Are you hypocrites?

[SolomonVII]

I was in church last Sunday and they showed a video of the appalling genocide in Africa where whole villages are murdered (man, women, children and babies) and their young daughters are taken by the soldiers for sex.
Yes this is horrific, but then I remembered in the bible the exact same thing was done by the Israelites just because (supposedly) God told them to.

So are you hypocrites for thinking (quite rightly) that genocide and the kidnapping of women is evil yet condone it if it's in the bible?

It is a good thing that you were in church last Sunday. This is the type of evil that our humanity has had to deal with since the very beginning of history. The church is obviously laying out the human condition to you very well.

The evil is both within us and around us too. The bible itself is part of the learning process to defeat this evil. And being a sacred history, it is a story that progesses in time.

Obviously, the church you attended would not show such a video if it did not expect it to have some effect on the minds and behavior of those viewing it. But exactly what action it might lead the congregation to is as problematic as it ever was. Dealing with evil is never easy, and refusing to dealing with it is not much of a solution either.

Furthermore, since most Christians and Jews understand the progressive nature of the revelation, we can be certain that virtually no Christian leader today would expect that the congregation be using the Old Testament to either condone such evil, or to advocate turn-about as fair play.
So this is not hypocricy. It is simply accepting that we have a deeper understanding of the ways of God that the semi-barbaric tribes of 3000 years ago could never ever even have hoped to comprehend. The ultimate message that God was speaking for went beyond their entire world view. Fidelity to God's word leads us on historic learning curve after all, and what God teaches at the university level of today vastly surplasses what God's children were learning during their pre-school phase.

Really, this is not hypocricy at all.

Simply put, 2500 years of Judeo-Christian teacher has transformed the mind of the inheritors of the Hebrew tradition. Knowing and loving our own freedom that came with the escape from the bondage of Egypt, and understanding that mankind is a family, we yearn for freedom for all.

And that is why we can feel empathy for what the video is showing us.

And yet, the divinely sanctioned fury of God of the Old Testament should speaks to us too. After all, holding hands and singing Kumbaya is hardly the solution to every problem.
The Lord God Yaweh is a God of Hosts and armies too. When dealing with what has become universally recognized as evil in the modern world, a strictly pacifist response to everything can often directly contradict the will of God and be an evil in and of itself.

 

[swdee]

In response to your replies to my post.
Some of you have said that God didn't command the Isaelites to commit these acts and they were punished. Yes I believe this has to be the case as after all God is a loving forgiving God.
But some of you have defended these acts saying that God is fair and just and that it was kind of the Israelites to take the virgin daughters, after they had murdered their families, because they would provide for them a home. Erm I'm just gonna have to bite my tongue here as I don't think I'm allowed to swear on these forums.

 

[heron]

Don't assume that because we are trying to provide a quick explanation, that we condone these things. You asked a very tough question, and we are trying to shed light on the situation.

We do not condone looting, raping, and oppressing. Most of those posting qualified their statements very carefully with comments about the cultural differences, the constant state of war, the biased voice of the writer, and the point that it was not God giving the instructions.

No one said that it was kind to take people from their families. I think that everyone is having similar reaction to these verses that you have.

 

[HeavenBoundByBlood]

There are many instances in the Bible where at first glance, God appears to be harsh in His Judgements. After taking in the events that lead to His actions, we can be rest assured that He is Perfect and Just in all He does. Here is one such example~

What was the timing of the events surrounding the judgment of the Amalekites?
Here are the timing elements:
Israel escapes from Egypt--Amalek immediately attacks their weak and helpless.
Soon thereafter, Amalek also makes a frontal attack on Israel, in spite of the distance, and without provocation:
"The Amalekites lived in the desert, south of Canaan around Kadesh (Gen 14:7), otherwise known as the northern part of the Negev (Num 13:29; 14:25, 43). Amalek was the son of Eliphaz (Esau's eldest boy) by a concubine named Timna (Gen 36:12) and became a "clan" or "chief" in the tribe of Esau (Gen 36:15). Thus the Amalekites were distant cousins to the Israelites. There is every possibility that they had known about the promise of the land of Canaan that had been given to Esau's twin brother, Jacob; therefore, they should not have felt any threat to their interests in the Negev had this promise been remembered and taken seriously. After all, the promise was to be a means of blessing Amalek along with all the other nations (Gen 12:3) if only they, like Abraham, would have believed. Instead they "came" (wayyabo') and attacked Israel at Rephidim--some distance south of the north-central district of the Sinai where they lived.
Indeed, given the travel path of Israel, there would have been no reason to even suspect that Israel would have tried to invade Palestine--this attack was altogether an act of aggression and attempted violation.
At that point God pronounces judgment on Amalek (including a prophetic allusion to continued conflict from Amalek: "from generation to generation"), to oppose them as a nation and to destroy them as a national entity sometime in the future. This has the effect of 'expanding' the original judicial charge from only the initial atrocity to one including recurring patterns of atrocity ('from gen to gen') [we will also see this in the discussion below on the 'walking in the sins of the fathers'.]
Israel sins against God in Num 14, and so they are beaten by Amalek in a presumptuous attack (note: the issue is not ethnic background!)
Israel wanders around for 40 years in the wilderness, while information about the power of Israel's God permeates the Land.
As Israel is about to enter the Land, God reminds them of the instruction to destroy the Amalek nation.
Also at this time, Balaam the Mesopotamian prophet specifically prophesizes to the King of Moab of the destruction of Amalek (Num 24.20). Moab and Midian were closes allies of Amalek throughout biblical history, and this prophesy would have been well known by the leadership of Amalek before they started the next couple of centuries of oppression and violence against Israel. [That Balaam was a famous prophet in this area has been confirmed by archeology.]
The Amalekites undoubtedly saw the conquests of Joshua, but there is no mention of them in the biblical record during this 10-25 year period.
Then, beginning with the period of the judges, Amalek continues the behavior of their forefathers--oppressing and attacking Israel for between 200 and 400 years (Judges 3,6,7, 10) and actually even AFTER the 'annihilation' of the main group of Amalekites (1 Sam 30).
But--during these same 200-400 years--Amalekites were welcomed into Israel as immigrants! (See the discussion on 2 Sam 1 below). There was a period of 'amnesty' and 'clemency' unparalleled in ancient history up to this time. God gave the individuals within the nation centuries to 'get out' (or maybe even time to reform the nation; it is possible that this judgment pronouncement was conditional without being stated so explicitly, as was the case with Nineveh in Jonah 3.4 and as embedded in the general principle of Jer 26.1-6 and Jer 18.7-8: "At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; 8 if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. ") As with the vast majority of the Canaanite population, the sensible Amalekites would have migrated somewhere else. All that would have been left at the time of Saul would have been a leadership raised and steeped in anti-Israel violence and hatred. This is NOT some innocent nation, protecting its homeland from an invading and greedy people. This is the sins of the fathers being continued by their children.

