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Are we just trying to understand the inconceivable?

JohnB445

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Some things are mysteries that we may not fully understand or know.

The Arminianism vs Calvinism thing.

God can at the same time give us free will, along with knowing in the end what we are going to do with it and where we will end up. I don't think God can be surprised or takes in knowledge passively. Since he is eternal, he also exists outside of time.

Could we be predestined? Maybe, who knows. What's the benefit of trying to understand God's decree anyways?

Although its interesting to see both theological views, does it produce any fruit is it worth going into?

A quote I found "I sometimes think it would be more profitable to just read the Bible and thank the Lord Jesus for saving us than try to figure it all out."
"Such a faith is preferable. People who try to be overly intellectual about the Bible sacrifice the mystery of the union with God to the reaches of their intellect."
 
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bcbsr

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Some things are mysteries that we may not fully understand or know.

The Arminianism vs Calvinism thing.

God can at the same time give us free will, along with knowing in the end what we are going to do with it
Actually Calvinism denies that election is based on God's foreknowledge of the choices we make out of our free will. So your statement doesn't resolve the differences. There are simply irreconcilable differences between Arminianism and Calvinism, and not only regarding election.
 
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Johnny4ChristJesus

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Some things are mysteries that we may not fully understand or know.

The Arminianism vs Calvinism thing.

God can at the same time give us free will, along with knowing in the end what we are going to do with it and where we will end up. I don't think God can be surprised or takes in knowledge passively. Since he is eternal, he also exists outside of time.

Could we be predestined? Maybe, who knows. What's the benefit of trying to understand God's decree anyways?

Although its interesting to see both theological views, does it produce any fruit is it worth going into?

A quote I found "I sometimes think it would be more profitable to just read the Bible and thank the Lord Jesus for saving us than try to figure it all out."
"Such a faith is preferable. People who try to be overly intellectual about the Bible sacrifice the mystery of the union with God to the reaches of their intellect."

Do you think God doesn't want us to strive to understand? If you were in a relationship with someone, would you rather they decided you were too hard to really understand (so didn't even try) OR that they cared enough about you to really try to get to know you on a deep level--even if really understanding how you functioned was beyond their ability? For me, I prefer the one who cares enough about me that they try. I treat God the way I would want to be treated if the roles were reversed. Certainly, being thankful, praising, etc, are all part of the walk with God; but not in exclusion of trying to move deeper in understanding.
 
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fhansen

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Some things are mysteries that we may not fully understand or know.

The Arminianism vs Calvinism thing.

God can at the same time give us free will, along with knowing in the end what we are going to do with it and where we will end up. I don't think God can be surprised or takes in knowledge passively. Since he is eternal, he also exists outside of time.

Could we be predestined? Maybe, who knows. What's the benefit of trying to understand God's decree anyways?

Although its interesting to see both theological views, does it produce any fruit is it worth going into?

A quote I found "I sometimes think it would be more profitable to just read the Bible and thank the Lord Jesus for saving us than try to figure it all out."
"Such a faith is preferable. People who try to be overly intellectual about the Bible sacrifice the mystery of the union with God to the reaches of their intellect."
The basic question gets down to whether or not man is a morally accountable being, or just some dull irresponsible beast instead. Is "unsaved" man not responsible for his actions, his sin? Or for that matter, do his Good Samaritan acts, his acts of love/self-sacrifice, really mean nothing? Compared to a believer who does nothing for others, perhaps?
 
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RDKirk

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Actually Calvinism denies that election is based on God's foreknowledge of the choices we make out of our free will. So your statement doesn't resolve the differences. There are simply irreconcilable differences between Arminianism and Calvinism, and not only regarding election.

That's what he said.
 
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RDKirk

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Do you think God doesn't want us to strive to understand? If you were in a relationship with someone, would you rather they decided you were too hard to really understand (so didn't even try) OR that they cared enough about you to really try to get to know you on a deep level--even if really understanding how you functioned was beyond their ability? For me, I prefer the one who cares enough about me that they try.

I think what God wants from us is obedience. With regard to "understanding:"

And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

I treat God the way I would want to be treated if the roles were reversed.

That statement is bizarrely misguided on two or three levels.

