Arguments against evolution?

[Loudmouth]

I guess I part company with some Creationists in that I wouldn't even presume to try to prove creation by scientific means. However, I do reserve the right to draw my own conclusions from what I observe. Based upon my beliefs? Absolutely.

So you admit that young earth creationism is non-scientific? Is YEC based on faith alone? You may want to tell other YEC's this, they seem to think that all of the scientific data supports a young earth, it is only misinterpreted by evolutionists.

I look at the disrespect that I was shown for voicing my opinion in this forum here a few days ago. My honesty was questioned, as was my intellectual capacity. Sneering and flaming people doesn't make your point to me, it just displays your own conciet.

How about telling scientists that even though they have spent years in school and years in the lab, it still gives them no right to speak about science or what evidence in the natural world points to. They have no right only because it conflicts with your religious beliefs. Do you consider this conceited? I sure do. Instead of taking criticisms personally, maybe you should rethink your logic and evidence instead of spitting back flames of your own.

Evolutionists reach conclusions about thier findings based on either their belief that evolution can be proven or because of pressure to find evidence that can support the theory from slipping away. Evidence that doesn't fit the model they are looking for will be ignored or even misrepresented. It happens. There is money and potential prestege in it.

Sorry, but some of what you just wrote are absolute lies. Evolution is tested by the evidence, not simply believed. The fact that evolution has survived these tests is why scientists accept the theory as the best explanation for species diversity. Notice I said accept, not believe.

Please point me to the data that falsifies evolution. Creationists always talk about it, but never show it. In a debate, this is a very dishonest practice. Either you have it or you don't. Show the evidence or retract the statement. I am a scientist too. Being accused of doctoring data or holding back falsifying data is one of the greatest sins in our line of work. If you accuse a scientists of either of these things, you had better be able to back it up.

Thirdly, the greatest money and prestige one could hope for is waiting for the person that falsifies the theories of evolution. This person would be even more famous than Darwin is now. A Nobel Prize would be a certainty. Sorry, every person familiar with the history of science understands this. Maybe you should read more about the history of science and the discovery of new theories.

Where's the evidence??? Where is it? Hidden in texts in colleges around the world? Why isn't it presented to those of us who are not scientists? We can't understand it? Are all evolutionist-believers that much more intelligent than those who don't buy it? A lot of you speak out of arrogance to those who believe in creation like they're idiots. So where's your proof of anything changing from one species to another?

To understand science you have to be educated in science. This doesn't mean you have to have a degree in biology, self taught scientists have actually made substantial contributions in the past. If you want examples of speciation go here, and here. Speciation has been observed. Among most scientists, this is considered macroevolution, since speciation is the only known barrier to evolution.

There isn't any and there never will be. It doesn't exist. Yet you go on buying the artist renderings generated from tiny fossil fragments. Later, when they are discerned to be from a pig or an extinct species of ape, you still point to them in texts and say; "See? There's proof!". If you're so disgusted with bad science, better look in your own back yard.

Again, you are claiming that scientists are cooking data. Prove it or retract this statement. Hoaxes will occur, I agree. However, those hoaxes have always been sniffed out by other evolutionists. Not one creationists has exposed a doctored fossil before an evolutionist has. So again, show me how the thousands upon thousands of fossils are fakes or are connected to misleading illustrations.

I'm through reading in this forum. Reads like any broken record evolutionist forum aside from occasional glimmers of light from reasonable minds. Some aren't intellectually honest enough, or maybe not bright enough, to even admit that they ascribe to a belief system or that I have just as much right to ascribe to mine. It has been fed to them since they were young children and they can't even seem to discern that they follow it like sheep. IMO

Tata, another YEC that can't scientifically back up their belief system. They only recourse they have is to call scientists liars and claim that science is a religion. This seems to be the only evidence that YEC's can dig up.

I have many friends and family who believe in evolution too, yet they aren't as smug as some of you have been. In a way, some of your attitudes are the strongest evidence I have yet seen in support of evolution. Hmmm..., I'll have to give that some thought.

Darth Vader did reject the Dark Side in the end. Maybe there is still hope.

