to His Calendar and to the Furnishing of His holy Tabernacle. He tells us a great deal about these things, yet leaving much more to be discovered by us.

You seem reluctant to learn about heavenly matters even though we will be called upon to judge angels. We are called upon to cast out evil spirits, etc., and to judge rightly according to His heavenly example. Me thinks we must first meditate on on His Word about such matters and act in faith that He will hear us in Heaven and affect change on our behalf here on earth. 'John's spiritual Vision' did not make void 'this admonition'. It greatly expanded it!

Brother, our responsibilities are not merely earthly responsibilities. I'm sure I could fill the page with verses in support of this view. But I know that you have read the same scriptures as I. You quoted Ecclesiastes, "Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man... Surely you don't believe that His Commandments only pertain to the physical and not the spiritual, no? And if studying is only wearisome, then why did Our Father give this admonish in Joshua 1:8 ?

Whether I am able to dissuade or no, I pray this blesses you. As always, a pleasure exchanging views.

 

[daq]

It is true that we are called to be obedient to Him and servants to each other - above all else. On this we agree. But we are also called to seek out the deeper meanings too. He placed them there for us to find, for we are called to judge on this earth, spiritual matters too.

We are told that the Tabernacle on earth is a reflection of the Tabernacle in the heavens. So I'm not sure why you reject the learning more about these things. He instructed His earthly children to construct the Tent of Meeting and all of its accoutrements to very specific detail and dimensions. He orders many things in scripture by Sevens, from the Days of Creation to His Appointed Times to His Calendar and to the Furnishing of His holy Tabernacle. He tells us a great deal about these things, yet leaving much more to be discovered by us.

You seem reluctant to learn about heavenly matters even though we will be called upon to judge angels. We are called upon to cast out evil spirits, etc., and to judge rightly according to His heavenly example. Me thinks we must first meditate on on His Word about such matters and act in faith that He will hear us in Heaven and affect change on our behalf here on earth. 'John's spiritual Vision' did not make void 'this admonition'. It greatly expanded it!

Brother, our responsibilities are not merely earthly responsibilities. I'm sure I could fill the page with verses in support of this view. But I know that you have read the same scriptures as I. You quoted Ecclesiastes, "Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man... Surely you don't believe that His Commandments only pertain to the physical and not the spiritual, no? And if studying is only wearisome, then why did Our Father give this admonish in Joshua 1:8 ?

Whether I am able to dissuade or no, I pray this blesses you. As always, a pleasure exchanging views.

Regarding a sod understanding I have something to offer concerning these things and this topic. The Hebrew word I alluded to earlier is ma'adan and essentially means delight, and in this case below I see it as pertaining to the Garden of Delight, Gan Eden.

H4574
מַעֲדַנָּה / מַעֲדָן
ma‛ădân / ma‛ădannâh
BDB Definition:
1) dainty (food), delight
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H5727

One amazing thing I have found in my studies is that often times you can take a text and start rendering words as strictly literally as possible and many times a sod understanding will come forth. I was working on this type of exercise in Genesis 2 one day, and realized that the whole discourse on Gan Eden can be seen as the body of a human being, particularly the inward parts, from the heart and mind even to the four rivers of the garden. There are even two trees at the top, in the skull or cranium, (in the sides of the north), like two trees in the midst of the garden. These two trees can also be seen as Krubim, one on the right and one on the left, covering the "place of meeting", (as in Exo 25:21-22). Moreover the bdolach or bdellium is a hint pointing to the manna, (either that or Mosheh is pointing us back to Gen 2 where he mentions the bdolach concerning the manna in Num 11:7), and the bdolach-manna is found in Eretz haHavilah, ("the land of the Circle", (of the heart)), and therein also is the good gold, and the shoham stone or onyx stones, (of the breastplate of righteousness which is worn over the heart). These astonishing things go on and on and on. I cannot post everything here in a single post so I'll just drop the image file here which will explain itself.

Where do dreams and visions take place? In the mind.

 

[Studyman]

It is true that we are called to be obedient to Him and servants to each other - above all else. On this we agree. But we are also called to seek out the deeper meanings too. He placed them there for us to find, for we are called to judge on this earth, spiritual matters too.

We are told that the Tabernacle on earth is a reflection of the Tabernacle in the heavens. So I'm not sure why you reject the learning more about these things. He instructed His earthly children to construct the Tent of Meeting and all of its accoutrements to very specific detail and dimensions. He orders many things in scripture by Sevens, from the Days of Creation to His Appointed Times to His Calendar and to the Furnishing of His holy Tabernacle. He tells us a great deal about these things, yet leaving much more to be discovered by us.

You seem reluctant to learn about heavenly matters even though we will be called upon to judge angels. We are called upon to cast out evil spirits, etc., and to judge rightly according to His heavenly example. Me thinks we must first meditate on on His Word about such matters and act in faith that He will hear us in Heaven and affect change on our behalf here on earth. 'John's spiritual Vision' did not make void 'this admonition'. It greatly expanded it!

Brother, our responsibilities are not merely earthly responsibilities. I'm sure I could fill the page with verses in support of this view. But I know that you have read the same scriptures as I. You quoted Ecclesiastes, "Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man... Surely you don't believe that His Commandments only pertain to the physical and not the spiritual, no? And if studying is only wearisome, then why did Our Father give this admonish in Joshua 1:8 ?

