Aren't we all physically ill?

FoundInGrace · Oct 7, 2013

Optimax said:
Of course "God gave someone the intelligence and helped people invent Tylenol to help millions of people in pain."

God is love and loves those millions as well .

Even though they put their trust in "Tylenol" instead of Him.

Mark 11:24
Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. KJV

Can taking Tylenol be trusting God? Or are they mutually exclusive in your way of seeing things? If you take medicine to you is that not trusting God? Thats what it sounded like you were saying. I may have heard what you said wrongly though.

Optimax · Oct 7, 2013

FoundInGrace said:
Can taking Tylenol be trusting God? Or are they mutually exclusive in your way of seeing things? If you take medicine to you is that not trusting God? Thats what it sounded like you were saying. I may have heard what you said wrongly though.

Yes.

A person can take Tylenol in faith.

If that is where their faith is, that is what they should do.

Better to learn how to trust God for the healing though instead of the Tylenol.

probinson · Oct 7, 2013

mourningdove~ said:
My response (above) was to JimB and not to you.

Please don't use my posts, and in twisted ways, to promote your WOF beliefs.

Your response (above) was made on a public forum, and anyone is free to comment on it. If you wanted to speak to JimB, and JimB alone, you are free to send him a PM.

Besides that, I was unaware that not forgetting God's benefits (as per Psalm 103) and believing that He is a rewarder of those that diligently seek after Him (as per Hebrews 11) was an exclusive WoF belief. I thought most Christians believed that.

Please don't try to tell me what I can and cannot respond to in a public forum.

probinson · Oct 7, 2013

Here's a serious question for anyone willing to answer;

Do you think of heaven as a "perk" of your salvation? Given the responses I've gotten to up to this point, perhaps this is a more widespread belief than I realize.

probinson · Oct 7, 2013

FoundInGrace said:
Theres the guy who asked Jesus to heal his daughter but had to wait while Jesus healed the woman with the issue of blood and wait while she shared what had happened and wait while Jesus restored that womans standing in the community etc, then there was more travelling time - that guys daughter literally died waiting for Jesus to heal her.

Jesus could have healed the daughter then and there like He did with the Centurian but He made the guy wait, He made the daughter wait. I find that interesting.

Nice ending though of course

There's more to that story.

On the way to the girl's house, the messenger came and told him that his daughter had died. And here is what Jesus told him (emphasis added);

Mark 5:35-36 (AMP)
While He was still speaking, there came some from the ruler’s house, who said [to Jairus], Your daughter has died. Why bother and distress the Teacher any further? Overhearing but ignoring what they said, Jesus said to the ruler of the synagogue, Do not be seized with alarm and struck with fear; only keep on believing.

Then when they got to his house, he had to put people out who refused to believe;

Mark 5:38-40 (AMP)
When they arrived at the house of the ruler of the synagogue, He looked [carefully and with understanding] at [the] tumult and the people weeping and wailing loudly. And when He had gone in, He said to them, Why do you make an uproar and weep? The little girl is not dead but is sleeping. And they laughed and jeered at Him. But He put them all out, and, taking the child’s father and mother and those who were with Him, He went in where the little girl was lying.

What I find most interesting about this passage is that these folks are "weeping and wailing loudly" when Jesus arrives. But when Jesus tells them that the girl is sleeping, they go from weeping and wailing to laughing and jeering. Sounds like they were really broken up...

They didn't believe Him, and so Jesus put them out.

This is an excellent example of not wavering in your beliefs, regardless of what the circumstances (and popular opinion) may tell you.

louise sheinholtz · Oct 7, 2013

FoundInGrace said:
Can taking Tylenol be trusting God? Or are they mutually exclusive in your way of seeing things? If you take medicine to you is that not trusting God? Thats what it sounded like you were saying. I may have heard what you said wrongly though.

