Are We Really Saved?

[wipeout]

If we do not believe without doubt, aren't we the same as unbelievers?
Faith produces action.
If we believed what Jesus said we would do as he commanded.

I have never met a person who obeys Jesus' commands.

By logical deduction then, I have never met anyone with faith in Jesus.

Hence, I Have never met anyone saved by that faith.

Jesus said that we shall know the truth(he is the truth) and the truth shall set us free. directly after saing that he says that anyone who sins is a slave to sin and that as long as he is a slave he has no permanent place in the family.

I've never met anyone free from sin.

In 1 John it says anyone who is born of God overcomes the world, and that the victory that overcomes the world is their faith.
Jesus said that for someone to see the kingdom of god he must be born again.

If we do not beleive without a doubt(have faith), we are not born of god(born again), and aren't saved.

I've been thinking that maybe we should humble ourselves with mourning, prayer, and fasting in order to recieve God's grace, which is the faith we so earnestly covet. As it is written "God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble." "You have been saved by grace through faith - and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."

I admit that I also need to do this. May God have mercy.

Or maybe this is just stupid logic.

 

[FOMWatts<><]

It isn't stupid logic, and actually it's quite a normal thought of Christians, but it is not a real concern that we should have.

2 Corinthians 12:

9But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. 10That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Romans 7:

4So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5For when we were controlled by the sinful nature,[1] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Struggling With Sin

7What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."[2] 8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.
11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[3] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Even Paul struggled with sin and he didn't even know why! We are goign to struggle wih sin as long as we are in the flesh, but since we died with Christ then we are no longer under the law, but under Christ.

You may find your problem in your definition of faith. Faith is also something given to us by God...

Romans 12:3

For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

Faith is a belief in something we can't see, not proof of what we believe. It is a personal thing, as is salvation. I do not question my salvation when I sin, I rejoice in His forgiveness, because WHEN I AM WEAK THEN I AM STRONG! Because of Him of course!

Blessings,

FOMWatts<><

 

[wipeout]

Everyone loves quoting Romans chapter 7.

Read Romans chapter 8.
It states that "the law of the spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

If you live in christ you do not go on sinning.
BECAUSE CHRIST DOES NOT SIN!!! IN HIM IS NO SIN!!!

 

[wipeout]

Also REALLY study what 1st John says of those born of God

 

[FOMWatts<><]

You are veyr correct, IN Christ there is no sin. Does being in Christ mean that we will no longer sin? NOPE. It mean's that we are dead to sin, because we died with Christ and are raised in Christ. Having conquered death we are no longer liable to sin or its consequences (which happen to be death). When we are believers, we are seen clean by God thorugh our faiht in Jesus, God's sacrifice. So though you are right in what you said in your posts, but I think you are getting the wrong idea about what it means...it doesn't mean that we will no longer sin, because even Paul talked about his continuous struggle with sin, it DOES mean, however, that when we do sin God is just and able to forgive us of our sins if we confess them. He doesn't see our sins when we are IN Christ.

Blessings,

FOMWatts<><

 

[eldermike]

Amen!

The wages of sin - death.
All have sinned.

To connect continual sin to salvation is illogical, the first sin is death.

 

[endure]

wipeout,
man im with ya. christians are not to be sinning, and if we do, then we contradict all that the bible clearly says about christians.

yet, the bible does not teach that once a person is saved that he cant sin anymore or he wont.

in galations 5 the bible says there is an on going struggle inside us, between our spirits and our flesh. and if the flesh has place, that it will keep us from doing as we should.
this is what is happening with many christians.
it is not the model life that christians are supposed to live, by no means. but it does happen.

faith is not something that we have much of automacticly or permamently. i agree that true faith will cause good works.
yet our faith can rise and fall, and we must grow in faith everyday in order to finish the work.
we must read the word and grow in faith, we must fast and throw off the yoke of the flesh so that our spirit has the liberty to produce the faith it wants to so we can live the lifes we are called to.

