Are we required to forgive?

[Fish and Bread]

J
Well, there's plenty of blame, hurt, discomfort and anger to go around. I think people for a few times a year should set aside their differences and celebrate holidays, etc. without trying to manipulate things.

Ideally, folks would be able to set aside their differences around the holidays, but it's not an ideal world. If we got your mother and your sister in a room together for several holidays of Christmas merriment, it might seem like a great idea in theory, but actually, the way these things usually work when there is such severe conflict is that it begins with a lot of discomfort and people not having a very good time, and ends with people screaming at each other. One can't force mutual joy and merriment upon people who really have deep abiding severe issues with each other. It'd just ruin everyone's holiday, including your's, because you'd have to try to referee the conflict.

Peace on earth and goodwill towards men are good things, but you can't force them on people. Better to have two separate fun and peaceful gatherings on different days with different parts of your family than one gathering on the same day that turns in World War III. Then hope in a year or a few years, it all dies down a little.

The other thing is, to be blunt, your problem with your sister is that she's judging your mother based on how her mother treats her father and carrying out her own "sentence", and here you are judging your sister based on how she treats her mother and thinking of carrying out your own "sentence" on her. Set an example by not judging your sister harshly. If she wants a separate gathering on a different day, do it with a smile. Just give your mother the "prime" days (i.e. December 25th, Easter Day, etc., and do stuff with your sister on nearby days like Christmas Eve or December 26th or the weekend after Easter or whatever). That's my best advice. I say that with the disclaimer that my advice is usually horrible and generally wrong-headed, but I try my best to come up with good advice, even though I often fail.

 

[Veritas]

You can judge that. If you don't believe someone is sorry, then tell them that. If you are being honest about it and sincerely believe that they aren't sorry, then there is no reason why you must forgive them.
They should be given the benefit of any doubt though.
We are judging someone to heaven or hell by our forgiveness.

See, this is the hardcore thing that just irritates me. What do my beliefs regarding another's sincerity have to do with the truth? Further, I have posted this same question elsewhere with non-Catholics and have yet to come across the attitudes here of harbouring unforgiveness toward someone who has apologized. I'd hate to think what things would be like if you were my brother!

It's really too bad that you have to play those games. Wouldn't it be nice if you could just say to her : 'sis, I think you and I both know theres some tension between us right now and I think it would really help our relationship in the long run if we distanced ourselves from each other for awhile. I'd still love to see the kids and would like to set up a schedule whearby I could pick them up at regular intervals, etc.. etc... and by the way I love you too and I think it would be beneficial to us in the long run if we both had some time away from eachother to come to a more objective view of things"

Healthy, theoretical stuff like that never works. Families are too complicated I guess.

Actually, I kinda like this idea. Don't know if she'd go for it. But still, I know the kids would feel like they were missing out on our relationship if we didn't see each other regularly. You have no idea what I'd unleash if I wasn't worried about her reaction!

At the moment, I'm sure she does. But down deep in her heart and sub-conscious, she knows better. She is reacting out of hurt and anger and probably many other mixed emotions, and in time, the hurt and anger and these other emotions will subside and she will grow to miss her mom and the warmth of her mom's love. In time, she will forgive. Life lessons teach us so many things and eventually, we do learn to forgive situations and those who we feel have hurt us or wronged us... Time and prayer is a key factor.




Those are good questions which she probably will give you angry answers to. But in time, when she starts to heal, her answers would be more rationale.

I hope time will heal her wounds. I also hope she can see life more clearly as time goes on. You know, one of the biggest lessons God has taught me in the last few years has been, how NOT to judge others. I use to be very judgemental. I thought that because I hadn't committed a particular sin...say murder, I was better than the murderer. Then I recalled how the Word tells us that if we have committed even ONE sin, we've committed them ALL! That brought me down a few notches. Maybe if my sister realized that she too, is just as much a sinner as my mom, she might feel a bit more compassion. It's so easy to be on our moral high horse, when we think we're perfect.

