Are we Sancified or are we in the process of being sancified?

[JimfromOhio]

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[nephilimiyr]

Bump

Ok, would you like to comment on this post of mine then? From post #14:

"So what you guys are saying then is that you agree with me that in spirit we are 100% sanctified but in body and soul we are not and it's our body and soul in which we are in the process of sanctification? If so than I can agree with that.

I would just add that until we recieve our glorified resurrected bodies we will always be in the process of that sanctification."

 

[JimfromOhio]

Ok, would you like to comment on this post of mine then? From post #14:

"So what you guys are saying then is that you agree with me that in spirit we are 100% sanctified but in body and soul we are not and it's our body and soul in which we are in the process of sanctification? If so than I can agree with that.

I would just add that until we recieve our glorified resurrected bodies we will always be in the process of that sanctification."

Spiritually....When we receive Jesus Christ, are born again, and enter into God's kingdom, we become a totally different individual. The change that occurs when we're saved is more dramatic than the change that will occur when we die. Why? Because we already have a new nature and we already are a citizen of God's kingdom. All death does is enable us to enter into God's presence. Now the question: "If I'm such a new creation, how come I still sin?" Christians continue to sin because their new nature is encased in a smelly old coat known as the flesh. In Romans 7:17-18 Paul says, "It is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me ... (that is, in my flesh)" (cf. v. 20). When I sin it is not my new nature that sins, but the "sin that dwelleth in me." Sin dwells in my humanness--the smelly coat that my new nature has to endure until it goes to be with the Lord. What we need to do is to get rid of that coat. In 1 Peter 2:1 the Greek word translated "laying aside" literally means "to strip off clothes." We are to take off the dirty clothes of our flesh and throw them away.

Initial sanctification occurs instantly at the moment of salvation when we are delivered from the kingdom of darkness and brought into the Kingdom of Christ (see Colossians 1:13).

Progressive sanctification continues over time until we go to be with the Lord.

Initial sanctification is entirely the work of God the Holy Spirit who imparts to us the very life of Christ.

Progressive sanctification is also the work of the Holy Spirit, but it involves a response on our part so that we as believers are actively involved in the process.

 

[nephilimiyr]

Spiritually....When we receive Jesus Christ, are born again, and enter into God's kingdom, we become a totally different individual. The change that occurs when we're saved is more dramatic than the change that will occur when we die. Why? Because we already have a new nature and we already are a citizen of God's kingdom. All death does is enable us to enter into God's presence.

All of this you say above I completely agree with. To me it's a bit vague, and if this was the first time I ever heard this I know I would have a whole bunch of questions. I would ask you for more specifics like, what exactly is this change about, what has actually changed?

Now the question: "If I'm such a new creation, how come I still sin?" Christians continue to sin because their new nature is encased in a smelly old coat known as the flesh.

Again, no problems here, it's poetic. I like taking a more practical approach on how to answer that question. Yes, our new nature is hidden in our flesh. Our new nature is something we can't see or feel. Our flesh, both physical and mental, can be seen and felt, our new nature we can't and is the major reason why even though something major in you had changed you wont know about it unless you read about it in God's word or someone explains it to you. Jim, I don't know if you want me to explain this all our here right now but that is where I would start.

In Romans 7:17-18 Paul says, "It is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me ... (that is, in my flesh)" (cf. v. 20). When I sin it is not my new nature that sins, but the "sin that dwelleth in me." Sin dwells in my humanness--the smelly coat that my new nature has to endure until it goes to be with the Lord. What we need to do is to get rid of that coat. In 1 Peter 2:1 the Greek word translated "laying aside" literally means "to strip off clothes." We are to take off the dirty clothes of our flesh and throw them away.

Here is where we have difference's, but first let me say we both absolutely agree that our new self doesn't sin. I'm really glad we can agree with that. Otherwise you bring up what Paul is saying about the sinful nature in Romans 7. There are two keys to this that I see, one is in chapter 6 where Paul in verse 6 says that our old self was crucified, that means it was put to death.