What God wants us to do is what He commands.

If you love me, obey my commands.

Certainly, being thankful, praising, etc, are all part of the walk with God; but not in exclusion of trying to move deeper in understanding.

Nowhere in there did you mention doing what the Lord commanded us to do. "Understanding" is worthless if it does not lead to doing.
 
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RDKirk

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The basic question gets down to whether or not man is a morally accountable being, or just some dull irresponsible beast instead. Is "unsaved" man not responsible for his actions, his sin? Or for that matter, do his Good Samaritan acts, his acts of love/self-sacrifice, really mean nothing? Compared to a believer who does nothing for others, perhaps?

Not really relevant. If you know what God is telling you to do, it's not necessary to rationalize it in your own head. Just do it.

If you need to rationalize it to yourself before you obey, that's not really obedience at all, that's consent.
 
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fhansen

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Not really relevant. If you know what God is telling you to do, it's not necessary to rationalize it in your own head. Just do it.

If you need to rationalize it to yourself before you obey, that's not really obedience at all, that's consent.
It's better to know you're supposed to do it, to have the basic theology straight on God's will; that's what our Christian faith is meant to do, rather than have a question in our minds whether or not our decision to follow, to obey, ultimately means anything or not. For myself all this questioning about man's free will is nonsense. We have the choice: do it!
 
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Tutorman

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A quote I found "I sometimes think it would be more profitable to just read the Bible and thank the Lord Jesus for saving us than try to figure it all out."

There is the problem, man read the Bible away from the Church and decides silly things for themselves
 
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RDKirk

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It's better to know you're supposed to do it, to have the basic theology straight on God's will; that's what our Christian faith is meant to do, rather than have a question in our minds whether or not our decision to follow, to obey, ultimately means anything or not. For myself all this questioning about man's free will is nonsense. We have the choice: do it!

These divisive debates are not usually about knowing "what," they're usually about knowing "why."

It's not necessary to know "why" if you can be sure you know "what." And we should concentrate on doing as much "what" as we know at any given moment.
 
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Johnny4ChristJesus

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I think what God wants from us is obedience. With regard to "understanding:"

And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.



That statement is bizarrely misguided on two or three levels.

What God wants us to do is what He commands.

If you love me, obey my commands.



Nowhere in there did you mention doing what the Lord commanded us to do. "Understanding" is worthless if it does not lead to doing.

I love the Scriptures, and appreciate your opinion, but I think you are wrongly applying those Scriptures.

(1) I agree obedience is imperative. But, that doesn't negate understanding. The OP, as I re-read it had nothing to do with whether or not we are to be obedient to God, instead, it was questioning whether there was benefit in trying to understand things (to the best of our ability) or not invest time in understanding. Whether one believes in our free will having any importance or not CAN HAVE A BIG IMPACT on how we responds to what Jesus tells us to do.

(2) The verse you used to support that Jesus didn't care about understanding has nothing to do with that, it has everything to do with grown adults arguing about who is better. Read the context around the verse. Matthew 18:1-6. A similar incident is reported in Mark 9:33-42. In both scenarios, He seemed more concerned about not offending one of His own.

(3) In contrast to your suggested use of that Scripture about little children, Jesus said:
(a) To Nicodemus: "Are you a teacher of Israel, and know not these things? Verily, verily, I say to you, We speak what We do know, and testify that We have seen; and you receive not our witness. If I have told you earthly things and you believe not, how shall you believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?" (John 3:10-12) Jesus appears to be expecting Nicodemus to know/understand. His earnest question is met with a charge of disbelief.
(b) To His disciples: In Mar 4, after telling the parable of the Sower and the seed: "Then Jesus said, 'Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.' When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. He told them, 'The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that, they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven! Then Jesus said to them, “Don’t you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable? (Mar 4:9-13)
(c) To His disciples: "Do you still not understand..." (Mar 8:14-21, Matt 16:5-12)
(d) I would also argue that God cares more about us trusting Him than that we understand everything perfectly. But, that is not the same as saying that He doesn't want us to even try to understand. What exactly is "renewing the mind"? (Romans 12:2)