Sis , I think the apostle Paul would disagree with you or they wouldn't have initiated it to protect the sheep in the church....I know for you this is personal but if your mom is a believer and part of a local ecclesia, they would be responsible to deal with this as it is an active situation...To condone her actions would be to say it's ok, you can do what you want we still love you...Even tho no sex physical sex has happened you have no idea what her thought life is..Does she plan to persue this relationship or has she repented..See there is a much wide sphere in operation here than just you and your sis..It would be nice if she could post her side of the story..There are two things in play here and I guess we are speaking to each one..One with your moms situation and one with you and you sister..

Anyway it is sad to have this happen and we all should keep you and your family in prayers for reconciliation for you all..Just don't let this turn into a root of bitterness for you..shalom..kim

I'm working on the "bitterness" thing, believe me. I think I've done better than I could have expected at the beginning. At any rate, I disagree with you regarding the condemning of my mom. I have made it clear with her, that I think what she has done is wrong. But I still love her and welcome her into my heart. I probably bear more anger against my father for not so much as putting up a fight. Apparently, he was quite arrogant at the suggestion of a separation. My parents will however, be divorcing soon and my mother will marry her boyfriend. I'm ok with that. Frankly, it doesn't really change anything other than they'll be living together. Any sins my mother has committed is really between her and God. He's the one she has to answer to just like the rest of us. I do understand your POV, Kim, I appreciate your presenting it in such a kind way. Bless you!

The other thing is, to be blunt, your problem with your sister is that she's judging your mother based on how her mother treats her father and carrying out her own "sentence", and here you are judging your sister based on how she treats her mother and thinking of carrying out your own "sentence" on her. Set an example by not judging your sister harshly. That's my best advice. I say that with the disclaimer that my advice is usually horrible and generally wrong-headed, but I try my best to come up with good advice, even though I often fail.

I really do appreciate your trying to help. I don't think your advise is bad at all. I think this year was particularly hard because it was the first for our disjointed family to deal with. In the years to come, I hope it will get easier. The rawness of our feelings will subside in time as Debbie has said.

Now, regarding me and my sister: I have tried not to judge my sister "harshly". I even have gone to the point of excusing her behaviour on account of her church which has led her in this direction. But I don't deny I feel anger toward her since she has done things that have hurt and effected others. Also, her shunning my mom has had the result of looking more like punishment and lacking in charity. Because I'm a sinner, I'm just not willing to cast that stone.

 

[HisKid1973]

Hey Sis..I am just curious . How is your mothers church responding to her situation...Has she received council? Has your sis said why she is taking this stand? Sorry to keep asking..I know family ties bind us, but how do you see the Lord in all this? Does your sis desire to see her restored according to Gal.6:1 ........Thanks ...Kim

I am just trying to see her side also..Maybe the spiritual issues override her physical love, in looking at it in the light of eternity..I just see her being put in a bad light in the context of the whole issue and the core problem..

 

[Globalnomad]

Just a thought....

We SHOULD love our neighbours - and our parents even more so - regardless of what they have done. Remember: hate the sin, love the sinner?

And isn't that all that forgiveness means? To go on loving and supporting someone - hoping that this love and support will keep them from going completely off track as regards God - not to despair.

In a family, that would most certainly mean maintaining contact, moral support, the feeling that whatever happens and whatever they do, they are still your close family. Most certainly celebrating Thanksgiving and Christmas together, although I can imagine taking "sabbaticals" by mutual consent, for a number of good reasons, not the least among them being: we are all feeling hurt and brittle this year, let's take the year off to lick our wounds, but we still love each other and will hopefully be together again next year.

Someone has already said it: forgiveness is more about yourself than about the other. YOU (and in this case, your sister) need to forgive, for your own sake. To get closer to God by learning to see the other person as God sees him/her, namely, with love. To restore your inner peace.

After all, what does it mean for a human being to forgive another? It is not your forgiveness that will wash away the sin in the sight of God, or the punishment due for it. Your forgiveness serves only to restore peace - your inner peace and that of the community. That is the reason for it.

Geo, methinks you are being a little harsh. Forgive only those who ask for it AND who satisfy you that they are sincere about it? That's minimalist. "Even the pagans do likewise" - only an evil person would refuse forgiveness under those circumstances. Aren't we called to do more, as Christians?

