Dave Ellis
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"Right now"...yes.
The brilliance of a sting, is that it only catches those who do not perceive it.
The brilliance of a straw man, is that only those who don't recognize it's a straw man think a good point was made.
DittoThe brilliance of a straw man, is that only those who don't recognize it's a straw man think a good point was made.
It has been a long thread. I'll let "John" answer:
“[To] all my Atheist friends.
Let us stop sugar coating it. I know, it’s hard to come out and be blunt with the friendly Theists who frequent sites like this. However in your efforts to “play nice” and “be civil” you actually do them a great disservice.
We are Atheists. We believe that the Universe is a great uncaused, random accident. All life in the Universe past and future are the results of random chance acting on itself. While we acknowledge concepts like morality, politeness, civility seem to exist, we know they do not. Our highly evolved brains imagine that these things have a cause or a use, and they have in the past, they’ve allowed life to continue on this planet for a short blip of time. But make no mistake: all our dreams, loves, opinions, and desires are figments of our primordial imagination. They are fleeting electrical signals that fire across our synapses for a moment in time. They served some purpose in the past. They got us here. That’s it. All human achievement and plans for the future are the result of some ancient, evolved brain and accompanying chemical reactions that once served a survival purpose. Ex: I’ll marry and nurture children because my genes demand reproduction, I’ll create because creativity served a survival advantage to my ancient ape ancestors, I’ll build cities and laws because this allowed my ape grandfather time and peace to reproduce and protect his genes. My only directive is to obey my genes. Eat, sleep, reproduce, die. That is our bible.
We deride the Theists for having created myths and holy books. We imagine ourselves superior. But we too imagine there are reasons to obey laws, be polite, protect the weak etc. Rubbish. We are nurturing a new religion, one where we imagine that such conventions have any basis in reality. Have they allowed life to exist? Absolutely. But who cares? Outside of my greedy little gene’s need to reproduce, there is nothing in my world that stops me from killing you and reproducing with your wife. Only the fear that I might be incarcerated and thus be deprived of the opportunity to do the same with the next guy’s wife stops me. Some of my Atheist friends have fooled themselves into acting like the general population. They live in suburban homes, drive Toyota Camrys, attend school plays. But underneath they know the truth. They are a bag of DNA whose only purpose is to make more of themselves. So be nice if you want. Be involved, have polite conversations, be a model citizen. Just be aware that while technically an Atheist, you are an inferior one. You’re just a little bit less evolved, that’s all. When you are ready to join me, let me know, I’ll be reproducing with your wife.
I know it’s not PC to speak so bluntly about the ramifications of our beliefs, but in our discussions with Theists we sometimes tip toe around what we really know to be factual. Maybe it’s time we Atheists were a little more truthful and let the chips fall where they may. At least that’s what my genes are telling me to say.”
Source: http://coldcasechristianity.com/2014/the-inevitable-consequence-of-an-atheistic-worldview/
It has been a long thread. I'll let "John" answer:
“[To] all my Atheist friends.
Let us stop sugar coating it. I know, it’s hard to come out and be blunt with the friendly Theists who frequent sites like this. However in your efforts to “play nice” and “be civil” you actually do them a great disservice.
We are Atheists. We believe that the Universe is a great uncaused, random accident. All life in the Universe past and future are the results of random chance acting on itself. While we acknowledge concepts like morality, politeness, civility seem to exist, we know they do not. Our highly evolved brains imagine that these things have a cause or a use, and they have in the past, they’ve allowed life to continue on this planet for a short blip of time. But make no mistake: all our dreams, loves, opinions, and desires are figments of our primordial imagination. They are fleeting electrical signals that fire across our synapses for a moment in time. They served some purpose in the past. They got us here. That’s it. All human achievement and plans for the future are the result of some ancient, evolved brain and accompanying chemical reactions that once served a survival purpose. Ex: I’ll marry and nurture children because my genes demand reproduction, I’ll create because creativity served a survival advantage to my ancient ape ancestors, I’ll build cities and laws because this allowed my ape grandfather time and peace to reproduce and protect his genes. My only directive is to obey my genes. Eat, sleep, reproduce, die. That is our bible.
