Are you part of Mainstream Messianic Judaism?

[Lulav]

I'm making this poll anonymous and with only one vote to see where those who consider themselves Messianic stand.

Please feel free to vote without recrimination.


We read a lot about 'mainstream Messianic Judaism'. This is often including the beliefs as stated by the two major organizations, which are not a denominational head.

There are many Messianic groups, do you think that this forum should be for only those who belong to one of these two main groups?

MJ is not a denomination, as can be seen by the heading on these forums we are under. Should we have to agree to a set of rules by one of these organizations? And what if we don't? Should we have a separate forum for those that don't belong to the MJAA or the UMJC?

 

[Lulav]

Here is a small list of some of the better known MJ organizations

• The Messianic Jewish Alliance of America (MJAA)
• Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations (UMJC)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism#cite_note-103
• Chosen People Ministries (CPM)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism#cite_note-104
• Coalition of Torah Observant Messianic Congregations (CTOMC)
• Union of Nazarene Yisraelite Congregations (UONYC)
• Union of Conservative Messianic Synagogues (UCMJS)
• The International Alliance of Messianic Congregations and Synagogues (IAMCS).
• HaYesod ("the foundation") is a discipleship course that respectfully explores the Jewish foundation of Christianity. There are currently 259 HaYesod study groups of 5 or more members.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism#cite_note-108
• The Jerusalem Council, an organization seeking to become a ruling council for Messianic believers worldwide.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism#cite_note-JC1-109 It is in the process of publishing a set of Messianic halakha that the "majority of orthodox Messianic Jews accept."
• The Messianic Jewish Rabbinical Council, many of whose members are affiliated with the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations, has published its standards of Messianic Torah observance.

 

[zaksmummy]

I voted "no", but I could also have voted "I dont want it to be like church in a Kippur".

But also I dont really know what mainstream MJ looks like - there arent any MJ synagogues any where near us - so we kind of had to make it up as we went along. That said some other MJs we know do seem to like it to be church with a kippur, which puts me right off - I go to church on a Sunday for that - I dont want the same the rest of the week and I have fallen in love with liturgy.

 

[Lulav]

Hi ZM

Thanks for your post!

 

[visionary]

I say that Messianic Judaism should be a brand of Judaism that Yeshua taught, and what we should follow to be a part of those who love Yeshua and keep His commandments.

 

[MessianicMommy]

Voted no, but also could have voted "Don't want it to be church in a kippah"....

The congregation I was last affiliated with was part of a group separate from the 2 main denominations, and very loosely affiliated with the SBC's branch of Messianic groups - to maintain friendship and contact more than a set order of doctrine or style of worship.

I've been with groups affiliated with Chosen People, J4J etc - and that is so, totally not like our worship system. We're not really affiliated now with the local Messianic group here Beit Sar Shalom, but we keep in contact with them. There aren't any German or English speaking congregations within may miles/driving hours of us. I've put out feelers and even checked for home groups - nada. The Russian speaking congregations don't seem to offer German - we checked - and weren't interested in our checking them out (gee, I feel welcome all over! )

As far as where we fit theologically, yes, we agree with most everything the main groups believe - but it is in practice where we vary.

 

[ananda]

Thanks for the poll I too voted "no" but I could have easily voted for any of the last three options as well!

I don't think any of us here are looking for a superficial type of fellowship, which is, as I see it, common among many "church-goers" today. I see the type of people attracted to forums like this one are those searching for deeper truth, those desiring to find and share and debate ideas in search of His Truth, and (hopefully) to mould our beliefs accordingly.

I suppose what I'm saying is that I think most of us here are not "mainstream" in one way or another

 

[EyesOfKohl]

Mainstream? Not at all, but rather at the opposite end.

I stopped listening to what others teach and went in search of truth and my own understanding. I don't need to fit in with another groups particular beliefs of saying how things should be. I believe what the scriptures say, and there are many who twist them according to their own desire and then teach others. I wish we could go back to the original teachings of our Machiah Yeshua.

 

[Lulav]

Thanks for the poll I too voted "no" but I could have easily voted for any of the last three options as well!

I don't think any of us here are looking for a superficial type of fellowship, which is, as I see it, common among many "church-goers" today. I see the type of people attracted to forums like this one are those searching for deeper truth, those desiring to find and share and debate ideas in search of His Truth, and (hopefully) to mould our beliefs accordingly.

I suppose what I'm saying is that I think most of us here are not "mainstream" in one way or another

Yes, I agree, I think forums like this are not frequented by those in the pews in Messianic gatherings. Some are, but the majority aren't. They are usually, as you said, those searching for deeper truth. Being a member of a Messianic Congregation for a number of years those that were more into the real truth were the ones I'd see come and after awhile realizing they weren't going to find it there and leave. Those who stayed or were attracted to it were more, sad to say, Christians looking for something that looked to them like Jesus's religion. As this attraction was enlarged so was the Christian base becoming a majority.

Disagreements happened between the Rabbi and Asst. Rabbi and they split. One wanting more of a Christian Gentile type of congregation, the other a more Jewish one.

To me, those who fit into the Mainstream category are those who basically like to go and be part of it for the worshiping, the holidays and onegs. Deeper study is rarely thing pursued. I started a small Torah study group that was attended eagerly by those wanting more. We made a day of it after service that went into late at night. Then the Rabbi got jealous and told us that we weren't allowed to have this Torah study in our own home. Not only that he told those that were still in the congregation that they were not to come here.

They were hungering and thirsting and he would rather that they stay that way than to be quenched. Sad, but true.

I come here to find others of the same and bounce ideas or thoughts off of that come to me while studying the word. I believe we should not be complacent in religion but to always search, and thirst for truth. If it were already found there wouldn't be all the religions and denominations this world has.

