Are you saved by faith or your works?

[reddogs]

It is absolutely true that salvation is by faith alone. "By faith alone" simply means that we cannot save ourselves. Only God can save us. However, it is also true that you can know when a person has received salvation by faith, because he will always, and there is no exception to this, desire to be obedient.

Faith and true obedience always go together. You can't have one without the other, because obedience in the final analysis is what salvation is all about. A person who is not converted cannot and will not obey God, because the carnal heart is not subject to the law of God. This is the reason a person who has not accepted Christ cannot follow his commandments as people who have received salvation by faith in Jesus want to do.

The first step in salvation is that the sinner is called to come to Christ, and then, that having come to Christ we repent our sins, and then we put them away by doing what he wants. So following and obedience to his law and the example Jesus Christ gave us is the objective test as to whether a person has changed and really received salvation. Jesus said, putting it in plain English, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments." Those that dont want to do God's will and follow the Gospel of Jesus Christ look for ways to talk the talk but not do the walk. They search for any way to get out of doing anything that interferes with their life and sometimes they discard the map to salvation on the road to a diferent destination......

 

[reddogs]

The teachings of Jesus are in reality theologically heavy with solid direction. If you have ever thought that the Ten Commandments are difficult to keep, try keeping the principles enunciated in the Sermon on the Mount! A person might be able to fake the keeping of the Ten Commandments, but no one has or every will be able to fake keeping the principles of the Sermon on the Mount.
There are some who might counter that we don't have to keep the Ten Commandments to be saved anyway. Jesus did it all. If that is true, the same reasoning would apply, then, that we don't have to do what Jesus taught us to do either. That would reduce the Sermon on the Mount to a waste of time or a meaningless discussion at worst.

 

[OntheDL]

We are saved by faith, not by works.

The (relatively) new 'faith alone' twist is that we don't have to do anything. It paves ways for our denomination to apostasize. If we don't have to do anything, then why do anything at all. Why keep the 10 commandments, why keep the sabbath? It leads to this key issue.

We are saved by faith. But it does not relinguish our duties to God and to man.

Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

 

[Adventtruth]

It is absolutely true that salvation is by faith alone. "By faith alone" simply means that we cannot save ourselves. Only God can save us.

I agree.

However, it is also true that you can know when a person has received salvation by faith, because he will always, and there is no exception to this, desire to be obedient.

Not always. What about that person who is angry at his wife and goes off and kicks the dog around the house, knowing that it not what God desires for Him...do yousay that man was lost at that time?

Faith and true obedience always go together. You can't have one without the other, because obedience in the final analysis is what salvation is all about.

Come on now Reddogs!!! You are saying that obedience is more important than Christ and His work for us? I thik not!

A person who is not converted cannot and will not obey God, because the carnal heart is not subject to the law of God. This is the reason a person who has not accepted Christ cannot follow his commandments as people who have received salvation by faith in Jesus want to do.

A person who converted can not follow those commands either...show me one person other than Christ who has.

_AT

 

[Jon0388g]

"Adventtruth" do you believe in 'once saved - always saved'??

Jon

 

[Adventtruth]

"Adventtruth" do you believe in 'once saved - always saved'??

Jon

Of course not! The bible makes it clear that a person can lose their salvation.

Galatians 5:4 (KJV) Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

-AT

 

[reddogs]

Then why do you fight Gods law so vehemently?

Red

 

[SisterDee]

If I may, I would like to advocate for AT on one point. I don't have his permission to do so, but I must say that in all of the posts I have read of AT's, he has never fought GOD's law. He is correct in what he as said about the law of GOD. All of what he has said can be summed up in the verse, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." (Matt. 5:17) I think that Reddogs has a passion for the law of GOD that is admirable. For GOD's law is a reflection of GOD himself. But just keep in mind Reddogs that GOD's SON is a reflection as well.

 

[Adventtruth]

Then why do you fight Gods law so vehemently?

Red

I don't fight it...I just understand what the bible teaches about it. Maybe you should get understanding about Justification by faith alone.