The second key is in verse 23 of chapter 7:
Romans 7:23, But I see another law at work in my members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.
The key is the word "law". This law is an influence, Paul's saying it's influencing the members of his body and mind. After what Paul said in Rom. 6 about our old self having been crucified this law can't be the old self itself, or sinful nature, but if this law that is at work is actually residue from the old self then it very well can still influence you. I can't ignor Rom. 6:6, I have to apply it to these verses.

Initial sanctification occurs instantly at the moment of salvation when we are delivered from the kingdom of darkness and brought into the Kingdom of Christ (see Colossians 1:13).

Progressive sanctification continues over time until we go to be with the Lord.

Initial sanctification is entirely the work of God the Holy Spirit who imparts to us the very life of Christ.

Progressive sanctification is also the work of the Holy Spirit, but it involves a response on our part so that we as believers are actively involved in the process.

The rest of this I agree with 100%

 

[JimfromOhio]

All of this you say above I completely agree with. To me it's a bit vague, and if this was the first time I ever heard this I know I would have a whole bunch of questions. I would ask you for more specifics like, what exactly is this change about, what has actually changed?


Again, no problems here, it's poetic. I like taking a more practical approach on how to answer that question. Yes, our new nature is hidden in our flesh. Our new nature is something we can't see or feel. Our flesh, both physical and mental, can be seen and felt, our new nature we can't and is the major reason why even though something major in you had changed you wont know about it unless you read about it in God's word or someone explains it to you. Jim, I don't know if you want me to explain this all our here right now but that is where I would start.


Here is where we have difference's, but first let me say we both absolutely agree that our new self doesn't sin. I'm really glad we can agree with that. Otherwise you bring up what Paul is saying about the sinful nature in Romans 7. There are two keys to this that I see, one is in chapter 6 where Paul in verse 6 says that our old self was crucified, that means it was put to death.

The second key is in verse 23 of chapter 7:
Romans 7:23, But I see another law at work in my members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.
The key is the word "law". This law is an influence, Paul's saying it's influencing the members of his body and mind. After what Paul said in Rom. 6 about our old self having been crucified this law can't be the old self itself, or sinful nature, but if this law that is at work is actually residue from the old self then it very well can still influence you. I can't ignor Rom. 6:6, I have to apply it to these verses.


The rest of this I agree with 100%

This is what I have learned on my own as a Christian in the past 40 yrs.

In sanctification God has to deal with us on the death side as well as on the life side. When we got saved, we were justified which is "declared righteous". Justification cannot be separated from sanctification. We are declared righteous in justification, and then the process of making us righteous begins to function in this sinful world. The process of sanctification goes on all our life long and it will never be completed until the day we die. There is no virtue in exposing yourself to error. Truth sanctifies and sanctification is between our justification and our glorification. Progressing in our sanctification and our spiritual growth and it only happens as we live in the environment of the truth and respond to that truth, and obey that truth, and avoid anything that diminishes our understanding of that truth or perverts that truth.

One of the perverts is behavior modifications. Many Christians do NOT see the total depravity of man due to sin because they treat the symptoms of sins instead of the heart (where sin is actually located); and they aim for change that is not true sanctification. Is behavior modification more helpful than sanctification? According to Romans 8:9, the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the mark of all who are truly born again: "You are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him."

It would be nice not to have any regrets. If I had no regrets, I would never grow. Pride is at the bottom of all great mistakes. When studying the Word, I have to be careful because my flesh is always searching for pleasure, pride, passions and selfish motives. Sinning by accident is part of our sinful nature because those who are in Christ Romans 7:18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. Galatians 5:17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want.

I am learning that "holiness" is the balance between my nature and the law of God as expressed in Jesus Christ within me. True "sanctification" is only through the Holy Spirit who produce the evidence of my own true spiritual condition, humility and intimacy with God that my flesh CANNOT DO. We need to guard our minds, emotions, and wills, "bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ" (2 Cor. 10:5). I will never be perfect as long as I live in my body which is why God's grace is more than sufficient.

 

[nephilimiyr]

Thanks Jim, that was inspiring. I'm glad we could find more to agree upon than to disagree. However I have determined that I simply don't belong anymore to this forum, I know you understand what I'm saying as I know you have felt the sameway yourself. But if I'm seen as more of a problem than a solution than it's time for me to move on...