I just told the truth, That is interceding. Where did I say not to take medicine? But, to keep taking it and not seek the underlying source, it only gets worse. Don't you agree?

whatfor · Oct 7, 2013

probinson said:
Here's a serious question for anyone willing to answer;

Do you think of heaven as a "perk" of your salvation? Given the responses I've gotten to up to this point, perhaps this is a more widespread belief than I realize.

My understanding is we are created for God, not for ourselves.
When we get to heaven it is not for our pleasure but to worship Him 24hrs a day for eternity.
I struggle with the concept of everything we can do when we get there, eg. travelling around the universe , having things, doing what we want.
I maybe wrong but I do not see us being there for us.

FoundInGrace · Oct 7, 2013

mourningdove~ said:
Please cease personal contact with me.

reps, I've found that's the best way.

FoundInGrace · Oct 7, 2013

louise sheinholtz said:
I just told the truth, That is interceding. Where did I say not to take medicine? But, to keep taking it and not seek the underlying source, it only gets worse. Don't you agree?

was asking to Optimax, that's why I quoted Optimax's post but thanks for your response.
God bless

FoundInGrace · Oct 7, 2013

Optimax said:
Yes.

A person can take Tylenol in faith.

If that is where their faith is, that is what they should do.

Better to learn how to trust God for the healing though instead of the Tylenol.

thanks for your response, it does clarify where your thoughts are regarding some of my questions.
God bless

Tobias · Oct 8, 2013

There are many natural things that cause our bodies to be healthy. Eating the right foods, exercise, Getting the right amount of sleep, and etc. Are these a lack of faith if we do them?

A farmer doesn't grow crops on faith alone. He has to prepare the land and plant the seed.

Taking care of our bodies is a job in and of itself. We have to not only eat foods that nourish us, but also avoid plenty of things that can harm us. Like not drinking poison, not jumping off a roof that's high enough to break a leg, and a thousand other things that our parents hopefully taught us.

At what point does taking care of my body turn into a lack of faith? Like, by not drinking poison for dinner, have I shown God that I don't trust Him? Does eating healthy food prove that I have no faith in God's promise for perfect health? Or does that only happen the moment I take a Tylenol?

I honestly don't see where we are supposed to draw the line. Why couldn't a person do everything medically possible to take care of their body, while also being in complete faith that God is their Healer? I think the only reason why not would be because we have been taught "do not eat" and "do not touch" when it comes to medicines and doctors, and our consciences are too weak to handle both God and Medicine at the same time!

vitaminC · Oct 8, 2013

probinson said:
Here's a serious question for anyone willing to answer;

Do you think of heaven as a "perk" of your salvation? Given the responses I've gotten to up to this point, perhaps this is a more widespread belief than I realize.

I think that you supported your point rather well from scripture. prior to you pointing out the verses about forgetting not his benefits and that he is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him , I may have fallen into the trap of speculating using a human reasoning that is outside of the scripture. It does sound noble to never need anything or anyone and to do the right thing all the time for no reason other than because it is in my nature to do the right thing for it's own sake.

I can honestly say though that having planted many gardens both literally and figuratively that if I plant in a barren and frustrating field , I lose heart very quickly and look for a better way or place to plant that will yield fruit.

I think that God has placed within us a desire for fruitfulness and it is normal to want to see a good result for our efforts. So much so that this discrimination between what rewards us and what punishes us is hardwired into us at birth as a survival mechanism and a life skill which we develop.

vitaminC · Oct 8, 2013

louise sheinholtz said:
I just told the truth, That is interceding. Where did I say not to take medicine? But, to keep taking it and not seek the underlying source, it only gets worse. Don't you agree?

I agree. I think that sooner or later , as a Christian believer , we need to come to terms with trusting God as our source. This applies for our health , our finances , our relationships , etc. We can place the real issue on the shelf , but sooner or later God will arrange circumstances so that we need to face the supernatural element of things.

vitaminC · Oct 8, 2013

Frogster said:
why is the sick person always blamed for not having faith, but not the preacher, healer, etc, when the ill person is not healed?