AT

 

[Adventtruth]

If I may, I would like to advocate for AT on one point. I don't have his permission to do so, but I must say that in all of the posts I have read of AT's, he has never fought GOD's law. He is correct in what he as said about the law of GOD. All of what he has said can be summed up in the verse, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." (Matt. 5:17) I think that Reddogs has a passion for the law of GOD that is admirable. For GOD's law is a reflection of GOD himself. But just keep in mind Reddogs that GOD's SON is a reflection as well.

Thanks for your kind words...and understanding!

AT

 

[Telaquapacky]

I'll stir up the bees by sharing a quote by Miroslav Kis that I particularly agree with. He said, "You are saved by works. You are saved by the works that Jesus does in and through you."

 

[Jon0388g]

You are not saved by your works.

But you are condemned by them.

Jon

 

[Adventtruth]

I'll stir up the bees by sharing a quote by that I particularly agree with. He said, "You are saved by works. You are saved by the works that Jesus does in and through you."

Well you believe a false gospel, cause you are never saved by works. You really should believe the bible and not this Miroslav Kis

AT

 

[reddogs]

Well, if salvation is a gift, then your own works cannot save you. The New Testament teaches that Jesus Christ died for our sins so that we may inherit eternal life through Him.

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures. 1 Corinthians 15:3

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:15

What scriptures was Paul referring to when he said that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures? Of course he was referring to the Old Testament, which predicted that Jesus would die for the sins of mankind. Isaiah spells out the affliction and suffering that the Messiah would have to go through to atone for our sins:

He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. Isaiah 53:3-6

What is sin, and why did it cost the life of the Son of God? The Bible has only one definition of sin, and we find this in 1 John 3:

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Sin is the transgression of the law of God. Moreover, sin carries a penalty, and that penalty is death, but in Christ the penalty is paid and we can have eternal life.

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

Sin separates us from God and being separated from God means being separated from the source of life because God is the author and maintainer of life.

But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. Isaiah 59:2

Since all mankind has transgressed the law of God, all mankind is in need of salvation.
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23

If salvation is a gift, then it follows that salvation is by grace and that my own works cannot save me.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. Ephesians 2:8

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. Romans 11:6

Wonderful news - we are saved by the grace of God through faith in the Son of God. Does this free us from obedience to God’s law or belittle God's law?

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Romans 3:31

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? Romans 6:14-16

Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Romans 7:12

Simply then, sin (the transgression of God’s law) leads to death (and here we are not talking about physical death but eternal death), and grace leads to life (eternal life). But grace does not remove the obligation to keep God’s law, but rather establishes the law. The law cannot save me, but it can warn me by telling me what sin is.

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. Romans 3:20

It is by grace that we are saved, delivered from sin, justified, restored and sanctified. Grace sets right the relationship with God, but the law tells us what sin is so that we may avoid it by the grace of God. A true conversion will fill the heart with gratitude and the restored person will once again want to live in harmony with the law of God. Jesus said:

If ye love me, keep my commandments. John 14:15
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love. John 15:10
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 1 John 5:3

 

[reddogs]

The difference between relying on one’s own merits for salvation and relying on the merits of the Messiah who was to come was demonstrated in the account of Cain and Abel. Both of them erected a sacrificial altar. Cain brought an offering only of farm produce, the fruit of his labour, which did not receive the approval of God, because by bringing only this sacrifice Cain showed that he would rely only on his own merits, and not on the prescribed lamb for salvation. However, “without shedding of blood is no remission,” and salvation lies outside oneself in Christ. Abel’s offering, on the other hand, included the blood offering. (Genesis 4:4)

And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering. Genesis 4:4

The sacrifice of Abel was accepted, because his offerings pointed to the coming Redeemer. Abel thus understood that salvation was only to be obtained through faith in the blood of the Lamb and his testimony stands to this day.

By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. Hebrews 11:4

Abraham offered the sacrificial lamb, and so did all the patriarchs. Throughout all history, the only means of salvation was through the blood of the lamb and never through works.

