Arguments about God

-Vincent- said:

Well, I am not schizophrenic. But, why is it that you choose to insult me with the question? I have not insulted you.

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It's a legitimate question when someone displays the symptoms of schizophrenia. Would you rather us be unconcerned with your well-being?

Wiccan_Child said:

It's a legitimate question when someone displays the symptoms of schizophrenia. Would you rather us be unconcerned with your well-being?

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I give up. Jesus said do not cast your pearls before swine, and he was so very right. Now that you have shown symptoms of being a pig, should I ask you about that?

-Vincent- said:

I give up. Jesus said do not cast your pearls before swine, and he was so very right. Now that you have shown symptoms of being a pig, should I ask you about that?

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You're telling us god talks to you. This is widely considered a completely crazy thing to say. But if you'd rather not cast your pearls to us pigs, you know where the little red box with the X is.

-Vincent- said:

I give up. Jesus said do not cast your pearls before swine, and he was so very right. Now that you have shown symptoms of being a pig, should I ask you about that?

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Pigs are highly intelligent and emotional animals that have a very similar physiology to ours. So in fact calling someone a pig is a COMPLIMENT!
You are welcome to call me a pig any time

Well,

Considering no other people who claim to know God are coming forward and simply leaving poor Vincent to his fate in this thread, I'll jump in and take some of the crazy heat off of him.

I believe I know God personally.
However I have never heard his voice in my head. I was an atheist until my early 30's when I believe I "felt" Gods presence.

Before that time I didn't think God could exist and then I was overcome with a spontaneous burst of emotion that "to me" wasn't something I had invoked.

It was far to overwhelming and instantaneous to have simply been an emotion I generated on my own. Which felt like something completely foreign to me. Foreign meaning, it didn't come from me and it wasn't mine but rather an emotion of God's that he shared with me to introduce himself.

Inviolable said:

Well,

Considering no other people who claim to know God are coming forward and simply leaving poor Vincent to his fate in this thread, I'll jump in and take some of the crazy heat off of him.

I believe I know God personally.
However I have never heard his voice in my head. I was an atheist until my early 30's when I believe I "felt" Gods presence.

Before that time I didn't think God could exist and then I was overcome with a spontaneous burst of emotion that "to me" wasn't something I had invoked.

It was far to overwhelming and instantaneous to have simply been an emotion I generated on my own. Which felt like something completely foreign to me. Foreign meaning, it didn't come from me and it wasn't mine but rather an emotion of God's that he shared with me to introduce himself.

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Sounds like your mind has gotten the better of you. But whether that's true or not, you're not here telling us that you know everything about god and you literally heard him speak.

-Vincent- said:

I give up. Jesus said do not cast your pearls before swine, and he was so very right. Now that you have shown symptoms of being a pig, should I ask you about that?

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About being a pig? Vincent, all I have done is submit your testimony to scrutiny, to better understand it and your logic.

Inviolable said:

I believe I know God personally.
However I have never heard his voice in my head. I was an atheist until my early 30's when I believe I "felt" Gods presence.

Before that time I didn't think God could exist and then I was overcome with a spontaneous burst of emotion that "to me" wasn't something I had invoked.

It was far to overwhelming and instantaneous to have simply been an emotion I generated on my own.

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Says who?

I've had spontaneous bursts of emotion myself, but why should that convince me of the existence of God (let alone which god)?

Inviolable said:

Which felt like something completely foreign to me. Foreign meaning, it didn't come from me and it wasn't mine but rather an emotion of God's that he shared with me to introduce himself.

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Spontaneously and out-of-the-blue?

Wiccan_Child said:

About being a pig? Vincent, all I have done is submit your testimony to scrutiny, to better understand it and your logic.

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Well, I would suppose that you have read the bible. You may have read that God spoke the ten commandments to all of the people of Israel. And, that meant nothing to you, so you haven't changed at all. You do not seem to have any ability to trust. I doubt I can do anything to change that. Well, enough of me and my delusions.

What of your wiccan oppinions, what's that all about?

Wiccan_Child said:

Says who?
I've had spontaneous bursts of emotion myself, but why should that convince me of the existence of God (let alone which god)?

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I guess, I say. I use to be manic bipolar. Depressive, whatever the term is.
I've had highs and lows and this feeling was neither.
It's also been 5 years since I've had a bipolar episode.
Since that day.

Spontaneously and out-of-the-blue?

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Um, yes.
It was completely uncalled for. No reason whatsoever for me to feel the way I did when I did.

I wrote down what happened for some friends
Here is what I wrote to them.
I use the word "you" a lot because I thought it would help me write everything down faster.
I hope you enjoy.