there is more working here than whether or not a person ever really got saved or not.
i do agree that a person who is bound in sin, and has not repented and changed his ways is not saved.
but even a saved man can give provision to his flesh.
and the flesh will hinder our spirits.
and the flesh will hinder faith.

and there is more going on then just the flesh, but the point is, we are in a battle, an enemy who has been training himself for thousands of years compared your 75 years has come to destroy us, and he knows how to doit, we have to be skilled, and wise, and prepared, we can be deceived, tricked, overpowered, and cut down. it is a fight that must be won and that is why we have the armor of God and we are exhorted to take it up. it is not simply a decision that is guaranteed to determine the rest of your life and fate.

thats why we must be taught how to hold ourselves as the vessel of sanctification and holiness as paul said in 1 thess 4.

just becuase a person who claims Jesus, is in sin, does not mean they were never saved it means they were overcame and defeated by the adversary, there is more to this than simply trusting in jesus, one must be skillful and trained in his fight, so he can run and win.

 

[wipeout]

If we are so dead to sin why do we still live in it???

Jesus said "A tree is recognized by it's fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit....Any tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."

If you have this saving faith, PROVE IT.
If you aren't obeying Jesus's commands, you obviously don't believe Him.

 

[eldermike]

I don't live in sin, I don't know why any Christian would? I am not perfect but I don't live to sin or to ignore my convictions. However, it has not one thing to do with being saved. It's a highly important issue for being useful to God while He keeps me here on the earth.
I am not alive because I do not seek to sin, I am alive because I am forgiven.

 

[FOMWatts<><]

Today at 07:59 AM wipeout said this in Post #8 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=677090#post677090)

If we are so dead to sin why do we still live in it???

Jesus said "A tree is recognized by it's fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit....Any tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."

If you have this saving faith, PROVE IT.
If you aren't obeying Jesus's commands, you obviously don't believe Him.

Why do we still live in it? Because we are men of flesh, and we are going to mess things up. Even though people do not seem to like Paul's description of living in sin, it is so accurate that it can't be ignored. We do what we do not want to do, DON'T WE? I DO! And what I do want to do I do not do!(most of the time) WHY??? Paul even asks himself this question and then he answers it...(c7v14) "For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin." WE ARE MAN! God KNOWS we are going to fail if we do not dwell in Him. This is inevitable , it is the ENTIRE reason HE sent Christ, because we are weak. Evene after we discover our faith in Christ we are still going to fall and sin, and though we should turn from that sin, we are just going to find another one to fall in to.

IT is the sin that lives in our flesh that causes us to sin, it is not our souls that cause us to sin, but the sin that lives in our earthly tent, THE BODY! NOTHING good dwells in the flesh!

Paul closes this topic with a beautiful rhetorical question...

"Romans 7
24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin."

Paul rejoices because God has provided his way out. JESUS CHRIST.

Blessings,

FOMWatts<><

 

[FOMWatts<><]

Today at 08:37 AM eldermike said this in Post #9 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=677145#post677145)

I don't live in sin, I don't know why any Christian would? I am not perfect but I don't live to sin or to ignore my convictions. However, it has not one thing to do with being saved. It's a highly important issue for being useful to God while He keeps me here on the earth.
I am not alive because I do not seek to sin, I am alive because I am forgiven.

AMEN!!! When you become a Christian your salvation is secured! It is not going to be taken away from you, IN FACT, if you are truly saved then nothing CAN take it away from you (John 10:29). After salvation sin then becomes the issue of fruitfulness for God's glorification and being in His will. You can be saved and still mess up, but thank God for the Holy Spirit that has to knock us on the head sometimes to remind us what we are here for.

FOMWatts<><

 

[wipeout]

Come on!!! Don't give me any of that Romans chapter 7.

READ ROMANS 8!!!!!

You can't use Romans ch. 7 as an excuse!!!

