Are we of the same faith?

[minasoliman]

http://www.christianforums.com/t2871842

I've always viewed this as one of my favorite threads. I wish this would be a sticky for "thought-provoking Christian concepts."

For us Orthodox, we know that Protestants and Catholics are not of the same doctrinal faith with us. Thus, we know they are not of the Church.

Many take this as a harsh statement, but we have to maintain reality and not cause Christ's body to be full of contradictions and disagreements.

With love, especially to Protestants (and Messianic Jews) who find that comment as "unChristian," we submit that this is a "Christian must," and that if one is to uphold Christ's promise that the "gates of Hades shall not prevail against the rock of the Church," one has to be consistent in accepting one form of Christianity as true so as not to cause this Christly statement to be in danger. Even the Church fathers didn't consider schismatics or heretics to be considered called "Christian."

Just as Christianity stands against New Agism to put herself in opposition with other religions, so the Orthodox Church must stand against "Christian Pluralism/New Agism/heretical ecumenism" who put all churches that differ in faith as "One Church." Such a belief would crumble the Church of Christ and insult her faith, who Christ entrusted to the members of the Church. The Church is like the Ark of Noah. It wasn't just those who hated God that drowned, but even those who loved God, but did not accept Noah's "evangelism" to enter the Ark (the Church).

God bless.

Mina

 

[minasoliman]

I'm going to bump this one up due to a recent message on the thread concerning the "inter-denominational" marriages and the question between politically correct Christianity and Orthodox Christianity.

I want to reiterate that such will prevent some sort of "pluralistic" belief among churches. Those who believe unity on pretenses that "all we need is Jesus" while neglecting those beliefs that happen to strongly make us believe that they are essential parts of the faith only wish for a troubling and weak unity, not a strong and consistent one.

God bless.

Mina

 

[CopticPhalanx]

good post Mina

 

[arunma]

I'm going to bump this one up due to a recent message on the thread concerning the "inter-denominational" marriages and the question between politically correct Christianity and Orthodox Christianity.

I want to reiterate that such will prevent some sort of "pluralistic" belief among churches. Those who believe unity on pretenses that "all we need is Jesus" while neglecting those beliefs that happen to strongly make us believe that they are essential parts of the faith only wish for a troubling and weak unity, not a strong and consistent one.

God bless.

Mina

Interesting thread. I think I can safely say that your views on Protestants would include evangelicals such as myself. I am not in any way offended by your belief concerning Christians of other churches; in fact I appreciate that you strive to maintain the truth of the Gospel. Nonetheless, I will continue to consider Oriental Orthodox to be fellow Christians.

I do, however, come with a couple of questions. You said that Protestants and Catholics are outside of the church. On that basis, would you say that we are not under the grace of God, and that we will not be saved on the last day (again, I won't be offended if you say yes)? I am also interested in learning about your position on non-Christian religions. Do you believe, as we evangelicals do, that salvation is not possible for non-Christians? If not, then how would you view Catholics and Protestants in relation to, say, pagans?

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

I do, however, come with a couple of questions. You said that Protestants and Catholics are outside of the church. On that basis, would you say that we are not under the grace of God, and that we will not be saved on the last day (again, I won't be offended if you say yes)? I am also interested in learning about your position on non-Christian religions. Do you believe, as we evangelicals do, that salvation is not possible for non-Christians? If not, then how would you view Catholics and Protestants in relation to, say, pagans?

Only God knows who is saved, and who is not. The Eastern Orthodox have a saying, that is relevant to the Oriental Orthodox as well:

"We know where the church is. We do not know where the church is not."

Peace.

 

[copticorthodoxy]

Only God knows who is saved, and who is not. The Eastern Orthodox have a saying, that is relevant to the Oriental Orthodox as well:

"We know where the church is. We do not know where the church is not."

Peace.

The Church is only one , catholic , holy and Apostolic

 

[arunma]

Only God knows who is saved, and who is not. The Eastern Orthodox have a saying, that is relevant to the Oriental Orthodox as well:

"We know where the church is. We do not know where the church is not."

Peace.