You ever have a feeling or emotion that you cant understand or figure out?
Something that can overwhelm you but the thought of how to describe it evades you.

I'm sure in one form or another someone can compare something that has happened to them that they could not explain.
At least at first.

I would like to try and describe the sensation of being in a depressive bipolar state. It boggles me and I would like to get it out.
It's destructive and I would like to lose it completely, once and for all. The thought of it, just the thought, looms over you.

It's a hallow feeling, deep and brooding. Your chest feels has if it disappears, has if it had been swallowed whole by nothing.
The entire cavity around your heart fades into a hole and that hole feels has if anything can pass through it.

When you feel the hole in your chest, you begin to notice emotions flair. Depression of the worse kind.
Fear, sadness, sorrow, anxiety. Anything related to depression seems to spontaneously emerge all at once.
This feeling becomes so overpowering that every other emotion you could have goes away.
The overpowering feeling of depression blots out everything and you become empty. Like a vessel waiting for life and not expecting any.

After the feeling of depression has completely set in, insanity begins to take over.
You wonder, how could life be worth going through this kind of pain? You begin to think of suicide, just to get it to stop.
But you can't get it to stop, because you're sick and it's part of who you are.

There is no way to control it. It doesn't matter what you think, or who you see, or where you go. The depression stays with you.

Doctors will give you lithium to control it chemically. It stops the depression for the most part. But it takes away everything else has well. With lithium the feeling in your chest goes away and the depression becomes a shadow. Constantly stalking you. The depression is no longer in you, but it is still controlling you.
The lithium itself dulls your mind and blots out any emotion. Not completely robbing you of your emotions, but turning you into a overly mellow simpleton. Clouding your mind and forcing you to forget exactly what emotions are. Leaving you with a vague idea of love and happiness. The problem is, the vague idea of happiness is ever eluding and to complicated to work out in your mind.

Yet again, insanity begins to sink in. You begin to wonder, what the point is of living if you have to live like this.
Soon, you'll do anything to be able to make a rational thought. Even let the depression catch back up with you.
So, you stop taking lithium and the process starts all over again.

You get desperate for a solution. Something that will help you to stay clear headed and keep the depression away.
You go from doctor to doctor looking for answers. Each time you see a new doctor you try a new drug and each time you try a new drug something else happens that you can not live with.
So you look for organizations and has many different therapist has you can find looking for answers. Looking for something, some where, hoping there is a drug that no one knows about. You begin to grasp on to anything that sounds promising.
You try several treatments and several more drugs only to realize nothing works. Nothing can help you.

Your life is ruined all because of who you are. Utterly destroyed. With no hope you give up entirely and resort to live out your life with no desire to live.

This is when you don't even consider a place to live to be important. You live on the street.
Moving from place to place. Staying with one friend after the other, until finally you find yourself in a homeless shelter.

Being forced into the cold, some days reaching -10 below, with a windchill of 30 below. You just walk only knowing that you're cold and not even caring all that much about it.
Has you're walking, your mind lost and the simple sight of the things around you being to much to look at you notice the words "all are welcome".

Thats when you see a church and you decide to go inside.
You notice the warmth inside and are surprised that it's comforting. You sit down and stair at the back of the seats in front of you, all the while someone is preaching. Has the words echo in your head has simple noise only slightly resembling a person speaking, you look at your surroundings. A stained glass window catches your eye. You look at it admiring the color not knowing that you are in fact admiring something.
Thats when the noise echoing in your head become words. You hear what the preacher is saying and the hole in your chest goes away. You notice that the hole is gone and another feeling begins to swell inside. At first, you know what it is but you don't understand it. It's compassion in the form of joy. Suddenly you're hit with unspeakable gratitude. Joy, pure, wonderful joy. It's so very rare in your life to have this feeling that the sudden gratitude you get from having this joy is beyond any explanation.
All you can do is cry. You repeat over and over again, thank you!
With out warning, you know what life is and the gratitude grows, even when you thought it was impossible for it to get any stronger. For the first time in a very long time you feel the warmth of your heart beating and you recognize it has your heart.
The tears fall has your heart beats and the cold goes completely away. You begin to perspire but you don't take off your coat because you are so overcome with joy that all you can do is admire it.

The preacher stops preaching and you leave the church and begin life.

Allow me to just add, cut it out with the insults! How old are you?
Inviolable, I think the feeling you're talking about is reverence of life and being. The sheer joy of living. I do wonder who you're thanking, you felt this feeling yourself, no god did it for you. Sudden realisation, nothing matters, you are life, and life is in you.
THAT, is what you felt... and you created the feeling yourself...

