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Are you hypocrites?

swdee

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I was in church last Sunday and they showed a video of the appalling genocide in Africa where whole villages are murdered (man, women, children and babies) and their young daughters are taken by the soldiers for sex.
Yes this is horrific, but then I remembered in the bible the exact same thing was done by the Israelites just because (supposedly) God told them to.

So are you hypocrites for thinking (quite rightly) that genocide and the kidnapping of women is evil yet condone it if it's in the bible?
 

MethodMan

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It is not "condoned" in the Bible. I think you have mischaracterized the passage but I can't tell since you did not cite it.

Many of the things God told Israel to do were to protect Israel. Not to promote something else.

Care to get more specific?
 
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HypnoToad

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Being the creator, God has authority over all life. At some point, everybody dies. It is God's right to determine when that time is. If God commanded people to be killed, He is exercising His rightful authority.

Those men in Africa have no such authority over life.
 
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HisArrow

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God never told the Israelites to capture the women for sex. This was done by the Israelites and they were punished for it. There are stories in the Bible that shows God's people sinning like King David. But that just shows that everyone is human, makes mistakes and need forgiveness from God. Forgiveness is given and one should try not to do that sin anymore. That is treue repentance.
 
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Rafael

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I was in church last Sunday and they showed a video of the appalling genocide in Africa where whole villages are murdered (man, women, children and babies) and their young daughters are taken by the soldiers for sex.
Yes this is horrific, but then I remembered in the bible the exact same thing was done by the Israelites just because (supposedly) God told them to.

So are you hypocrites for thinking (quite rightly) that genocide and the kidnapping of women is evil yet condone it if it's in the bible?
Nobody that calls themselves after Christ's name truthfully would ever condone what you accuse us of by implication. The commandments are to love God and to love our neighbors. These two commandments fulfill the law and the prophets.
God transcends the judgment of man as Creator, being able to bring back to life again, as nothing is ever lost to Him. If one looks closely and follows the context of scripture, God generally warned those who practiced evil and would give them time and terms to repent. However, some practiced deeds that required immediate judgment, following generations that taught their children to live ungodly lives and to practice things like sacrifice of children to false gods such as baal and ashteroth.
We are told that the second death is the one that is for eternity and to be feared as final judgment
 
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MikeMcK

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I was in church last Sunday and they showed a video of the appalling genocide in Africa where whole villages are murdered (man, women, children and babies) and their young daughters are taken by the soldiers for sex.
Yes this is horrific, but then I remembered in the bible the exact same thing was done by the Israelites just because (supposedly) God told them to.

So are you hypocrites for thinking (quite rightly) that genocide and the kidnapping of women is evil yet condone it if it's in the bible?

Would you mind citing scripture for us so we know what you're talking about?
 
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swdee

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Here are just some of the verses i am talking about:

(Judges 21:10-24 NLT)
So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."

Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.


(Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)

They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

(2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)

Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'
Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die." [The child dies seven days later.]

(Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)

"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."

(Judges 5:30 NAB)

They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil.


Some of you have mentioned that God killings are just because the people were evil.
I'd like to know what acts of evil new born babies and young children have done.
Where's God's forgiving nature here? Imagine if today a preacher said he heard God tell him that the christians in his town must murder everyone in the next town....
 
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heron

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Where's God's forgiving nature here? Imagine if today a preacher said he heard God tell him that the christians in his town must murder everyone in the next town....

Wonderful research. You're right, many Christians today would not be comfortable with these passages.

The Israelites were not just a religious group, but a nation of people who were constantly under attack. You will find plenty of battles in the Bible that they lost... and times where they were in slavery because of losing battles.

Winning was not just about taking, but about ensuring survival for one's family. If you didn't win in battle, your family was destroyed or taken captive.

I can't speak for their attitude about women, other than bringing up the fact that without birth control, women in these societies spent most of their time jobless, raising kids... husbands were providers and protectors.

You might even contrast the wife concept to the more typical rape scenario... where other soldiers might just loot and destroy, these soldiers offered to include foreign women in their families, and provide for them after the battle.

I know it sounds like a very warped stretch of the imagination, but just recognize that the societies most CF members live in are very safe and orderly, and battles are rarely fought at our front doors.
 
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tapero

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I was in church last Sunday and they showed a video of the appalling genocide in Africa where whole villages are murdered (man, women, children and babies) and their young daughters are taken by the soldiers for sex.
Yes this is horrific, but then I remembered in the bible the exact same thing was done by the Israelites just because (supposedly) God told them to.

So are you hypocrites for thinking (quite rightly) that genocide and the kidnapping of women is evil yet condone it if it's in the bible?

First of all, speaking for me, yes, i know I am a hypocrite. Were I perfect I would not be, but I know I am sometimes different than the real me. I won't make a blanket statement as not to offend, but, yes I'm a hypocrite sometimes.

What happened in the bible, where God commanded things to be carried out, since He does no evil, is all good, fair, just, righteous - though I can't grasp it all in the old testament, i know that God is not evil. So, no, evil was not done, for God would never command someone to do evil.

It's a matter of faith,

gonna read on, only read first post,
blessings,
tapero
 
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tapero

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Some of you have mentioned that God killings are just because the people were evil.