 

[BillH]

I figure that the petition in the Our Father is sufficient for me: "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."

The way that it's phrased suggests that our own forgiveness sets the standard by which God will be forgiving towards us. While I know that I should be perfectly contrite for all of my sins, I also know that there are a fair number that I would not be terribly sorry for if I was honest with myself. So, my fear would be that if I expect perfect contrition from others, I might be in a heap of trouble myself when faced with my own sins at the final judgment.

 

[geocajun]

Geo, methinks you are being a little harsh. Forgive only those who ask for it AND who satisfy you that they are sincere about it? That's minimalist. "Even the pagans do likewise" - only an evil person would refuse forgiveness under those circumstances. Aren't we called to do more, as Christians?

No, we're not. Having watched folks feel terrible guilt because they just couldn't forgive someone, and they honestly thought they were obligated to do it as a Christian, I feel it is very important to ensure folks understand what Christian teaching is, but also what it isn't. We are simply not required to forgive someone who isn't sorry, period. That isn't the teaching of the church at all, though many falsely assert that it is and I've seen it cause others serious pain.

 

[geocajun]

See, this is the hardcore thing that just irritates me. What do my beliefs regarding another's sincerity have to do with the truth? Further, I have posted this same question elsewhere with non-Catholics and have yet to come across the attitudes here of harbouring unforgiveness toward someone who has apologized. I'd hate to think what things would be like if you were my brother!

I'm just giving you the straight dope. I realize it may seem harsh when first hearing it, but just keep in mind that it is exactly how God, who is perfect and perfectly just forgives.. We aren't required to forgive those who aren't sorry, and you won't be able to find a doctrine or scripture to state otherwise. What you will find is a bunch of misinformed people on the subject.

 

[Miss Shelby]

I'd hate to think what things would be like if you were my brother!

He’s pretty easy going really. I have bitten his head off numerous times and he never even gets mad at me, much less has a problem forgiving me. There are other people here on this board who I would not want as a family member, but geo’s not one of them.

 

[geocajun]

He’s pretty easy going really. I have bitten his head off numerous times and he never even gets mad at me, much less has a problem forgiving me. There are other people here on this board who I would not want as a family member, but geo’s not one of them.

I keep a kitten around the house so I can beat it up when you are mean to me. It helps me 'keep my cool'.

 

[Miss Shelby]

Veritas, does this issue with your sister really have that much to do with your parents splitting up as it does with the fact that your sister is a Bible believing Protestant fundamentalist?. Do you find yourself at odds with her often over this, even when it concerns other things?

 

[winsome]

Nope, you aren't required to forgive anyone who isn't repentant.

It is easier to forgive when you realize that it is something positive you are doing for yourself than when you think of it as a painful sacrifice....

You both have a point but are not necessarily using forgiveness in the same way.

In Lk 17:3,4 Jesus tell us “Be on your guard! If another disciple sins, you must rebuke the offender, and if there is repentance, you must forgive. And if the same person sins against you seven times a day, and turns back to you seven times and says, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive.”

In the parable of the unforgiving debtor (Mt 18) the point Jesus was making, and condemning, was that the unforgiving debtor asked for forgiveness of the debt and was granted it. But in his turn when asked for forgiveness of the debt he refused it.

St. John also says “If we confess our sins, he who is faithful and just will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1Jn 1:9) with the implication that if we don’t confess (admit) our sin God won’t forgive us. So when in the “Our Father” we ask to God to forgive us our trespasses as we forgive others who trespass against us, the implication is that we forgive when asked, just as God forgives when asked.

Peter says in Acts 2:38“Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven.” John’s baptism was a “baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.” (Mk 1:4).
So repentance and forgiveness go together in scripture.