I am a bit confused. In the first post, Mina stated, "Thus, we know they [Catholics and Protestants] are not of the Church." If such a strong statement can be made of those who profess Christ, then my first guess would be that at least as strong a statement could be made of Jews and Muslims who deny the deity of Christ, of Hindus who worship idols, and of all others who practice false religions. Have I misunderstood the original post?

I hope that my questions do not sound argumentative, and if they do, then please forgive this. But I am rather unfamiliar with Oriental Orthodoxy, and so perhaps I do not understand the language with which you communicate your doctrines.

 

[zhilan]

Good thread. I think trying to be overly PC just confuses people. We love our fellow Christians but to pretend we are the same when we're not is not helping anyone.

 

[Knowledge3]

The one holy catholic and apostolic church has Apostolic roots.

 

[Yeznik]

The one holy catholic and apostolic church has Apostolic roots.

Agreed.

 

[copticorthodoxy]

The one holy catholic and apostolic church has Apostolic roots.

Hail to St. Mark the Apostle Our Apostle , Bishop and Father

 

[CopticPhalanx]

I think the main importance of the Orthodox churches in general as opposed to say Catholic or Protestant is we are trying to preserve cultural practises while trying to keep the solid form of the religion as it was intended origionaly. This isn't about who is more Christian or who gets into heaven at all than someone else because of what denomination they fall into. I am a Christian but I don't believe in the exclusion of Christianity. I don't beleive only Christians go to heaven. Why would God intend for so many differant cultural practises in the world whether religious or secular? I think if you are good by your actions and intentions then God is merciful.
The bible is much much more about your actions and intentions than it is what you beleive in (but atheists probably go straight to hell by default just by denying his existance). You can believe in Jesus all you want, but if your actions and intentions are evil well then you burn for it.
It is very clear in the bible that God favors the sincere.

 

[peterfarrington]

I think the main importance of the Orthodox churches in general as opposed to say Catholic or Protestant is we are trying to preserve cultural practises while trying to keep the solid form of the religion as it was intended origionaly. This isn't about who is more Christian or who gets into heaven at all than someone else because of what denomination they fall into. I am a Christian but I don't believe in the exclusion of Christianity. I don't beleive only Christians go to heaven. Why would God intend for so many differant cultural practises in the world whether religious or secular? I think if you are good by your actions and intentions then God is merciful.
The bible is much much more about your actions and intentions than it is what you beleive in (but atheists probably go straight to hell by default just by denying his existance). You can believe in Jesus all you want, but if your actions and intentions are evil well then you burn for it.
It is very clear in the bible that God favors the sincere.

Dear CP

The Jewish leaders who had Jesus crucified were sincere, but they were also condemned. I am sure that Hitler and Stalin were sincere.

Where does the Bible say that God favours the sincere? I can't find anywhere. He favours the repentant and those who sorrow for their sins.

Why did Jesus Christ say 'I am the Way...no one comes to the Father but by me' if all that is required is sincerity?

Peter

 

[a_ntv]

For us Orthodox, we know that Protestants and Catholics are not of the same doctrinal faith with us. Thus, we know they are not of the Church.

In a certain sense I agree, but this your affirmation could be better defined, by defining what you means with 'Church' (particular/universal/apostolic/sacramental/one?).

Why dont you start a thread in a forum where is possible a nice debate?

 

[minasoliman]

On that basis, would you say that we are not under the grace of God, and that we will not be saved on the last day (again, I won't be offended if you say yes)? I am also interested in learning about your position on non-Christian religions. Do you believe, as we evangelicals do, that salvation is not possible for non-Christians? If not, then how would you view Catholics and Protestants in relation to, say, pagans?

Here's what I think. If one can really find the direct path to salvation, wouldn't you think one should seek it?

This is how I feel about Orthodoxy. Now, I'm not saying that those outside the Orthodox Church are going to hell (I don't even judge atheists for that matter) (neither do I say all Orthodox Christians are going to heaven for that matter). What I am saying is that I have found the Ark of Noah, and I truly believe that this Ark which contains the correct faith that will protect me from the floods of the world, so to speak.