I'd like to know what acts of evil new born babies and young children have done.
Where's God's forgiving nature here? Imagine if today a preacher said he heard God tell him that the christians in his town must murder everyone in the next town....

okay, many believe that babies, and those who are as of yet to grasp the concept of salvation are in heaven when they pass. Some call it an age of accountability, not mentioned in the bible, but that's the common belief.

You say imagne if a preacher. A preacher is not God, no where near God, he is no different from me, as God says we all are the same. So, if someone believes a preacher that is lying to them, their is a problem where people have put trust in someone who is untrustworthy.

Preachers are not to be followed. Christ alone is to be followed.

Blessings,
tapero
 
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Saint Melania

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Sometimes the stories recorded in the Old Testament is simply a history of what happened. It looks like the parts you mentioned were the decisions of the leaders of Israel, trying to follow God's commands, I suppose. It still seems as though they interpreted it that way, but I do not see anywhere that God actually commanded this to take place.
 
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tapero

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God does not command to kill. We will each be rewarded or punished for eternity by God's judgement.

In NT times, no God does not command us to kill, however in the OT God did command His people to kill others in certain passages.

However, God is just, fair, true, righteous, pure, Holy, does no evil, wonderful, lovely, all consuming, Judge, etc.
 
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heron

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Find out why they were going to war in each passage, or why God was holding them accountable.

Sometimes the stories recorded in the Old Testament is simply a history of what happened.
Definitely. There are parts of the Bible that read as inspirational material, but so much of it was written as long passages of recorded activity.

People tend to pick verses out of the middle and quote them, but doing that throughout the Bible would be just plain scary. There are stories of scheming, adultery, trickery, suicidal thoughts, bad advice... the human experience is in there.
 
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Criada

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Here are just some of the verses i am talking about:

(Judges 21:10-24 NLT)
So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."

Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.


(Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)

They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

(2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)

Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'
Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die." [The child dies seven days later.]

(Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)

"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."

(Judges 5:30 NAB)

They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil.


Some of you have mentioned that God killings are just because the people were evil.
I'd like to know what acts of evil new born babies and young children have done.
Where's God's forgiving nature here? Imagine if today a preacher said he heard God tell him that the christians in his town must murder everyone in the next town....


I don't understand this. I certainly would not condone anyone behaving this way.

BUT - I know my God is just, merciful and loving. I cannot ever fully understand Him, but I trust Him, because I know that He is good.

We cannot judge God by our standards of justice, because He is Justice. Our ideas of what is right and wrong are only poor reflections of our Creator.

And so, I don't think I am a hypocrite with regard to this ( though I am in other ways!).
I am simply a creature who cannot fully understand the ways of my Creator, but will always trust in His righteousness and love.
 
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Key

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Here are just some of the verses i am talking about:

First of all, this is Before Christ, this is the Jewish way, and life was very hard back then.

I grasp that it is hard to grasp what life was like in these times, when we have a Starbucks on every street corner, and a McD's on each block.

So I will apologize in advance if what I am about to say, will not make any sense to you today in your current culture.

(Judges 21:10-24 NLT)
So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives.


First off, we see that this was not done to "Claim the Land" or take over the place, as all was given to God, this was not done for personal gain. That is a very big issue back then, because, no "power" was gained from this attack.

Secondly the woman that were taken, were taken as wives, not sex slaves, they were not "Used and Abused then Thrown Away" these ladies were treated with respect and accepted into the People, as Wives.

The alternative was either kill them, or let someone else plunder them for sex while they starved.

But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."

This is also a good part, these woman were to become the pride of that Tribe, not cast aways, but woman of respect, gifted with what their husbands could provide.

As for the city, not a single coin, or food was taken, not was there any means to continue control of the land, so greed was not motive.

Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.

Another part, This is funny, because you need to grasp that they were looking (All of them) were looking for a way around this "Oath" this was not a "Grab and Rape" idea, they knew what was going on, and this was a means to save face, as well not destroy a tribe.


(Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)
They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

Fair enough, but you need to grasp they lost slaves, this was not something just to be given up. Unlike today, such a loss is a great loss.

However, you also need to grasp that to the victor goes the plunder, and what they did, was what was done in those times. However, today with all this PC junk, life and even war has changed.

(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace.


This is a rare display of benevolences.

If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

This was "Tuesday" in the life and times that they lived in. This was the norm.

(2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)

Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'
Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die." [The child dies seven days later.]

Such is life, this was not an evil act, anymore then God letting you breath today is a promise that you will see tomorrow. Each day you live is a gift from God, not a promise. Such, as with any life, it is Gods to give, and Gods to take away.

(Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)

"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."

Another great display of benevolence by the Jewish people, to even allow mourning, and freedom. This was truly mercy and respect of the highest order in this time and life way.

(Judges 5:30 NAB)
They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil.


Some of you have mentioned that God killings are just because the people were evil.
I'd like to know what acts of evil new born babies and young children have done.


The child has bore the burden of the sins of the father.

Where's God's forgiving nature here?

In Freedom.

In Wifehood.

In Life at all.

In a great many ways, God has shown Mercy, where none was ever given.

Imagine if today a preacher said he heard God tell him that the christians in his town must murder everyone in the next town....

All of this again, is Before Christ came into the Picture.

If you have something that targets Christianity directly, then please show it, if all you have is Jewish history, then I strongly suggest that you bring this up with the Jewish people.

God Bless

Key.
 
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