On the other hand Fr. Jim McManus who has written and teaches on the subject of forgiveness, says if we have been hurt by someone forgiveness is necessary for our own psychological health (whether we are asked for forgiveness or not). If we continue to hold onto our hurt, our pain, our anger, it will damage us and hold us back in life. He defines forgiveness as “the willingness to abandon one’s right to resentment, negative judgement and indifferent behaviour toward one who unjustly injured us, while fostering the undeserved qualities of compassion, generosity, and even love toward him.” In his terminology this does not mean we abandon our right to restitution

But whether you can call this forgiveness I don’t know. It clearly isn’t what Jesus was talking about. And Fr.McManus says that this kind of forgiveness does not mean we act as if no offence has been committed, and that we retain the right to seek restitution

 

[geocajun]

winsome, good post.
Indeed the difference between forgiveness and justice must be understood. Forgiveness is letting go of the emotional anger toward someone. Some argue it is good for you, and I can certainly see that it may very well be true, but that isn't a theological argument at all. If someone killed another persons child for example, and then laughed about it, the victims would likely not feel the need to forgive the murderer just because they went to jail. They would still feel that anger, and rightfully so, until that murderer truly repented for what they had done. It is an unjust burden to tell that family they must forgive that person who isn't sorry for what they have done. If they choose to do it that is all well and good, but they have every right to hold on to the anger. I would counsel them to channel that anger into prayer for the murderers repentance. I'm no expert, but I think doing that would give them more of a sense of justice and peace of mind than would simply forgiving someone who isn't sorry for what they have done.

 

[winsome]

winsome, good post.
Indeed the difference between forgiveness and justice must be understood. Forgiveness is letting go of the emotional anger toward someone.

There is a difference in contexts. God does not need to forgive for his psychological health or to let go his emotional anger.

But in the case of sin, and God's forgiveness of it, we are talking judicial language. I think forgiveness in judicial terms is about pardoning from guilt.

 

[geocajun]

There is a difference in contexts. God does not need to forgive for his psychological health or to let go his emotional anger.

But in the case of sin, and God's forgiveness of it, we are talking judicial language. I think forgiveness in judicial terms is about pardoning from guilt.

Both our forgiveness and Gods forgiveness pardon guilt. Ask anyone who has asked someone for their forgiveness and been denied it and they will confirm that.
As for as God not letting go of anger, I think scripture disagrees with you on that. Granted it does not affect his psychological health, I think you completely missed my point that redirecting ones anger into prayer for the persons repentance is a valid way to heal and I think it is more consistent with God's example which is to give people prevenient grace when they are not repentant.

 

[winsome]

Both our forgiveness and Gods forgiveness pardon guilt. Ask anyone who has asked someone for their forgiveness and been denied it and they will confirm that.
As for as God not letting go of anger, I think scripture disagrees with you on that. Granted it does not affect his psychological health, I think you completely missed my point that redirecting ones anger into prayer for the persons repentance is a valid way to heal and I think it is more consistent with God's example which is to give people prevenient grace when they are not repentant.

I don’t think the definition I gave by Jim McManus was about pardoning guilt. According to him we still retain our right to take the offending party to court. But I take your point about praying for the offending as a better channel for our anger.

 

[AMDG]

Umm--is there a way to simply distract offending sister by changing the subject (how about a story on "detraction" and how it's considered part of "Thou shalt not bear false witness" Commandment or one on "rash judgment" and what the CCC says on it ). Meanwhile prayers for all concerned.

 

[geocajun]

I don’t think the definition I gave by Jim McManus was about pardoning guilt. According to him we still retain our right to take the offending party to court. But I take your point about praying for the offending as a better channel for our anger.

Pardoning guilt doesn't remove temporal punishment due for the sin. When God forgives us, we still must do penance for our sins. Much like the way I will still punish my children for what they have done wrong, though they are forgiven for it.

 

[Veritas]

I figure that the petition in the Our Father is sufficient for me: "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."

The way that it's phrased suggests that our own forgiveness sets the standard by which God will be forgiving towards us. While I know that I should be perfectly contrite for all of my sins, I also know that there are a fair number that I would not be terribly sorry for if I was honest with myself. So, my fear would be that if I expect perfect contrition from others, I might be in a heap of trouble myself when faced with my own sins at the final judgment.

This is kind of the way I see it too. As I've gotten older, I've tried to extend the same kind of compasssion and mercy toward those in my life who hurt or offend me, since I never know when my number is up.