 

[Lulav]

Voted no, but also could have voted "Don't want it to be church in a kippah"....

The congregation I was last affiliated with was part of a group separate from the 2 main denominations, and very loosely affiliated with the SBC's branch of Messianic groups - to maintain friendship and contact more than a set order of doctrine or style of worship.

I've been with groups affiliated with Chosen People, J4J etc - and that is so, totally not like our worship system. We're not really affiliated now with the local Messianic group here Beit Sar Shalom, but we keep in contact with them. There aren't any German or English speaking congregations within may miles/driving hours of us. I've put out feelers and even checked for home groups - nada. The Russian speaking congregations don't seem to offer German - we checked - and weren't interested in our checking them out (gee, I feel welcome all over! )

As far as where we fit theologically, yes, we agree with most everything the main groups believe - but it is in practice where we vary.

It's interesting that MJ has had so many splits in such a few years time of coming into being (modern day).

I didn't know that you had a local group, that is cool.

Maybe you could start your own home group?

 

[ContraMundum]

To me, those who fit into the Mainstream category are those who basically like to go and be part of it for the worshiping, the holidays and onegs. Deeper study is rarely thing pursued.

Nice slap in the face.

Man, that is one of the most insulting things I have read here for ages. Way to punch the forum beliefs in the guts!

The only scholars worth listening to, and who have done real studies are from mainstream MJism. The outsiders are rarely worth a pinch of salt in their scholarship. I'll take Jacob Prasch, Arnold Fructenbaum, David Stern, Alfred Edersheim and a whole array of similar names over the fringe element any day.

 

[ContraMundum]

We read a lot about 'mainstream Messianic Judaism'. This is often including the beliefs as stated by the two major organizations, which are not a denominational head.

There are many Messianic groups, do you think that this forum should be for only those who belong to one of these two main groups?

MJ is not a denomination, as can be seen by the heading on these forums we are under. Should we have to agree to a set of rules by one of these organizations? And what if we don't?

OK..I see the agenda. Fine.

Should we have a separate forum for those that don't belong to the MJAA or the UMJC?

Would it not depend on the compatibility of the teachings of this nameless group with the greater rules of CF? Surely, the non-mainstream notion contains with it a certain amount of theological anarchy, with every man representing no one but himself and in fellowship doctrinally with no one in particular. How long before it just becomes the "make your own rules and bully out the others" forum? I can foresee a forum like that being incredibly unsatisfactory for all involved in the long run, with the stronger and more vocal personalities lording it over the others- which is the dynamic in any organization with a vacancy in objective agreement.

What would you envisage as the binding common thought and purpose of such a thing?

 

[visionary]

something wrong with theological anarchy.??. that is how new steps forward happen.

 

[yedida]

I voted not church with a kippah. If I wanted Sunday church, I'd go there.
I could also have chosen I'm not a part of mainstream MJ, and I would like to get back to the times of the Ascension in Jerusalem.

 

[visionary]

I agree

 

[ananda]

The only scholars worth listening to, and who have done real studies are from mainstream ... The outsiders are rarely worth a pinch of salt ... the non-mainstream notion contains with it a certain amount of theological anarchy, with every man representing no one but himself and in fellowship doctrinally with no one in particular.

Doesn't that describe Yeshua as He began His "outsider" ministry? As He worked against the mainstream establishment dominated by the Pharisees and Sadducees?

How long before it just becomes the "make your own rules and bully out the others" forum? I can foresee a forum ... with the stronger and more vocal personalities lording it over the others

No offense intended, but isn't that what you are attempting to do?

What would you envisage as the binding common thought and purpose of such a thing?

In my opinion, the basic concepts which should bind Messianics is our belief, trust, and faith in Yeshua Messiah, and to obey His Torah. When I say "Torah," I mean to follow His commandments, and we can disagree on the meaning and extent of our obedience to it.

 

[ContraMundum]

No, Jesus did not advocate anarchy, and anarchy is therefore not good for theology. I can't believe people imagine that all change is good change.

 

[ContraMundum]

No offense intended, but isn't that what you are attempting to do?

No, absolutely NOT!

The only people who feel threatened by my posts are theological anarchists. I have lots of co-travelers on this forum who agree with the forum position and guidelines. They get driven off, bullied, shouted down, threatened, reported and manipulated. It has to stop. This program of division is obvious to me.

In my opinion, the basic concepts which should bind Messianics is our belief, trust, and faith in Yeshua Messiah, and to obey His Torah. When I say "Torah," I mean to follow His commandments, and we can disagree on the meaning and extent of our obedience to it.

That's right...one day I hope the mainstream MJ position is respected here.

 

[visionary]

No, absolutely NOT!

The only people who feel threatened by my posts are theological anarchists. I have lots of co-travelers on this forum who agree with the forum position and guidelines. They get driven off, bullied, shouted down, threatened, reported and manipulated. It has to stop. This program of division is obvious to me.



That's right...one day I hope the mainstream MJ position is respected here.

Of which you will continue to reject.

 

[visionary]

OK..I see the agenda. Fine.



Would it not depend on the compatibility of the teachings of this nameless group with the greater rules of CF? Surely, the non-mainstream notion contains with it a certain amount of theological anarchy, with every man representing no one but himself and in fellowship doctrinally with no one in particular. How long before it just becomes the "make your own rules and bully out the others" forum? I can foresee a forum like that being incredibly unsatisfactory for all involved in the long run, with the stronger and more vocal personalities lording it over the others- which is the dynamic in any organization with a vacancy in objective agreement.

What would you envisage as the binding common thought and purpose of such a thing?