Just a note to YEC's. Calling scientists liars will not score you any points. You had better be able to back up your accusations with actual proof. Otherwise, don't even make the statements to begin with. It just makes you look like a fool, and it is bearing false witness to boot.


"There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact."
Mark Twain

Puff out.[/QUOTE]

 

[rjw]

Hello Puff Father,

You wrote:-

"Where's the evidence??? Where is it? Hidden in texts in colleges around the world? Why isn't it presented to those of us who are not scientists? We can't understand it? Are all evolutionist-believers that much more intelligent than those who don't buy it? A lot of you speak out of arrogance to those who believe in creation like they're idiots. So where's your proof of anything changing from one species to another?"

I read an awful lot of scientific literature.

The evidence abounds for both micro and macro. It is not hidden in texts in colleges around the world. Here in Australia most texts deal adequately with evolution and discuss the evidence for it. It is presented to people through magazines, radio and television. It is not shied away from – rather it is reasonably well accepted.

I can understand evolution. Perhaps most people do not understand it. But then most people would not understand how a virus causes disease, how stars shine, what causes the earth’s magnetic field etc. - they have other interests.

No, evos are not more intelligent that creos. However, I have exchanged letters with several scientists at AiG and engaged many YECs on these boards. I have found YECs terribly evasive, “good” at misrepresenting and unable to argue for creation or against evolution. The evolution they argue against is generally not the evolution from the text books. They do not argue for YEC creation because it is essentially without evidence. As a result their arguments inevitably rely on them attempting to destroy their own misconceived version of evolution.

I suspect they pick up these habits from creation scientists who are unable to argue any better themselves.

Many evos are abusive. However, I have found many creos just as abusive. I do find that creos (not all), tend to be very arrogant. Thus, with a smattering of relevant education they appear to think they know better and more than experts who have spent decades studying a subject – be it astronomy, paleontology, geology etc. Not only is there that streak of arrogance but creos appear very quick to judge – particularly others as not being Christian.

Abuse does flow two ways.

Regards, Roland

 

[USincognito]

There isn't any and there never will be. It doesn't exist. Yet you go on buying the artist renderings generated from tiny fossil fragments. Later, when they are discerned to be from a pig or an extinct species of ape, you still point to them in texts and say; "See? There's proof!". If you're so disgusted with bad science, better look in your own back yard.

I'm through reading in this forum. Reads like any broken record evolutionist forum aside from occasional glimmers of light from reasonable minds. Some aren't intellectually honest enough, or maybe not bright enough, to even admit that they ascribe to a belief system or that I have just as much right to ascribe to mine. It has been fed to them since they were young children and they can't even seem to discern that they follow it like sheep. IMO

I missed this gem of ironic juxtoposition earlier - Allusions to the Nebraka man PRATT and a claim of repeating errors. Priceless.

 

[feo]

Whats Ironic: Was Before i Joined CF's... i Was Very Pro-Creationism. The More i Read About This, The More Evolution Makes Sense. Ironically, it Has Brought me Closer to God. Who am i to Put limits to The Ways God Works, or interpret his Word in a Literal Manner?

I'm Curious on What to Read to Get more information. i Dont Have Much of a Science Background (took a chem For engineers class, kinda Simple With a little o-chem in it..) my Field of study Requires LOTS of Physics... But Nothing More Outta The Other Sciences. With This Limited Background, Whats Good to Read... without Knowing a Lot About Bio or Chm, in Regards to The Creation of Life?

 

[USincognito]

Well, evolution doesn't deal with the Creation of life. You might want to just re-read Genesis and interpret it as your concious leads you. If you want to read about evolution of already existing life. Check out the Index at Talk Origins. There you will find various articles, some very simple, some quite complex, regarding issues relating to evolution and creationism. The articles will often have links off site to the papers cites in them so you can delve deeper into specific issues you wish to investigate.

Once you've got the basics down you should have a reading list and it'll be time to hit the library.