(4) I understand you feel I'm off on applying Luke 6:31/Matt 7:12 to my treatment of God. I do agree we show outwardly show our love by obeying His commands and yet there were people who tried to obey His commands that didn't do it out of love but to earn something. My feeling is that Scripture is God choosing to communicate with us. If I have a potential spouse and she writes me a letter and I don't care to read it and understand what she is trying to tell me, then I don't believe I can really say that I love her. If Scripture is truly God's inspired communication to us, then shouldn't we bury ourselves in it--not only to read the words to claim we've done it once or once a year, but to care enough to try to understand what God is saying to us as much as possible? You don't have to agree; but I am very very certain God has made this very very clear to me. Do you really think God would have a problem with us applying Luke 6:31 toward Him? Wouldn't that necessarily include obedience to Him?

I don't understand how you feel that is "bizarrely misguided" as you claimed.

(5) How do we know what we are supposed to do, without some level of understanding? As I said above, understanding necessarily leads to obedience; but you can have obedience to a set of rules that won't save you. Walking in the Spirit--walking in relationship with Him--is what matters.

(6) So, does God care that I am cheerfully willing to spend the time trying to help you understand? If I follow "Love your neighbor as yourself" and Luke 6:31, then I have to believe He does.

(7) Does my understanding matter? Within my first four years, God progressively took me to greater understanding that included the value of speaking in tongues (in private prayer) and the value of my laying hands on the sick where some can be instantaneously healed. Prior to that I prayed for people, but I can't tell you that anyone was healed or that any that were realized that they were healed by God through prayer. Since then, there are some who have to undeniably give God glory for their healing. They can't divert the glory anywhere else. They can't credit the doctors or the medicines or the surgeons for their healing. It was very clearly God. And, that is exactly what I told them. When I look at Scripture, Jesus Himself says there are signs that will show you who really believes (Mar 16:15-20).

(8) Paul talks about how we see dimly now, but Paul spent a lot of time presenting and defending the faith. He also warned (as did the other writers and Jesus Himself) about false prophets/teachers who were going to lead people astray. Without understanding/knowledge, how can you discern when someone is leading you astray? How can we defend the faith without knowing what the faith is? How can we answer questions without having some wisdom/understanding to base our responses? If everyone has understanding, why are there so many different denominations/churches that think they have the right understanding in their declaration of doctrine? Was it the Spirit's goal to breed the division or was it the lack of understanding that caused division?

(9) Jesus defines eternal life as "knowing The Father and the One, Jesus Christ, whom He sent." (John 17:3) Paul continues in 1 Cor 13 that there is coming a day where we will know as fully as we are known.

(10) When you consider those who are unbelievers, wouldn't you say that it is because of their lack of understanding? Because they can't understand God (at all) and therefore won't believe, they come up with alternative explanations rather than accept what God says is Truth. Nominal professing Christians are the same way mixing worldly knowledge with Scripture, because they don't really understand how powerful and able God is. Truth is, we can't believe beyond our level of understanding. Jesus had perfect understanding, He cursed a fig tree and it died and He told us we could tell a mountain to move and it would. How many do you know that have achieved that level of belief? Shoot how many believe to the level of casting out demons, speaking in tongues, and laying hands on the sick and watching them get healed? And yet, that's Jesus definition of belief.

(11) Jesus seemed to believe that anyone who was willing to do God's will would be able to know His doctrine. That devotion and willingness for forsake the things of this world for Him come with some level of understanding and therefore trust.

(12) Joseph's understanding enabled him to respond differently to his brothers than they were expecting: "you meant it for evil, but God meant it for good." Abraham's understanding and trust in God enabled him to challenge God's plan with regard to Sodom and enabled him to be willing to put his son on the altar and raise a knife in preparation to kill his own son. Without the new understanding caused by God sending Peter to Cornelius, Paul may not have been accepted at all. But Acts 15 followed Acts 11. I could go on.
 
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RDKirk

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Whether one believes in our free will having any importance or not CAN HAVE A BIG IMPACT on how we responds to what Jesus tells us to do.

No, it doesn't.

If it did, scripture would spell it out clearly by multiple witnesses, and there would no more doubt or discussion about free will than there is about the resurrection.
 
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Johnny4ChristJesus

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No, it doesn't.