Whether I am able to dissuade or no, I pray this blesses you. As always, a pleasure exchanging views.

And truly these discussions are a blessing for me. And that you would ask me to share my understanding is humbling, and regardless the disagreements which may arise, I am grateful for your kindness and fellowship.

But I would ask what have I promoted that you would dissuade me of? That all God's People have "end times"? That God doesn't dwell in temples made of wood and stone? That the Temple of God exists in the mind of His People? That True Israel has always been of the heart, not of the Flesh? Or that the Prophesied Messiah, who was sent by God, is the perfect example of the perfect Tabernacle here on earth created exactly after the "Pattern on the Mount", which was its purpose in the first place? And this is the Tabernacle which reflects the Tabernacle in Heaven?

Indeed we see Scriptures differently. Even Ecc. 12.

Josh. 1: 8 the book of this law does not depart out of your mouth, and you have meditated in it by day and by night, "so that" (Its purpose) you do observe to "do" according to all that is written in it, for then you do cause your way to prosper, and then you do act wisely.

Ecc. 12:11 The words of the wise are like goad points, And like imbedded bolts for the possessors of gathered sayings They are given "by one shepherd"." 12 Yet furthermore, my son, "from "adding" to these", "be warned"; Of the making of many scrolls there is no end, And much study is weariness to the flesh.

13 The terminus of the whole matter has been heard: (From the ONE Shepherd, Yes? From the Book of the Law, Yes?) Fear the One, Elohim, and keep His instructions, For this is the whole duty of humanity." 14 For the One, Elohim, shall bring every deed into judgment concerning all that is obscured, Whether good or whether evil."

Every religious sect on the Planet has their own preferred religious philosophers that they adopt, with their books, (scrolls) sermons, u-tube videos etc. There is no end to them. The Pharisees had Gamaliel and later the Jews with their Pseudepigrapha, Talmud, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Targums the homiletic, exegetic, and apocalyptic midrashim, the Zohar, and the medieval rabbis, the list goes on and on and on. Truly there is no end to these "ADDED" books. The RCC and her daughters are no different. From the Council of Niciah, the dictates of Constantine, Valentinus, the books and sermons of the reformers, Huss, Calvin, Wesley, Arminius Miller, White, Russell, smith, the list goes on and on and on.

Yet, it seems you are interpreting Ecc. 12 as teaching that studying the "Book of the Law", where the Commandments and instructions of God are found, is what is weary to the Flesh? And used Joshua to justify studying and learning from all the "added" literature. When clearly it is all the "ADDED" dictation which you and I both know exists, that Ecc. is Warning us about.

But there is an end of the books given us by the One Shepherd, which has pretty much remained the same since before western civilization even existed.

I know how difficult it is on a public forum to hash these things out, there are peers and others reading along, the pride of man and so forth. Surely, I know of these things being plagued with them myself.

What I hope for my brother, is that in the confines of your own home, when no one but God is looking you might consider just this Ecc. verse, and consider why you and I look at it differently. I think you will find that in most all of our division of understanding, it isn't because of ANYTHING actually written in Scriptures that cause this difference of perception. But from dictations teachings and philosophies of men who profess to know God.

Thank you again for the blessings.

 

[Yahudim]

It has always puzzled me that those believers that call the Son of Our Father in Heaven, 'The Word', don't understand that it means, 'The Word of Our Father in Heaven' OR that it alluded to the fact that His Son would keep His Word, His Torah, His Father's instructions, perfectly! This is of course, the same Torah given from Mt Sinai to the Children of Israel AND the so called, 'mixed multitude'; y'know, all those people from all those nations that weren't of the Children of Israel or even of Abraham...???

By the time of Messiah Y'shua and His Disciples, the only scriptures to be found were in the TaNaK scrolls. DSS discoveries demonstrate that these included far more than what has eventually survived the greed and avarice of the Hasmonean imposters to the Priesthood and the perverted traditions of the Pharisaic 'teachers' and the political excesses of the Herodian (read: Edomite) scribes and the lawyers and the unimaginable and wonton atrocities of the Greek and Roman conquerors.

The letters from the Messiah's students quoted the scriptures to validate their instructions to the uninitiated. But their letters, in and of themselves, were not 'scripture', yet have been 'canonized' as such. The traditions of man and 'The Church' have supplanted the Holy Word of Our Creator.

So here we are, 2000 years later, and the same people that have no concept of the context from which those ancient scrolls were recorded then eisegesically project their own traditions, culture, philosophy and preconceived notions onto said scripture without even the basest understanding the who, what, when, where, and why of those same writings.

We take the scriptures of a people of radically different locations, languages, cultures and histories than our own and claim to understand it. We take the word of people that have political, monetary and personal motivations that would twist it to their own ends. We create a 'canon' that has been demonstrated to have additions, deletions and fictional commentary alterations passed off as original text - as the foundation of their understanding. We then form traditions based on these perversions and elevate these traditions of man above the Word of the most High!

I say 'we' because I once believed all these things too. But the more I studied these ancient peoples and their cultures, their languages and the histories, I came to be far less trusting of the traditions and teachings that the 'church' would have me swallow.

The most important thing I have found in my walk with the Lord is context. Context is the only means we have of distinguishing between a prooftext and a pretext. Anyone can take a word or phrase out of context and make it mean anything they like. Such is the foundation of politics and the workings of the father of lies.