 

[wipeout]

And also: In order to lose salvation(or not lose it), someone has to RECIEVE it. And the salvation we recieve BEARS FRUIT.

If you say you're saved.... PROVE IT.
"Faith without deeds is dead"

 

[eldermike]

Who has faith without deeds? I don't know anyone like that. I must lead a sheltered life.

 

[wipeout]

If you don't obey Jesus's commands, you have no faith in him.
If you have no faith in him, how can you be saved?

Faith has NO doubt, because doubt is unbelief.

You can't believe and unbelieve at the same time... They contradict each other.

 

[calvinist]

I'm sorry, but as a Christian whose faith stumbles from time to time, I find myself relying on GOD'S INFINITE GRACE!!! AMEN!!! It's just like the song says, "He's still working on me..." i must have missed that part in the bible that says christians will have strong faith all the time, i'll have to look for it.

 

[FOMWatts<><]

Yesterday at 09:01 PM wipeout said this in Post #15 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=680630#post680630)

If you don't obey Jesus's commands, you have no faith in him.
If you have no faith in him, how can you be saved?

Faith has NO doubt, because doubt is unbelief.

You can't believe and unbelieve at the same time... They contradict each other.

Are you saying you do not sin anymore?

A Christian WILL obey Jesus's command. HIS ONLY COMMAND is to put Him first and to love one another as HE loves us. Love fulfills all He commands us to do, and the love HE has is an unconditional love. So according to that I am keeping His commands.

Jesus came to fulfill the law, because it was obvious then that we were not capable of keeping all of the laws, AND WE STILL AREN'T!

I'm not using ANY scripture as an excuse, but I am using it to develop my beliefs. You can't use scripture to counter scripture because then we are getting down to interpretation, and that my friend involves much spiritual discernment, which we all use when we read our Bible's.

You are right...you can't believe and unbelieve at the time. :The Christian life is nto about that, it is about dwelling or HANGING OUT with God. It is about being in the spirit. Let me promise ytou one thing, while you are in the flesh you can't dwell in the spirit all the time, the do contradict each other. THe WORLD we live in contradicts what God wants for us, but we live in it do we not?

The Christian life makes us aliens in a world in which we do not belong, but we DO have a prupose in. That purpose is to bring people to Christ. How do you bring people to Christ? You help them acknowledge that they are sinners, and that they need a Savior. Do we ever teach them that you are not going to sin anymore once you become a Christian? HECK NO! Who is even going to try? I wouldn't! We are made clean through HIS BLOOD. Once you have faith in HIS BLOOD, you are SAVED, DONE DEAL! There are things to work on, and a Gospel to preach, but when you die you are heaven bound because Jesus' Blood covers all the sins of those that believe in its saving power. I just do not see what is so hard to understand about this.

Blessings,

FOMWatts<><

 

[eldermike]

Wipeout,

Just curious, what denomination are you?

Blessings

 

[wipeout]

I'm Charismatic(Pentecostal)

Anyways... I give up.
If you all want to keep living in the flesh go ahead.
Sow and reap.

I think I'm going to try the "new way of the Spirit."

READ John ch. 13:47-48 Then read EVERYTHING Jesus says.

 

[undead1]

28th February 2003 at 02:28 PM FOMWatts<>< said this in Post #17 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=681422#post681422)

......We are made clean through HIS BLOOD. Once you have faith in HIS BLOOD, you are SAVED, DONE DEAL! There are things to work on, and a Gospel to preach, but when you die you are heaven bound because Jesus' Blood covers all the sins of those that believe in its saving power. I just do not see what is so hard to understand about this.

What's hard to understand is the following:

You have an unbeliever. He hears the gospel. He repents. He attends a church. He becomes subjected to doctrinal error, and the persons about him are worldly. He thinks he has repented enough. He sees no need to further repent, even though his life is in many aspects, worldly, impure, and his doctrine, corrupt.

What is his position? Because a lot of people are in this position.

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"Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. "