If it did, scripture would spell it out clearly by multiple witnesses, and there would no more doubt or discussion about free will than there is about the resurrection.

Again you are free to choose to disagree. This was simply an example, not really to start a debate about free will.

But, I believe the witnesses do overtly assume your understanding that free will is involved when they talk about believing, when they present and defend the faith, when they are used to do signs and wonders, when they choose to forgive when they are being stoned (Stephen) or pronounce a curse in other situations (Peter and Paul). It is all to help people see and choose. For instance, when Peter spoke in Acts 2 under the power of the Holy Spirit, he was asked "what must we do?" and yet when the rich man asked Jesus the same question, he chose not to do what Jesus said, because he thought the cost was too great. In Acts 2, their hearts were pricked, so they chose to ask, because they recognized they needed to do something and were making the choice to do it. When the jailor, who was going to kill himself, was urged by Paul not to because all the prisoners--whose jail cells were open and shackles released--were still there. The jailor chose to ask "what must I do to be saved?"

But, again this whole "debate" started because you have a different understanding of the same Scripture than me. And, the result of that difference in understanding is that we respond differently to the same stimuli and we have a point (or many points) of division, not unity. Some read Scripture and focus on holiness--God tells us to "be holy for He is holy" and "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength"; and others read Scripture and focus on serving others--God says "the greatest among you is the servant of all" and "love your neighbor as yourself." It isn't supposed to be one or the other, it is supposed to be both; but there is a very clear division among people/churches/denominations. I don't see how we can walk in the Spirit and not necessarily do both.
 
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zippy2006

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No, it doesn't.

If it did, scripture would spell it out clearly by multiple witnesses, and there would no more doubt or discussion about free will than there is about the resurrection.

In reality there is no doubt about free will. All historical Christians have held to it excepting a few small sects. A tiny vocal minority is a minority all the same.

And if we're being honest there is literally as much doubt about the resurrection as there is about free will.
 
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ripple the car

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Some things are mysteries that we may not fully understand or know.

The Arminianism vs Calvinism thing.

God can at the same time give us free will, along with knowing in the end what we are going to do with it and where we will end up. I don't think God can be surprised or takes in knowledge passively. Since he is eternal, he also exists outside of time.

Could we be predestined? Maybe, who knows. What's the benefit of trying to understand God's decree anyways?

Although its interesting to see both theological views, does it produce any fruit is it worth going into?

A quote I found "I sometimes think it would be more profitable to just read the Bible and thank the Lord Jesus for saving us than try to figure it all out."
"Such a faith is preferable. People who try to be overly intellectual about the Bible sacrifice the mystery of the union with God to the reaches of their intellect."

That might not be a bad idea. I've watched people go nearly mad trying to sort out concepts that weeks ago, they had no idea existed.
 
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RDKirk

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In reality there is no doubt about free will. All historical Christians have held to it excepting a few small sects. A tiny vocal minority is a minority all the same.

Apparently not Paul, though. He wrote:

But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
...
The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.


And if we're being honest there is literally as much doubt about the resurrection as there is about free will.

There is nothing honest about that statement.

How many of the ancient creeds were as careful to include "free will" as they were the resurrection. Where in scripture does it say, "If there is no free will, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.If there is no free will, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith."

It doesn't say that anywhere. But it does say:

If there is no resurrection, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.

Go ahead and get literal about it. Produce the literal scripture that promotes free will as clearly and as vigorously and with as little doubt as the resurrection.
 
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zippy2006

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Apparently not Paul

No one interprets Paul as precluding free will except Predestinarians, Calvinists, Jansenists, and perhaps one or two other groups.

There is nothing honest about that statement.

Today, there "is literally as much doubt about the resurrection as there is about free will."

Other Christians can always argue with Calvinists, but there is very little doctrinal threat present there. The idea that there is some parity between determinism and free will in Christianity is absurd. It's just Calvinists trying to inflate their tiny minority into a sizable proportion.
 
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redleghunter

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No one interprets Paul as precluding free will except Predestinarians, Calvinists, Jansenists, and perhaps one or two other groups.
You did not read or you did not care to consider what @RDKirk posted.

He was quoting the bondage of the will verses in Romans 6.

Care to address this?
 
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