It is only after 200-400 years of opportunity and influences to change, and after 200-400 years of continued (and actually escalating) violence against Israel (who had not even been sanctioned or ordered to occupy Amalekite territory!), that God decides to execute the judgment given earlier.

The execution of the king of the Amalekites by Samuel (in 1 Samuel 15) shows that the judgment on the Amalekites was not SOLELY due to the ancient, initial savagery against Israel, but also included PRESENT atrocities as well. In fact, the initial atrocity is not mentioned at all in this judgment.
Then Samuel said, "Bring me Agag king of the Amalekites." Agag came to him confidently, thinking, "Surely the bitterness of death is past."
33 But Samuel said,
"As your sword has made women childless, so will your mother be childless among women."
And Samuel put Agag to death before the LORD at Gilgal.

I think if one takes into account all of the events that lead to the destruction of people in the Bible, we will see that God was more than patient in His dealings with them. Although there are some that are disturbing, I feel we can be confident in knowing He is the Judge and His Judgements are perfect.

Hope this helps,
~Tommy

 

[salida]

swdee--

Because of your comments its obvious that you arn't understanding the Bible at all. A hyprocrite is when a person says He is a christian but doesn't act like one. In Old Testament times they were under the law and the New Testament is a fulfillment of the Old Testament because Christ rose again.

I strongly suggest that you go to a bible study.

 

[heron]

Many of us go through this same process of grasping the love/war dichotomy when we're reading. It shouldn't be unusual at all to question it. I understand how sad the connection is between contemporary militant groups and stories of our own faith. But this is a great opportunity to research and resolve it within yourself, rather than pull away.

It seems that the realization was so appalling that you'd rather not spend time on it. But just let it settle for a bit, and start looking into it. Ask God why.

The people who answered here are so disconnected from the original events, and most of us probably haven't spend much time on the passages you quoted. We're really not proper representatives of the events.

It's a good opportunity to find your own resources for checking discrepancies and issues that disturb you, for drawing nearer to God with honesty and inquisitiveness.

It's also a chance to see how the Bible is viewed in your church. Are there points that are taken so literally that common sense is tossed away... are excerpts used like magic spells ... do people quote statements wrongly out context.

 

[tapero]

swdee--

Because of your comments its obvious that you arn't understanding the Bible at all. A hyprocrite is when a person says He is a christian but doesn't act like one. In Old Testament times they were under the law and the New Testament is a fulfillment of the Old Testament because Christ rose again.

I strongly suggest that you go to a bible study.

Hope you don't mind me clarifying. We are all hypocrites. Christians do sin. You may not see it in them at church, but trust me at home, they sin, and there is sin our hearts, such as pride, worry, etc.

God will help us all our lives, yet we will barely touch the surface of our sins in this lifetime that is deeply rooted in our hearts.

A hyprocrite is when a person says He is a christian but doesn't act like one.

A hypocrite is every one of us as a Christian. We don't need to act like a Christian, we are Christians. If we are real with others they will see more clearly. Not saying you aren't real in any way, but we need to be who we are, and we fail and fall short all the time.

Blessings,
tapero

 

[heron]

So are you hypocrites for thinking (quite rightly) that genocide and the kidnapping of women is evil yet condone it if it's in the bible?

hyp·o·crite

1.a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, esp. a person whose actions belie stated beliefs. 2.a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude, esp. one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements.

American Heritage Dictionary
hyp·o·crite
n. A person given to hypocrisy.


[Middle English ipocrite, from Old French, from Late Latin hypocrita, from Greek hupocritēs, actor, from hupokrīnesthai, to play a part, pretend ]


I think that most of us simply are in a long and complex faith walk that has no ending; we do not suddenly arrive at understanding of all Judeo-Christian writings. There are many things going on in our lives, many ups and downs in our faith, and many parts of Christianity that we set aside in order to pursue more pressing parts.

 

[ContentInHim]

In response to your replies to my post.
Some of you have said that God didn't command the Isaelites to commit these acts and they were punished. Yes I believe this has to be the case as after all God is a loving forgiving God.
But some of you have defended these acts saying that God is fair and just and that it was kind of the Israelites to take the virgin daughters, after they had murdered their families, because they would provide for them a home. Erm I'm just gonna have to bite my tongue here as I don't think I'm allowed to swear on these forums.

Those daughters were taken so that the Tribe of Benjamin would not be extinguished from the face of the earth. They were "given", as it were, by their fathers but the fathers had to pretend they were stolen.

Try reading the Bible for yourself instead of posting from some atheist Bible believers are hypocrites site.