 

[Adventtruth]

Well, if salvation is a gift, then your own works cannot save you. The New Testament teaches that Jesus Christ died for our sins so that we may inherit eternal life through Him.

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures. 1 Corinthians 15:3

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:15

What scriptures was Paul referring to when he said that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures? Of course he was referring to the Old Testament, which predicted that Jesus would die for the sins of mankind. Isaiah spells out the affliction and suffering that the Messiah would have to go through to atone for our sins:

He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. Isaiah 53:3-6

What is sin, and why did it cost the life of the Son of God? The Bible has only one definition of sin, and we find this in 1 John 3:

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Sin is the transgression of the law of God. Moreover, sin carries a penalty, and that penalty is death, but in Christ the penalty is paid and we can have eternal life.

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

Sin separates us from God and being separated from God means being separated from the source of life because God is the author and maintainer of life.

But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. Isaiah 59:2

Since all mankind has transgressed the law of God, all mankind is in need of salvation.
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23

If salvation is a gift, then it follows that salvation is by grace and that my own works cannot save me.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. Ephesians 2:8

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. Romans 11:6

Wonderful news - we are saved by the grace of God through faith in the Son of God. Does this free us from obedience to God’s law or belittle God's law?

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Romans 3:31

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? Romans 6:14-16

Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Romans 7:12

Simply then, sin (the transgression of God’s law) leads to death (and here we are not talking about physical death but eternal death), and grace leads to life (eternal life). But grace does not remove the obligation to keep God’s law, but rather establishes the law. The law cannot save me, but it can warn me by telling me what sin is.

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. Romans 3:20

It is by grace that we are saved, delivered from sin, justified, restored and sanctified. Grace sets right the relationship with God, but the law tells us what sin is so that we may avoid it by the grace of God. A true conversion will fill the heart with gratitude and the restored person will once again want to live in harmony with the law of God. Jesus said:

If ye love me, keep my commandments. John 14:15
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love. John 15:10
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 1 John 5:3

Nice posting, but I have to disagree with this part

... The Bible has only one definition of sin..."

The bible gives more than one definition of sin.


-AT

 

[reddogs]

Ok, split another hair........

 

[Adventtruth]

Ok, split another hair........

It may be spliting hairs to you, but to some it may not be total truth.

AT

 

[Telaquapacky]

Well you believe a false gospel, cause you are never saved by works. You really should believe the bible and not this Miroslav Kis

AT

I knew the wording of that would mislead some people, and maybe you misunderstood. Let me share the Bible background for the statement by Miroslav Kis, "We are saved by works. We are saved by the works God does in and through us."

Ephesians 2:10
For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Philippians 4:13
I can do everything through him who gives me strength.

Philippians 2:13
for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

John 3:21
But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Jesus says if you don’t do the will of God, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven, e.g. be saved. Paul states it is God's will that we do good works.

The earlier verses make it clear that it is God working in us who does good works according to God’s will- and not ourselves doing them, indeed what God made us for, because that was His will.

If you can’t be saved if you don’t do God’s will, and if you need Christ living in you to do the good works that are God’s will for us…

...then you can’t be saved except by the good works that Christ does in you. Miroslav Kis only expressed in fewer words what the Bible clearly says. I only agreed with Miroslav because I agree with the Bible.

AT, do you understand what I mean now, or do you still have some misgivings about it?

 

[Telaquapacky]

You are not saved by your works.

But you are condemned by them.

Jon

Ha ha! Jon. Did I say you were saved by your works? I said you were saved by the works that Jesus does in you.

Armed with this attitude, whenever some good thing comes from me, (when I recover from my surprise) I always say, "Thank you, Jesus for doing that," because I know that no good thing lives in me, and if I did something good that must have been Jesus doing it in me.

The only other alternatives are:
1. a "do nothing" Christianity
2. a "do it yourself" Christianity.

Which do you prefer, or can you come up with another alternative I haven't thought of?