Now, while I wish not to judge a person's salvation, yet I am given a responsibility to discern what is right and what is wrong, to discern the path to salvation and the shady way (after all, we as saints shall even judge angels). In such a shady way, people can get lost, and this is evident in how Protestantism evolved into many sects, one sect removing sacraments, one sect removing liturgy, one sect removing the necessity and efficacy of baptism into their theology. Such things that are NECESSARY to the faith of Orthodoxy are things that I find troublesome in other churches, especially those who lost the flavor of what the ancient united Church has done all Her life.

At the same time, my tradition of Orthodoxy have resisted Petrine/Papal Supremacy ever since the fifth century! We have also resisted the Immaculate Conception as one which troubles the very essence of salvation. These things too, my Church finds NECESSARY in rejecting as part of the faith. The way we define the word "petra" as necessary to the Church is also different, and is central to understand proper ecclesiastics.

Therefore, what is the Church? The Church is the mystical Body of Christ that agrees in one faith, one doctrine, one love. I may agree somewhat that there is a mystical sense where we do not know where the Church isn't, but I still stand strongly by the position of necessity of unity in faith and doctrine.

Dear a_ntv,

The thread I provided is essential to understanding "What is the Church?" I rarely check other threads except TAW. But if there's an interesting debate starting, let us know.

There is a post I made to let you know my feelings, that I do not mean to offend, but to make clear what the position of my Church is, and what I as a true Orthodox Christian should feel:

If an atheist visits our church, should I allow him to eat the body and blood of Christ even if he clearly does not want to believe? We don't force anyone to the Truth. The Truth is clear before your eyes. To mend something is to HIDE the Truth from people, or to exclude certain peoples and nations out as much as possible as Israel and Judah did. But we Orthodox do not hide the Truth. We make it open. We invite people to Church if they're interested. If people truly believe the Truth of Orthodoxy, they will respect the requirements to get in, i.e. baptism, as well as the practices and sacramental lives. The fact that I am debating with you shows not how much I hate you, but how much I love you. I wish to show you my views. It would be selfish and foolish of me if I had not told you what the Orthodox Church believes and kept it from you, or deceptive of me if I withheld certain necessary beliefs or lied to you. It is part of my duties as a Reader in my church, to evangelize and to spread the Truth.

May I add that one thing I love is find what unites us and I love ecumenical discussions. But we cannot forget or ignore what divides us. It's beautiful to share common knowledge. If we stand before a non-Christian, a fellow Protestant and I seem to be of one mind in calling for the necessity of Christ. A fellow Catholic and I are of one mind when we mention Church history and sacraments and beautiful liturgies. But we also must find the problem of the rift if we truly seek to unite. The only dialogue I have ever found that really cared about the rift was the EO/OO dialogues. If any ecumenist (true ecumenist) really wanted to see a good example of true dialogue, it is these debates. Unlike what I hear about the WCC and some Catholic agreements, there is no minimal agreement in faith, but even things that extend beyond Christology is necessary to reveal the Oneness of the Orthodox Church.

God bless and forgive me for any offences.

Mina

 

[Komnenos]

Hmm. Do you Consider Eastern Orthodox outside of the church? Or by "Orthodox" meaning oriental and Eastern?

 

[JoshuaCh1v9]

Different fields, same farmer.

The Gospel oif Christ is not about being right.
The Gospel of Christ is about being in Relationship.

 

[peterfarrington]

Hi Andy

There is a need to make sure that it is genuine and sound seed which the farmer is planting. That's not to dispute your main point, but even there we need to be in a 'right relationship'.

Orthodoxy preserves the means of being in that 'right relationship', by providing the spiritual locus where the life in Christ can properly and wholeheartedly be worked out.

There is only one field, but maybe we work for the same farmer? Maybe we have things to learn of Him from each other? All truth is of God. All love is of God. All life and true service is of God.

Peter

 

[Yeznik]

Here's what I think. If one can really find the direct path to salvation, wouldn't you think one should seek it?

This is how I feel about Orthodoxy. Now, I'm not saying that those outside the Orthodox Church are going to hell (I don't even judge atheists for that matter) (neither do I say all Orthodox Christians are going to heaven for that matter). What I am saying is that I have found the Ark of Noah, and I truly believe that this Ark which contains the correct faith that will protect me from the floods of the world, so to speak.