Hey Sis..I am just curious . How is your mothers church responding to her situation...Has she received council? Has your sis said why she is taking this stand? Sorry to keep asking..I know family ties bind us, but how do you see the Lord in all this? Does your sis desire to see her restored according to Gal.6:1 ........Thanks ...Kim

I am just trying to see her side also..Maybe the spiritual issues override her physical love, in looking at it in the light of eternity..I just see her being put in a bad light in the context of the whole issue and the core problem..

I know, I know. Actually, my mom has not been actively a member of a parish for many years now. Much of that stems from my father's bible thumping. He kept telling her she was going to *%#@ from the time I was a teenager when he left the Catholic Church. He made Christianity and religion look uninviting. I think my mom just lost her desire for Church although she's still a spiritual person. She just doesn't wear it on her sleeve.

No, we're not. Having watched folks feel terrible guilt because they just couldn't forgive someone, and they honestly thought they were obligated to do it as a Christian, I feel it is very important to ensure folks understand what Christian teaching is, but also what it isn't. We are simply not required to forgive someone who isn't sorry, period. That isn't the teaching of the church at all, though many falsely assert that it is and I've seen it cause others serious pain.

Perhaps that guilt is there for a reason. Maybe they are suppose to forgive. Just because it's hard, doesn't mean we aren't to try. Further, people make the mistake of assuming that forgiveness is a one-time event....like some Protestants believe salvation is. However, as Catholics, we believe salvation is a life-long process. I have found that true forgiveness "from the heart" as Jesus talkes about, is also a life-long process. We must walk in the path of forgiveness on a daily basis. I've been terribly betrayed by business collegues and have had to learn this hard lesson. I'm not saying it's easy, just necessary. One thing I noticed is that when I evoke thoughts of forgiveness in my heart, I feel remarkably lighter, happier. When I do the opposite, I feel angry, depressed and hurt all over again. It's a vicious cycle and can eat away at a person like a cancer. It harms the unforgiver more than the unforgiven. How do we know when we've forgiven "from the heart"? When all thoughts and feelings of retribution have disappeared. My sister is just not there yet.

Important point: Forgiveness does not equal condoning the offense. I would strongly suggest ALL OF YOU to read a great book, by a Protestant pastor, R.T. Kendall, Total Forgiveness
http://www.amazon.com/Total-Forgive...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199135370&sr=1-1

I'm just giving you the straight dope. I realize it may seem harsh when first hearing it, but just keep in mind that it is exactly how God, who is perfect and perfectly just forgives.. We aren't required to forgive those who aren't sorry, and you won't be able to find a doctrine or scripture to state otherwise. What you will find is a bunch of misinformed people on the subject.

I believe that you are giving me your interpretation of what you think is the straight dope. And for that, I'd like to introduce you to my sister!

He’s pretty easy going really. I have bitten his head off numerous times and he never even gets mad at me, much less has a problem forgiving me. There are other people here on this board who I would not want as a family member, but geo’s not one of them.

Easy going? Hmmm. Hate to see him really ornery!

Veritas, does this issue with your sister really have that much to do with your parents splitting up as it does with the fact that your sister is a Bible believing Protestant fundamentalist?. Do you find yourself at odds with her often over this, even when it concerns other things?

No and yes. This issue is about my parents break-up and her treatment of our mother. But in the bigger picture, this is really only one example of how she responds to other things as well. On the one hand, I admire her for the effort and committment she has made to raising her kids the way she see's fit. On the other hand, there have been so many things that have come up that have caused problems. She does tend to be self-righteous and she married one like that too. BTW, except for my older brother and me, my other siblings are non-denominational fundys, too. And they are also at odds with this sister on this issue.

 

[HisKid1973]

Thanks Sis for your patience..Sad your dad didn't practice what he preached and gave your mom a loving example... What do the other fundie bros and sisters say. Do they understand the stand your sis takes. Thanks...peace to you..Kim

 

[geocajun]

This is a good article on forgiveness by Jimmy Akin, which was published in This Rock magazine: http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0309bt.asp