Peter said we have the same faith as he does, so go ahead preacher, let your shadow heal others, and james said let the elders do it, yet, the elders never get blamed, they are out of the equation for some reason when one is not healed, it is always the ill person's fault..

Peter healed the lame guy in Acts 3, that was looking for money, probably did not know the Lord, had no NT text to confess, yet peter healed him, as he looked for money, so why can't preachers do that, where is THEIR FAITH?

GEE... we can always ask where the faith of the unhealed person is, that's allowed, but nothing the 'healer", why is that?

Where is his faith?

I think that there is plenty of blame to go around. I agree that using that blame to manipulate others for personal gain is wrong. But avoiding a place of humility is equally wrong. Which of us is so perfect that we feel that we should be exempted from any possibility of blame or lack of faith ?

I think that we can't have it both ways. We either stand by grace which means that we admit that we have come up short or we argue that we have measured up. One thing is certain. We cannot place any blame upon God. If there is any blame to be placed , it is upon the people involved and not upon God who is perfect.

One other point. While everyone is busy being distracted by arguing about how they are not wrong , the thing that gets lost in the shuffle is the need for us to humbly seek God for the answer. That is not a shell game that I want to participate in.

I am comfortable admitting that my faith is lacking many times and looking at the possibility that I have come up short in a given situation. Both when I am the one doing the praying and when I am the one receiving prayer.

SavedByGrace3 · Oct 8, 2013

Most of the time sickness, accidents, etc are just nature taking its course. These are just random events happening in a universe that is free and running according to the rules and principles innate to all creation. We see God in the interventions. Salvation is an intervention against the norm of damnation. Healing is an intervention against sickness which we are all prone to. This is a fallen/falling world where anything can happen within the rules of creation. An axe head can slip off a handle and kill someone. This is just an accident. God did not plan it nor did He step in to prevent it. It was just an accident and nobody is at fault. We are all subject to time and chance and unless we make Him our tower of defense, then there is nothing stopping that arrow from striking us.

Satan is the god of this world, he has power (at the moment) to get anyone that he can get to. He is a roaring lion and the only thing restricting him from getting you is his own innate limitations and your sobriety and vigilance. If you do not resist him he will attempt to devour you. If you do not resist him he will not flee from you.

So Jim is correct at least in one way, we are all subject to becoming ill. But through prayer and faith we can ask God to intervene on our behalf because of what Jesus did for us. His name gives us standing in heaven to resist the devil and to dwell in the safety of Gods hand.

So we are liable to sickness, poverty, oppression, even death. But Jesus gave us the means to escape these inevitabilities. Jesus!

Peace

DIDly-do-da. DIDly-day,
my or my what a Spirit filled day!

SavedByGrace3 · Oct 8, 2013

Most people do not think in terms of blame. This is just something you are introducing into the conversation. Very rarely have I heard anyone say "it is your fault healing did not come".
We cannot really blame anyone for sickness any more than we can blame someone for rain getting us wet. It happens as a course of nature. If you try to open an umbrella and it does not open, you still cannot blame the umbrella owner for the rain. It is the rain that is the offender, not the broken umbrella. So too, it is the sickness that is the offender, not the failed attempt at effecting healing.
We need to try to edify each other... not introduce blame and doubt.
peace...

Frogster said:
why is the sick person always blamed for not having faith, but not the preacher, healer, etc, when the ill person is not healed?

Peter said we have the same faith as he does, so go ahead preacher, let your shadow heal others, and james said let the elders do it, yet, the elders never get blamed, they are out of the equation for some reason when one is not healed, it is always the ill person's fault..

Peter healed the lame guy in Acts 3, that was looking for money, probably did not know the Lord, had no NT text to confess, yet peter healed him, as he looked for money, so why can't preachers do that, where is THEIR FAITH?