Legion.As.One said:

Allow me to just add, cut it out with the insults! How old are you?
Inviolable, I think the feeling you're talking about is reverence of life and being. The sheer joy of living. I do wonder who you're thanking, you felt this feeling yourself, no god did it for you. Sudden realisation, nothing matters, you are life, and life is in you.
THAT, is what you felt... and you created the feeling yourself...

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Unless I'm mistaken, that's just a belief you yourself have.
Can you back that up?
Which, you didn't really quote the post and point out where you came to this conclusion. You simply sprang it on me.

Also,
I really don't see where a feeling I influenced is going to control a manic bipolar state. Over the course of 5 years and several doctors "so far" have agreed with me.
Several being 5.

You said, "nothing matters" I don't know if you've ever experienced a manic depressive state before but I was already to the point where nothing mattered. Had been for two years.

I can indeed, does not all joy come from the original source. A.K.A. Life?
When a child is born. Its mother loves it, and thanks (maybe god) for it. But she has truly given thanks to life for the opportunity.
I blind man can see, life gave him the chance.
Life gives humans chances, choices, feeling. It also takes these away.

As a person with -undisclosed - mental problems myself, I live for feeling, life as a human gives me feeling. Last time I checked, I caused these feelings through MY actions and choices.

(my apologies for the randomness, I should have warned you...)

Legion.As.One said:

I can indeed, does not all joy come from the original source. A.K.A. Life?
When a child is born. Its mother loves it, and thanks (maybe god) for it. But she has truly given thanks to life for the opportunity.
I blind man can see, life gave him the chance.
Life gives humans chances, choices, feeling. It also takes these away.

As a person with -undisclosed - mental problems myself, I live for feeling, life as a human gives me feeling. Last time I checked, I caused these feelings through MY actions and choices.

(my apologies for the randomness, I should have warned you...)

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Randomness is fine. I've lived with it for a long long time.

You say, "you cause these feelings" I certainly didn't cause such a sadness in myself that I wanted to die. There was no cause and effect. It simply existed within me. As I said, it was who I use to be.
The feeling itself may have caused more harm as I felt overwhelmingly defective. However, to make myself as clear as possible.
There were no events that took place, I simply was manic.

So while you might be able to explain the joy, if in fact you can?
You certainly can't explain the sadness. Other then a chemical reaction which is well documented.

I'd also like to point out that I haven't been on any medication in the past 5 years and I've been just fine.

Joy is from giving - among various other things. Sadness, is much more. It is no event, it just is. Where there is joy there is always sadness. Sadness wells up, building and building. It is nothing like joy, which can be stripped away in a moment.
Your conscious mind didn't cause it, I assume. But your physical self did?

I can't explain why I suddenly feel like dying, or why I want to burn everything on this earth or I feel like growing wings to fly. The feeling leaves as soon as it came.

I can't explain yourself to you, obviously, when I can't explain myself to me. I read and translate, which is what I was doing with your previous, previous post.
I agree you're right about my explination, (I got ahead of myself in the spur the moment).

As a christian you no doubt believe your god created you.
I have made no claim to explain anything, for I know full well I can explain nothing.

(well done with your medication, it is always pleasing to hear people overcome problems
)

-Vincent- said:

Well, I would suppose that you have read the bible. You may have read that God spoke the ten commandments to all of the people of Israel. And, that meant nothing to you, so you haven't changed at all.

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The words were just that: words. The various religious texts of the world, while occasionally beautiful, don't get any special treatment in the "Should I believe this?" department simply because they're old and religious.

-Vincent- said:

You do not seem to have any ability to trust.

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Of course I can trust. But I don't trust anything that happens to cross my path: trust is earned.

-Vincent- said:

I doubt I can do anything to change that.

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I'm a scientist. Give me a reason to believe something, and I'll believe it. Is that so unreasonable?

-Vincent- said:

What of your wiccan oppinions, what's that all about?

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I'm not sure I understand the question.

-Vincent- said:

What difference does it make? God will answer anyones sincere prayer, schizophrenic or not. He can respond to you, and that is the only important thing that you need to know from me.

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This is a pretty misleading argument used by Christians. On the surface, it sounds like a falsifiable argument. It is said by Christians that if one prays sincerely, then their god will answer. So, this claim is falsifiable because if this god does not answer, then it is shown that the original claim was incorrect. If this god does answer, however, then it shows the original claim was true.

However, Christians who make this claim turn it into an unfalsifiable argument by ignoring any sincere prayer attempts that prove to be without a reciprocating effect from this god. If one says, "I tried many years of sincere praying, but got no answer." then just about every Christian I have seen that makes this original claim will respond by either implying or stating directly that the person was either not sincere in their prayer or not listening.

So the claim that a sincere prayer will result in an answer from the Christian god is an empty claim.