 

[JimfromOhio]

Thanks Jim, that was inspiring. I'm glad we could find more to agree upon than to disagree. However I have determined that I simply don't belong anymore to this forum, I know you understand what I'm saying as I know you have felt the sameway yourself. But if I'm seen as more of a problem than a solution than it's time for me to move on...

You are welcome. I am not sure if I will hang around much longer. I enjoy debating with all Christians from different doctrinal backgrounds because I can learn alot about my own faith by studying more. The debates I have been dealing with were not productive debates. Compromising (agree to disagree) over belief is okay me because almost everyone has a different belief system than I do. I have learned that people will not always agree with someone completely. We tend to drag certain doctrines too long.

 

[nephilimiyr]

You are welcome. I am not sure if I will hang around much longer. I enjoy debating with all Christians from different doctrinal backgrounds because I can learn alot about my own faith by studying more. The debates I have been dealing with were not productive debates. Compromising (agree to disagree) over belief is okay me because almost everyone has a different belief system than I do. I have learned that people will not always agree with someone completely. We tend to drag certain doctrines too long.

Yeah, I can agree with that also. I'm going to use GT for now. I've been going over there more and more lately, and maybe I'll try the Non-denominational forum as well. I've found a few other forum websits also so I wont be left with a void.

God bless.

 

[rebekahy2k]

I just wanted to comment about this quote at the end of your post about just believing and that being enough to gain salvation.

It seems to me that if you truly believe, you take it to heart and you try with all your might to follow your beliefs.

Plus, Jesus said many other things about salvation.

So if you believe in Jesus, then you believe in ALL his teachings.

Do people really think we can just kind of casually enter the kingdom of God without some great efforts??

It worries me that many people seem to think you can just say "I believe" and that is all you need to do

Jesus said to take up your cross daily and follow me

Hebrews 10:10, And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Some translations use the word sanctification instead of holy, it means the samething. And when Ephesians says this:
EPH. 4:24, and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
I know that I am already holy, sanctified, in my born again spirit. Instead of striving and struggling to make myself sanctified I'm going to believe Paul and realize that I am already there in spirit, I just need to renew my mind to that truth.

 

[JimfromOhio]

I just wanted to comment about this quote at the end of your post about just believing and that being enough to gain salvation.

It seems to me that if you truly believe, you take it to heart and you try with all your might to follow your beliefs.

Plus, Jesus said many other things about salvation.

So if you believe in Jesus, then you believe in ALL his teachings.

Do people really think we can just kind of casually enter the kingdom of God without some great efforts??

It worries me that many people seem to think you can just say "I believe" and that is all you need to do

Jesus said to take up your cross daily and follow me

Hi there. I agree with you however I believe what this is related to obedience more than sanctification. Anyway, I wanted to follow up to your comment. I agree. Jesus might have grieved over His Cost of Discipleship requirements, but He never ran after them to try to win them with rosy promises. Luke 14:27 And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:33 In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple.

One of my favorite quotes is from Bonhoeffer's best definition of the Cross is this: "Salvation is free, ... but discipleship will cost you your life."

 

[nephilimiyr]

I just wanted to comment about this quote at the end of your post about just believing and that being enough to gain salvation.

It seems to me that if you truly believe, you take it to heart and you try with all your might to follow your beliefs.

No where in that post did I say that all we have to do is believe, I wasn't even talking about salvation. I'm not even sure where you got that from. What I did say is that we have to renew our minds to the truth of what God has done inside us.


If you believe it's all by your efforts then you have reason to boast. EPH. 2:9, not by works, so that no one can boast.
And to me, here you are saying we're supposed to do the opposite. And Paul goes even further:
EPH. 2:10, For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
We are not our own workmanship, we're God's. The good works that we do has been prepared in advance.

Plus, Jesus said many other things about salvation.

That's right, He did, and none of what He said about salvation had anything to do with us striving and struggling with our own might in or to achieve salvation.

So if you believe in Jesus, then you believe in ALL his teachings.

Do people really think we can just kind of casually enter the kingdom of God without some great efforts??