GEE... we can always ask where the faith of the unhealed person is, that's allowed, but nothing the 'healer", why is that?

Where is his faith?

Always in His Presence · Oct 8, 2013

FoundInGrace said:
Theres the guy who asked Jesus to heal his daughter but had to wait while Jesus healed the woman with the issue of blood and wait while she shared what had happened and wait while Jesus restored that womans standing in the community etc, then there was more travelling time - that guys daughter literally died waiting for Jesus to heal her.

Jesus could have healed the daughter then and there like He did with the Centurian but He made the guy wait, He made the daughter wait. I find that interesting.

Nice ending though of course the daughter was healed but not straightaway. Sometimes its good for us to wait. God's timing is always perfect. Praise God

Ant yet Jesus never said no or wait.

probinson · Oct 8, 2013

whatfor said:
My understanding is we are created for God, not for ourselves.

I would agree with this.

I would also say that God created us to Love us. Yes, we are created to worship God, but God so Loved us that He gave His only begotten Son for us.

whatfor said:
When we get to heaven it is not for our pleasure but to worship Him 24hrs a day for eternity.
I struggle with the concept of everything we can do when we get there, eg. travelling around the universe , having things, doing what we want.
I maybe wrong but I do not see us being there for us.

I can only conclude, from the weighty price God paid for our salvation, that He really desires us to be with Him. I don't think any of us can really fathom exactly what heaven will be like, but I do think it will be a pleasure for us to worship Him for eternity.

Yitzchak · Oct 8, 2013

Simply Put said:
Ant yet Jesus never said no or wait.

This is true. Every example in scripture speaks positively about those who believe God for healing. No where is doubt encouraged.

probinson · Oct 8, 2013

vitaminC said:
I think that you supported your point rather well from scripture. prior to you pointing out the verses about forgetting not his benefits and that he is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him , I may have fallen into the trap of speculating using a human reasoning that is outside of the scripture. It does sound noble to never need anything or anyone and to do the right thing all the time for no reason other than because it is in my nature to do the right thing for it's own sake.

And that's the inherent danger in the belief. It sounds noble, but it's nothing but false humility, or more accurately, pride.

The only reason I can Love people is because God first Loved me. He SO Loved me that He gave His only begotten Son for me. My ability to forgive comes from God's example of forgiveness. My desire to bless people results from God blessing me. IOW, there is nothing good in me that is not a direct result of my heavenly Father. It astounds me that some people have been deceived into believing that they have no need of the things God does for them. I will freely admit that I NEED all that my Father does for me to be who I am. Without Him, I truly would be nothing.

vitaminC said:
I can honestly say though that having planted many gardens both literally and figuratively that if I plant in a barren and frustrating field , I lose heart very quickly and look for a better way or place to plant that will yield fruit.

I think that God has placed within us a desire for fruitfulness and it is normal to want to see a good result for our efforts. So much so that this discrimination between what rewards us and what punishes us is hardwired into us at birth as a survival mechanism and a life skill which we develop.

Agreed. I would also say that a person's upbringing plays a significant role in what people will believe in how God disciplines them. If one's parents are quick to physically discipline the child at all times, then it's likely that when they hear that God is their "father", they'll believe that God is physically disciplining them all the time.

I take my role as a father to my 2 children very seriously. I try very hard to demonstrate to them the same grace and mercy in my discipline to them that my heavenly Father shows to me. I want them to know that even when they do wrong, there is grace for them. I want them to know that if they choose to disobey, there are consequences that they've created for themselves. I want them to know that their mother and I always want what is best for them, and would never do anything to hurt them.

I really like the song "Lead Me" by Sanctus Real, because I know that in my own strength, I cannot succeed in any of the above tasks. But as God leads me to be the father and husband He has called me to be, I can be an example of the Love of the Father, to my wife, to my children, and to all of those around me.

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