 

[Tomas K]

Feo, reading "On the origin of species by the means of natural selection" would probably be a good idea. Some parts of it are outdated since DNA wasn't discovered back then but it's a very good and easy thing to read for someone who's intrested in biology but lacks formal education.

 

[nyj]

Mama mia.

 

[nyj]

Folks, please please pretty please, do not quote trolls. Just report them. When you quote them, I have to edit their post and the posts of every person who quoted them, to get rid of the trollish comments.

 

[nyj]

Re-opened.

 

[Jet Black]

Where's the evidence??? Where is it? Hidden in texts in colleges around the world? Why isn't it presented to those of us who are not scientists? We can't understand it? Are all evolutionist-believers that much more intelligent than those who don't buy it? A lot of you speak out of arrogance to those who believe in creation like they're idiots. So where's your proof of anything changing from one species to another?

To be honest, probably a good majority of people who believe (and in this case I do mean believe) in evolution probably know next to nothing about it, though the besis of their belief is more along the lines that it is a scientific theory and scientists are clever people, so we will just trust what the scientists say. Other than that, many of them will have little basis for actually accepting evolution, and put in a room and told to justify themselves, they probably wouldn't do very well. The difference of course, is that most of the evolutionists, theists, atheists or otherwise, who post here, do actually know a good bit of what they are talking about, and so have access to lots of data and facts. Those data and facts are also available to you, they are not kept hidden from you, but it really does require effort to delve into these things and properly understand them for yourself, and critical analyses of what people say. By that I mean critical analyses of both sides of the argument. This however does mean a good understanding of much of the science behind what is going on, and that requires time, perseverence and education. It is not above most people however, I feel.

 

[SVRP]

To be honest, probably a good majority of people who believe (and in this case I do mean believe) in evolution probably know next to nothing about it, though the besis of their belief is more along the lines that it is a scientific theory and scientists are clever people, so we will just trust what the scientists say. Other than that, many of them will have little basis for actually accepting evolution, and put in a room and told to justify themselves, they probably wouldn't do very well.

I agree with you, Jet Black. For instance, in 1981 Colin Patterson, the senior paleontologist from the British Museum of Natural History was recorded in New York as saying: “One of the reasons I started taking this anti-evolutionary view was…it struck me that I had been working on this stuff for twenty years and there was not one thing I knew about it. That’s quite a shock to learn that one can be so misled so long. …So for the last few weeks I’ve tried putting a simple question to various people and groups of people. Question is: Can you tell me anything you know about evolution, any one thing that is true? I tried that question on the geology staff at the Field Museum of Natural History and the only answer I got was silence. I tried it on the members of the Evolutionary Morphology Seminar in the University of Chicago, a very prestigious body of evolutionists, and all I got there was silence for a long time and eventually one person said, ‘I do know one thing – it ought not to be taught in high school’.” (Keynote address at the American Museum of Natural History, Dr. Colin Patterson, New York City, November 5, 1981)

 

[ThePhoenix]

I agree with you, Jet Black. For instance, in 1981 Colin Patterson, the senior paleontologist from the British Museum of Natural History was recorded in New York as saying: “One of the reasons I started taking this anti-evolutionary view was…it struck me that I had been working on this stuff for twenty years and there was not one thing I knew about it. That’s quite a shock to learn that one can be so misled so long. …So for the last few weeks I’ve tried putting a simple question to various people and groups of people. Question is: Can you tell me anything you know about evolution, any one thing that is true? I tried that question on the geology staff at the Field Museum of Natural History and the only answer I got was silence. I tried it on the members of the Evolutionary Morphology Seminar in the University of Chicago, a very prestigious body of evolutionists, and all I got there was silence for a long time and eventually one person said, ‘I do know one thing – it ought not to be taught in high school’.” (Keynote address at the American Museum of Natural History, Dr. Colin Patterson, New York City, November 5, 1981)

http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/postmonth/nov99.html

Well I personally think that questioning a group of geologists on evolutionary theory is stupider then anyone has a right to be. Hello, geology is not biology. Now if you were to ask geologists proof for an old earth, well look out, cause they're coming your way. As for the rest: See the talk origins link. One good quote mine deserves a googled response.