Show me scripture where Jesus said we must make great efforts to enter his kingdom. There are none but since you believe this I ask that you at least show me scripture that gives you this idea.

It worries me that many people seem to think you can just say "I believe" and that is all you need to do

Jesus said to take up your cross daily and follow me

And if it takes such a great effort for you to do that then may I suggest that Jesus gave us an easier way? What tends to worry me are those people who teach that Jesus' yoke is difficult and his burden is heavy. Sorry but that is not what I read, nor is it what I believe.
Matt. 11:28-30, Come to me, all who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.
If you have to try with all your might and make great efforts to enter his kingdom then that yoke is too difficult and the burden too heavy.

 

[For_Crying_Out_Loud]

I partially agree with both Nephilim and Rebekah.

We are saved by grace, and grace alone.

However - any branch that does not bear good fruit will be cut off and burned. Or: You tell me about your faith, I will show you my faith by my works.

 

[DeborahsSong]

We are sanctified by the very nature of the new life we bear. We simply are holy. There is a process involved, but its not "sanctification", since it is impossible to make the old self holy. Rather, the process is the soul's identifcation with its new self.

Salvation is being made whole and delivered from distress. It should not be confused with reconciliation or justification, both of which have already occurred. Peter says that we are receiving the goal of our faith, the salvation of our souls. (1 Peter 1:9). We are saved when we realize that we are holy, perfect beings. Then, the Son can present us to the Father without accusation, because we won't be accusing ourselves. (Col 1:22,23).

At first this is a matter of faith (and God supplies the faith), because the unrenewed mind was taken hostage by the carnal nature (Ro 7:23), and identifies with it, but as we continue to look in the mirror of God's word, we will not forget the face we see there (Ja 1:23). In other words, if we believe God has justified us by the blood and resurrection of Jesus Christ and faith in His word, believe also that we are holy and without blemish by faith in His word.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Hebrews 10:10, And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Some translations use the word sanctification instead of holy, it means the samething. And when Ephesians says this:
EPH. 4:24, and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
I know that I am already holy, sanctified, in my born again spirit. Instead of striving and struggling to make myself sanctified I'm going to believe Paul and realize that I am already there in spirit, I just need to renew my mind to that truth.

There are two senses of the word.

One has to do with what we already are . . . saints, holy ones, what has already been done in our heart internally . . . it is a synonym with JUSTIFIED.

The second sense has to do with allowing what is internally true inside (the holy NEW man) out through the members of the body so that the holiness that is internal is now seen externally. This is the war to crucify the flesh and is often called sanctification. Not that we become more holy than we already are, as if the blood of Christ does not completely do its work, but that the unholy actions of the flesh become the holy actions of the man who is no longer under the law but under grace. It is the war of Romans 7.

The two uses are seen here:

Heb 10:10
10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
NASU

where the author refers to the once and done act upon our souls in justification

and

Heb 12:12-16
12 Therefore, strengthen the hands that are weak and the knees that are feeble, 13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that the limb which is lame may not be put out of joint, but rather be healed.
14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled; 16 that there be no immoral or godless person
NASU

Where the same author who sees the persons he is writing to as already sanctfied, STILL admonishes them to pursue sanctification!

Well are we or are we not? The solution is two different meanings.

The first is justification . . . the second is not so forensic of a concept and has to do with the day to day life/walk of the Christian.

 

[Simon_Templar]

Hebrews 10:10, And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Some translations use the word sanctification instead of holy, it means the samething. And when Ephesians says this:
EPH. 4:24, and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
I know that I am already holy, sanctified, in my born again spirit. Instead of striving and struggling to make myself sanctified I'm going to believe Paul and realize that I am already there in spirit, I just need to renew my mind to that truth.

The answer, to the best of my understanding is... both.

There are two kinds of grace, and two kinds of sanctification... one has been called "positional" or "relational". This refers to the idea that by grace, we have been moved from the position, or relation, of being God's enemy, to the position, or relation of being God's family.
In this view, the effect of grace, the sanctification is not a change in the person, or their character, but rather a change in how God sees them and how God treats them.

