Argument from truth

Nihilist Virus

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Well, they are all valid. It's just that none of them are sound.

To establish soundness, you must establish the premises. So as someone noted above (@Nihilist Virus?), there are grounds to question the existence of truth. But even if you grant that, I can't grant that truth implies a god until the existence of gods is demonstrated.

A. If Truth exists, God doesn't.
B. Truth does.
C. God ain't.

Not very convincing, is it?

Right, even if we ignore fundamental limitations of language and logic, we're still left with the issue that logic/mathematics is just assumptions, definitions, and the conclusions that follow. You cannot determine facts about reality from assumptions and definitions. The existence of a deity (or anything at all) must be something discerned from physical evidence.
 
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zippy2006

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Well, they are all valid. It's just that none of them are sound.

To establish soundness, you must establish the premises. So as someone noted above (@Nihilist Virus?), there are grounds to question the existence of truth. But even if you grant that, I can't grant that truth implies a god until the existence of gods is demonstrated.

The argument in the OP is a demonstration for the existence of God. The existence of God is the conclusion, not a premise. If you independently demonstrated the existence of God via some other argument then the premise that truth implies the existence of God would be inconsequential.
 
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Tinker Grey

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The argument in the OP is a demonstration for the existence of God. The existence of God is the conclusion, not a premise. If you independently demonstrated the existence of God via some other argument then the premise that truth implies the existence of God would be inconsequential.
That Truth implies God is, in fact, a premise.

As noted, I can make a valid argument that God doesn't exist by starting with the premise that "Truth -> No gods", as I did above. You're not going to buy that premise just I can't buy "Truth -> God".
 
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HitchSlap

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The argument in the OP is a demonstration for the existence of God. The existence of God is the conclusion, not a premise. If you independently demonstrated the existence of God via some other argument then the premise that truth implies the existence of God would be inconsequential.
Now you guys are starting to get it.
 
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Sapiens

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Yes, we all have to assume something to start off. That's undeniable. The problem, aside from assumptions ultimately being unjustified, is that there isn't always a "common assumption" that we all hold. If you and I disagree on a fundamental assumption, there's no evidence or argument to examine.

I wouldn't say they are unjustified. We have an immediate experience attesting us of these things. We would just have to find common assumptions and build from there.

There's no solution to hard solipsism, and further, simulation theory becomes more plausible every day. You might actually need to either demonstrate that artificial minds are different from ours, or else take that as one of your initial assumptions.

I'm not proposing either of these things, but rather stating that they are possibilities. They're unfalsifiable, but your assumption, just like any assumption, is unjustified.

If there is no reason to doubt these things are what they really appear to be, I don't see a problem assuming they are truthful. Possible doesn't mean probable or reasonable.

Why? How? Would the world be any different whatsoever if moral values did not exist objectively?

The world no, but our perception of them yes. And how we perceive them will affect how we will choose to act. If I learned that moral values are illusory, I would stop believing I need to conform to them. Why not rob, if I want to? Why restrain myself on anything?

In what sense do you conceive of truth? What should I take your words to be?
 
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Sapiens

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Well, your OP runs on the assumption that there shouldn’t be any correspondence between our experience and reality, and I’m not seeing any reasoning for that besides your difficulty imagining how that could happen.
Well, I'm sorry you don't see it then.
 
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Sapiens

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Well, they are all valid. It's just that none of them are sound.

To establish soundness, you must establish the premises. So as someone noted above (@Nihilist Virus?), there are grounds to question the existence of truth. But even if you grant that, I can't grant that truth implies a god until the existence of gods is demonstrated.

A. If Truth exists, God doesn't.
B. Truth does.
C. God ain't.

Not very convincing, is it?

Well, how do you defend premise one? I did present a defense of my premises.

Truth is normative, there is a certain way we are to conceive of reality. Deviating from it puts us in the wrong. Where is this norm coming from? Is this sense of truth we have an illusion or reliable? If reliable, then why? I believe it is obvious to all that it is reliable and that only a supreme mind can explain it. A supreme mind that holds some basic truth while having created others along with the world.
 
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Sapiens

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So as long as I define the requisite attributes, then exists?

It would give us a minimum requirement for the ultimate worldview. We'd eliminate others as we go along, and build a case for what the supreme being must be like.
 
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gaara4158

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Well, I'm sorry you don't see it then.
I’m afraid if you’re not willing to lay it out for me I’m left dismissing your justification for premise 1 as an argument from incredulity...
 
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Tinker Grey

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Well, how do you defend premise one? I did present a defense of my premises.

Truth is normative, there is a certain way we are to conceive of reality. Deviating from it puts us in the wrong. Where is this norm coming from? Is this sense of truth we have an illusion or reliable? If reliable, then why? I believe it is obvious to all that it is reliable and that only a supreme mind can explain it. A supreme mind that holds some basic truth while having created others along with the world.
Why would I defend premise 1? I think it is wrong.
 
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Tone

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God knowing it explains why it is true. His existence and his knowledge of the world explain why there can be a right correspondence with reality and why we ought to seek a right one instead of a mistsken one. Some truths have been eternally known by him and others he determined at creation.

A Creator and the created also explains the subjective/objective concept.
 
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Tone

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I believe it is obvious

That we are creative beings, able to pull things ex nihilo with our thoughts and words and make things work, obviously speaks of a Creator, since we are using the raw material that is already there. It's obvious that we didn't create the earth, but use it to create.

Which has nothing to do with anything.

It has something to do with everything.
 
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