Are you saved because you believe? Or do you believe because you are saved?

[BNR32FAN]

Your verses do not disprove predestination, they only give some implication regarding God`s criteria for the elect.

This verse disproves predestination.

“But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:34‬ ‭NASB

Were these men saved?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Man can only be held accountable if he is capable of meeting God’s expectations. Man cannot be rightly judged and punished for failing to meet impossible expectations.

Huge assumption

 

[QvQ]

"JBNR32FAN said:"Man can only be held accountable if he is capable of meeting God’s expectations. Man cannot be rightly judged and punished for failing to meet impossible expectations.

I wouldn't carve that in stone and send it to God.

 

[RickReads]

This verse disproves predestination.

“But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:34‬ ‭NASB

Were these men saved?

They don`t appear to have been but we don`t know the rest of their life history. No connection to what the Bible says about the elect.

 

[Dave L]

no one ever said be saved so that you may repent and believe.

That's because you must believe (be saved) before you can believe and repent.
“Can an Ethiopian change the color of his skin? Can a leopard take away its spots? Neither can you start doing good (believing), for you have always done evil.” Jeremiah 13:23 (NLT).

“And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.” Deuteronomy 30:6 (KJV 1900)

 

[Dave L]

As usual you have it backwards.

“Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38‬ ‭NASB

These were believers. Who would repent other than someone who believed?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I wouldn't carve that in stone and send it to God.

I wouldn’t need to because God is just.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Huge assumption

It’s not an assumption it’s a well known fact that God is just and incapable of injustice.

 

[BNR32FAN]

They don`t appear to have been but we don`t know the rest of their life history. No connection to what the Bible says about the elect.

Jesus specifically stated that He would not be the one to accuse them before The Father but it is Moses who will accuse them. So if Moses will accuse them they cannot be saved otherwise they would have nothing to be accused of by Christ’s atonement. So if predestination were true then what Jesus said “these things I have spoken to you so that you may be saved” this would be a lie if they were not predestined to be saved. Since we know that Jesus is incapable of lying then we can also know that salvation must have been made available to these men therefore they were condemned by their own unwillingness to believe His words.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That's because you must believe (be saved) before you can believe and repent.

You must believe before you can believe?

 

[Dave L]

You must believe before you can believe?

Actually, you must be born again (saved) before you can discern spiritual truth and believe.

 

[RickReads]

Jesus specifically stated that He would not be the one to accuse them before The Father but it is Moses who will accuse them. So if Moses will accuse them they cannot be saved otherwise they would have nothing to be accused of by Christ’s atonement. So if predestination were true then what Jesus said “these things I have spoken to you so that you may be saved” this would be a lie if they were not predestined to be saved. Since we know that Jesus is incapable of lying then we can also know that salvation must have been made available to these men therefore they were condemned by their own unwillingness to believe His words.

Predestination is true because the Bible says it is. Your line of reasoning prevents you from understanding the Biblical doctrine of election. Predestination is all about God`s omniscience.

The gift of salvation is available to anyone who hears about Jesus. So His offer to them was legitimate, yet he already knew they would reject. Your passage does the opposite of what you claim, it proves predestination. Jesus knew their eternal destiny years in advance of their deaths.

I expect they had numerous chances to get saved after this encounter with Jesus, but we know in advance that they will reject them all.

Thx, that was actually very relevant. Great passage.

 

[BNR32FAN]

These were believers. Who would repent other than someone who believed?

They were not believers until after they heard Peter preach. Anyway that’s irrelevant the point was that repentance comes before being born again. You said that a person must be born again before they can repent but no one is born of the Spirit before they receive the Holy Spirit.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Actually, you must be born again (saved) before you can discern spiritual truth and believe.

Born of what? The Spirit? NOBODY EVER RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT BEFORE THEY BELIEVED. NEVER ONCE HAPPENED IN THE ENTIRE NEW TESTAMENT. Cornelius believed BEFORE he received the Holy Spirit. The 12 DISCIPLES Paul baptized in Ephesus believed BEFORE they received the Holy Spirit. These are undeniable.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Predestination is true because the Bible says it is. Your line of reasoning prevents you from understanding the Biblical doctrine of election. Predestination is all about God`s omniscience.

The gift of salvation is available to anyone who hears about Jesus. So His offer to them was legitimate, yet he already knew they would reject. Your passage does the opposite of what you claim, it proves predestination. Jesus knew their eternal destiny years in advance of their deaths.

I expect they had numerous chances to get saved after this encounter with Jesus, but we know in advance that they will reject them all.

Thx, that was actually very relevant. Great passage.

Then you should be able to explain how this passage of scripture doesn’t refute predestination. Either Jesus lied and these men won’t be accused by Moses before The Father or Jesus lied and didn’t tell them these things so that they may be saved. Those are the only two options if predestination is true. Either they were predestined to hell or predestined to heaven so which is it? You can’t choose either one without calling Jesus a liar. The only way what Jesus said can be true is if these men were capable of believing and refused of their own free will.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Predestination is true because the Bible says it is. Your line of reasoning prevents you from understanding the Biblical doctrine of election. Predestination is all about God`s omniscience.

The gift of salvation is available to anyone who hears about Jesus. So His offer to them was legitimate, yet he already knew they would reject. Your passage does the opposite of what you claim, it proves predestination. Jesus knew their eternal destiny years in advance of their deaths.

I expect they had numerous chances to get saved after this encounter with Jesus, but we know in advance that they will reject them all.

Thx, that was actually very relevant. Great passage.

ok here’s another example.

“But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:20-21‬ ‭NASB

Why did Jesus give Jezebel time to repent if she is not predestined for salvation?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Predestination is true because the Bible says it is. Your line of reasoning prevents you from understanding the Biblical doctrine of election. Predestination is all about God`s omniscience.

The gift of salvation is available to anyone who hears about Jesus. So His offer to them was legitimate, yet he already knew they would reject. Your passage does the opposite of what you claim, it proves predestination. Jesus knew their eternal destiny years in advance of their deaths.

I expect they had numerous chances to get saved after this encounter with Jesus, but we know in advance that they will reject them all.

Thx, that was actually very relevant. Great passage.

How is John 15:6 possible? Or Galatians 5:4?

 

[RickReads]

ok here’s another example.

“But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:20-21‬ ‭NASB

Why did Jesus give Jezebel time to repent if she is not predestined for salvation?

Jesus gives everybody who knows about Him time to repent, by all means, keep trying tho.

 

[RickReads]

How is John 15:6 possible? Or Galatians 5:4?

Why would an omniscient God make them impossible? These are pretty much the same situation as other examples. God knows outcomes from the beginning.
O-M-N-I-S-C-I-E-N-C-E.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The gift of salvation is available to anyone who hears about Jesus. So His offer to them was legitimate, yet he already knew they would reject. Your passage does the opposite of what you claim, it proves predestination. Jesus knew their eternal destiny years in advance of their deaths.

If this were true then He couldn’t have told them this so that they may be saved.