twin1954
Baptist by the Bible
Of course there is a relationship between God and His creation. For the reprobate it is one of Creator and sovereign Lord over His creatures. Responsibility has nothing to do with His control but with that relationship. We are responsible because He made us and had the right to demand whatever He wants without consideration of ability to obey.StephanieSomer...twin1954...show me how control is not inversely proportional to a relationship. Show me how total responsibility for election would not by the same logic apply to total responsibility for reprobation.
I have seen no other theories advanced than what I have noted above. Skala and StephanieSomer assert that "it's a mystery" is a viable answer. Twin1954 denies that it's a mystery, denies will within a will, yet asserts both sovereignty and man's will at the same time without an explanation.
I'm not trying to foment anger here. I'm just seeing a huge gap between where God's sovereignty is claimed to be at synapse-level, total control for both the elect and reprobate, and where total responsibility in man is claimed despite that level of control. StephanieSomer, you CANNOT say that it is arrogant to want to understand God's ways. Theology is the stuff of councils and catechisms and synods and creeds and confessions and books and articles and white papers throughout the history of the church, that defines who we are as Christians today. It's the reason we are here on this forum.
As to how that relationship extends to reprobation He has the right to do what He will with His own. The first consideration is that He is under no obligation to save any. With that in mind we are left with the fact that He does choose to save whom He will and leave the rest in the depravity and just result of sin. He does not have to actively choose them to reprobation nor does He have to bear the responsibility for their damnation.
While He did purpose, for the glory of His name, the Fall and Adam's failure to continue in uprightness He in no way made Adam sin and plunge us all into the just damnation of our souls. His promise to Adam that when he sinned (it can very well be read that when He said in the day that you eat you shall surely die is the same as saying when you do because you are going to) death would be the result makes Adam responsible for his failure. Paul tells us that Adam was not deceived and he wasn't. Neither Satan nor Eve deceived Adam. He sinned with his eyes wide open and in full understanding that he was being disobedient to God. I assume, which I try to not do often when it comes to the Scriptures, that Adam desired the woman more than he desired God. He knew that she must die and he would die with her.
God's control over the Fall in no way implies that He was complicit in it. He set the circumstances and allowed the influences of Satan and Adam's love for the women but He didn't push Adam into sin. He simply saw to it that His purpose to glorify Himself in mercy to chosen sinners came about.
Consider that the angels have no concept of mercy except as they see it in the church, Eph. 3:10-11. The angels that fell are damned forever with no hope of mercy. The angels that God kept in purity need no mercy but both can only know what mercy is through the mercy of God to chosen sinners by Jesus Christ. The manifold wisdom of God is put on display by His sovereign control and eventual full accomplishment of His purpose. God is a God of purpose. Everything He does He does on purpose.
I added quite a bit to this post when I got home because I originally did it from my phone which was dying at the time.
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