We deride the Theists for having created myths and holy books. We imagine ourselves superior. But we too imagine there are reasons to obey laws, be polite, protect the weak etc. Rubbish. We are nurturing a new religion, one where we imagine that such conventions have any basis in reality. Have they allowed life to exist? Absolutely. But who cares? Outside of my greedy little gene’s need to reproduce, there is nothing in my world that stops me from killing you and reproducing with your wife. Only the fear that I might be incarcerated and thus be deprived of the opportunity to do the same with the next guy’s wife stops me. Some of my Atheist friends have fooled themselves into acting like the general population. They live in suburban homes, drive Toyota Camrys, attend school plays. But underneath they know the truth. They are a bag of DNA whose only purpose is to make more of themselves. So be nice if you want. Be involved, have polite conversations, be a model citizen. Just be aware that while technically an Atheist, you are an inferior one. You’re just a little bit less evolved, that’s all. When you are ready to join me, let me know, I’ll be reproducing with your wife.
I know it’s not PC to speak so bluntly about the ramifications of our beliefs, but in our discussions with Theists we sometimes tip toe around what we really know to be factual. Maybe it’s time we Atheists were a little more truthful and let the chips fall where they may. At least that’s what my genes are telling me to say.”
Source: http://coldcasechristianity.com/2014/the-inevitable-consequence-of-an-atheistic-worldview/
Ditto
I'll let "John" answer
How does theism fix epistemological issues? For example, we know, for a fact, that our faculties are faulty. This fact would hold true whether theism is true or not.
Which brings us right back to one of the first questions I ever asked you, one that you never have answered.I like this question!
How did we come to know that fact if indeed our faculties are faulty?
It seems our faculties are perfect for determining what's true, but we didn't make our faculties ourselves, either God did or nature did.
What purpose does nature have in making beings with perfect faculties for determining what's true? ...There would be no purpose, no reason, no meaning.
If we are the result natural processes then there is no reason for why or how we can determine true things, which means the true things we do determine are meaningless.
What purpose does God have in making beings with perfect faculties for determining what's true? ...if God is infinite then there would be an infinite amount of reasons for doing so which equals life with infinite meaning or simply eternal life from God.
I like this question!
How did we come to know that fact if indeed our faculties are faulty?
It seems our faculties are perfect for determining what's true
, but we didn't make our faculties ourselves, either God did or nature did.
What purpose does nature have in making beings with perfect faculties for determining what's true?
...There would be no purpose, no reason, no meaning.
If we are the result natural processes then there is no reason for why or how we can determine true things, which means the true things we do determine are meaningless.
What purpose does God have in making beings with perfect faculties for determining what's true?
...if God is infinite then there would be an infinite amount of reasons for doing so which equals life with infinite meaning or simply eternal life from God.
Which brings us right back to one of the first questions I ever asked you, one that you never have answered.
How would you know if you were wrong?
Why wouldn't it matter? Your beliefs shape your actions, which have real consequences, both for you and for others. So it does matter whether you are wrong or right. Presumably you don't cross the street thinking, "If I'm a result of natural processes, then it doesn't matter if I'm wrong or right about the likelihood of oncoming traffic." No, you look both ways before crossing.If I'm a result of natural processes then it doesn't matter if I'm wrong or right.
Objective evidence. The kind of research that isn't dependend on our faculties. Or at the very least, minimizes the dependence thereof.
For example... my faculties might inform me that I am breathing clean air and that everything is a-okay. But at the same time, a technological device might inform me that I'm actually being bombarded by lethal amounts of radiation instead.
Because I like to believe as many true things as pssible.You're still relying on your faulty faculties to determine that what the tech is telling you is actually true. So either our faculties are too faulty to even determine what's true or we can actually determine what's true despite the faults in our faculties.
I think the latter is true, otherwise why even try to determine what's true?
Why wouldn't it matter? Your beliefs shape your actions, which have real consequences, both for you and for others. So it does matter whether you are wrong or right. Presumably you don't cross the street thinking, "If I'm a result of natural processes, then it doesn't matter if I'm wrong or right about the likelihood of oncoming traffic." No, you look both ways before crossing.
It seems that you've answered your own conundrum. We're alive. We're not indifferent. And we care.I'm not the one saying that it's true that there is no plan or purpose for the existence of life on earth.
I think there is a plan and a purpose and this is why things matter.
If there is no plan or purpose for the existence of life on earth, then why do our actions matter? We could all go extinct from a nuclear disaster and it literally would not matter to anyone after we're all dead.
Sure, before everyone dies the person responsible for the disaster could be punished, but what's the point after everyone is dead? No point.
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