Now, while I wish not to judge a person's salvation, yet I am given a responsibility to discern what is right and what is wrong, to discern the path to salvation and the shady way (after all, we as saints shall even judge angels). In such a shady way, people can get lost, and this is evident in how Protestantism evolved into many sects, one sect removing sacraments, one sect removing liturgy, one sect removing the necessity and efficacy of baptism into their theology. Such things that are NECESSARY to the faith of Orthodoxy are things that I find troublesome in other churches, especially those who lost the flavor of what the ancient united Church has done all Her life.

At the same time, my tradition of Orthodoxy have resisted Petrine/Papal Supremacy ever since the fifth century! We have also resisted the Immaculate Conception as one which troubles the very essence of salvation. These things too, my Church finds NECESSARY in rejecting as part of the faith. The way we define the word "petra" as necessary to the Church is also different, and is central to understand proper ecclesiastics.

Therefore, what is the Church? The Church is the mystical Body of Christ that agrees in one faith, one doctrine, one love. I may agree somewhat that there is a mystical sense where we do not know where the Church isn't, but I still stand strongly by the position of necessity of unity in faith and doctrine.

Dear a_ntv,

The thread I provided is essential to understanding "What is the Church?" I rarely check other threads except TAW. But if there's an interesting debate starting, let us know.

There is a post I made to let you know my feelings, that I do not mean to offend, but to make clear what the position of my Church is, and what I as a true Orthodox Christian should feel:



May I add that one thing I love is find what unites us and I love ecumenical discussions. But we cannot forget or ignore what divides us. It's beautiful to share common knowledge. If we stand before a non-Christian, a fellow Protestant and I seem to be of one mind in calling for the necessity of Christ. A fellow Catholic and I are of one mind when we mention Church history and sacraments and beautiful liturgies. But we also must find the problem of the rift if we truly seek to unite. The only dialogue I have ever found that really cared about the rift was the EO/OO dialogues. If any ecumenist (true ecumenist) really wanted to see a good example of true dialogue, it is these debates. Unlike what I hear about the WCC and some Catholic agreements, there is no minimal agreement in faith, but even things that extend beyond Christology is necessary to reveal the Oneness of the Orthodox Church.

God bless and forgive me for any offences.

Mina

Hi Mina,

I regards to the Byzantine Churches and the Roman Catholic Church. The Byzantine Churches have committed many atrocities to the Armenians under the flag of “orthodoxy”. The Armenians were the second largest civilization inside the Byzantine Empire as well as Armenian being the second most common language and it is well documented by Armenian historians of the Byzantine era of what happened to the Armenians. You ever wondered why the second largest civilization in Byzantium is hardly ever mentioned in history books.

Whenever a attack is made on the orthodox faith I protect it because EO and OO have more commonalities then any other Church and with some people in this forum reciprocate the apology for OO churches when orthodoxy is attacked.

But, again from my person view, the head of the Roman Catholic Church as come to Armenia and has apologized for what separated the 2 Churches, he has been inside Holy Etchmiadzin and prayed with the Armenian Catholicos. He has been to Genocide monument and stated the Armenians Christians were persecuted for the true faith, and that indeed what happened to the Armenians is Genocide.

Where is the apology form the Byzantine Church for the atrocities they committed against the Armenians and the other orthodox churches? When was the last time a Byzantine orthodox priest has entered into an OO to pray with his brother let alone a bishop?

I remember an archbishop telling me story sometime last year, that he was talking to and Byzantine Orthodox priest regarding the separation between the Armenian Orthodox Church and the archbishop suggested that they should pray about situation, the response from the Byzantine was, I can pray for you, but I cannot pray with you.

From my experience the RCC have the right attitude and approach, compared to the Byzantine Orthodox Church.

 

[peterfarrington]

You know, despite the fact that I have spent much of my time since I became Orthodox 12 years ago working to help EO understand our position, in fact I am much more hopeful about the possibility of working with Roman Catholics.

I cannot generalise about EO, because there are many who are positive, but they do seem less than those who are negative or ignorant.

Just a couple of months ago I was at a Roman Catholic-OO conference and it was wonderfully refreshing to be with people who didn't keep calling me a monophysite heretic! I think we should do more to develop the friendships with the RC.

Peter