The second kind of grace, and resulting sanctification is what might be called (and probably has been) transformational. Its work, and effect is within the person, within their character. The person is actually changed, transformed... or perhaps even better.. conformed.

 

[upinarms]

The problem with the both answer is we have a problem. Is God a lair? God said it is complete and done heb. 10;10 and 10;14 the NAS bible uses the word perfected in ver. 14 but I think the word completed is closer to the greek. So where is the problem? I believe it is in the sight of man that walks by the sight of man and not by the faith of Jesus Christ Heb. 12;2 opps there perfecter it should be completer of faith. As long as man walks by the eye sight of man he will always be the lair. "Let God be true and everyman a lair." But man will cry out I don't see it and there end calls God a lair so how can he ever see it? I have a novel idea let go with what God say's and see's and let see what happeans for a change.

 

[JimfromOhio]

The problem with the both answer is we have a problem. Is God a lair? God said it is complete and done heb. 10;10 and 10;14 the NAS bible uses the word perfected in ver. 14 but I think the word completed is closer to the greek. So where is the problem? I believe it is in the sight of man that walks by the sight of man and not by the faith of Jesus Christ Heb. 12;2 opps there perfecter it should be completer of faith. As long as man walks but the eye sight of man he will always be the lair. "Let God be true and everyman a lair." But man will cry out I don't see it and there end calls God a lair so how can he ever see it? I have a novel idea let go with what God say's and see's and let see what happeans for a change.

Sanctification and justification are both gifts from God and expressions of His grace. Though they are each distinct aspects of salvation, they can never be separated. God never grants justification without also giving sanctification at the same time. Justification is God’s declaration that a believing sinner is righteous because of the merits of Christ imputed to him. Sanctification is the believer leaving the courtroom where God has once and for all time declared him righteous, and immediately beginning the process whereby God’s Spirit enables him to increasingly conform to Christ's righteousness, both inwardly and outwardly. In one sense we may say that sanctification has nothing to do with regeneration or justification, and yet it has everything to do with demonstrating that one has experienced them.

 

[upinarms]

Sanctification and justification are both gifts from God and expressions of His grace. Though they are each distinct aspects of salvation, they can never be separated. God never grants justification without also giving sanctification at the same time. Justification is God’s declaration that a believing sinner is righteous because of the merits of Christ imputed to him. Sanctification is the believer leaving the courtroom where God has once and for all time declared him righteous, and immediately beginning the process whereby God’s Spirit enables him to increasingly conform to Christ's righteousness, both inwardly and outwardly. In one sense we may say that sanctification has nothing to do with regeneration or justification, and yet it has everything to do with demonstrating that one has experienced them.

Here in is the problem God doesn't go along with that doctrine. James 1;17 "every good thing given and every perfect (completed) gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow."
If the gifts are perfect when given why can't man take God at His word? Great food for the innerman to eat. Thank you for your post.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Here in is the problem God doesn't go along with that doctrine. James 1;17 "every good thing given and every perfect (completed) gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow."
If the gifts are perfect when given why can't man take God at His word? Great food for for the innerman to eat. Thank you for your post.

Consider this then, God's promise is eternal because Christ is the mediator of the covenant, that we receive the promised eternal inheritance. With that promise, as a Christian, I always thank God continually for my guarantee of my spiritual security and freedom in Christ. I love this verse, Titus 1:2 that said "a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time."

Hebrews 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

 

[upinarms]

Consider this then, God's promise is eternal because Christ is the mediator of the covenant, that we receive the promised eternal inheritance. With that promise, as a Christian, I always thank God continually for my guarantee of my spiritual security and freedom in Christ. I love this verse, Titus 1:2 that said "a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time."

Hebrews 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

Outstanding!!!!!!!!!!!!! I for one grew up under the teaching of some day it will come to be. Yet after 40 plus years that someday has never come only "hold on it will happean" I have now come to see it as that day has come and I was the one that miss it. Philp.3;15 "Let us therefore, as many as are perfect (complete), have this attitude, and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you."
I came to understand it not my going down to there level of understanding but God showning them and me His level. I hope this makes sense.
your are a spring of living water before the Lord drink your fill for the Lord on High is well please with you.