Are we all made in the image of God?

[timothyu]

God's Love comes first, we hear (see/experience) this Love, we trust (have faith) in God's undeserved, unconditional Love, humbly willingly accept His Love as pure undeserved charity in the form of accepting His forgiveness and then our of the resulting Godly type Love gifted to us we can repent (a gratitude type reaction).

Yet we must first understand why the ways and will of man run contrary to the will of God.

 

[bling]

Yet we must first understand why the ways and will of man run contrary to the will of God.

That is simply the fact: humans start out without Godly type Love.

The differences and issues begin with misunderstanding of the objective. Most Christians like: Man’s objective is to “bring glory to God” and have scripture references to support that objective, but a person can take any commandment of God given in scripture and have Biblical support for call that command: “Man’s objective”. We are certainly commanded to do that command, so why is it not man’s objective?

There are the two superior commands which all other commands are subordinate to and combined would be like: “Love God (and secondly others) with all your heart, soul, mind, and energy.” That appears to be man’s “Mission Statement”. The huge problem with fulfilling that “Mission Statement” is the fact that the “Love” needed would have to be huge, way beyond anything man could develop, learn, deserve, earn, pay back, be instinctive to man, or somehow just be forced upon humans.

Thus, the reason you have free will, is because it is required for you to complete your earthly objective.

This messed up world which includes satan roaming around is not here for your pleasure, but to help each of us to become like God Himself in that you have the unique, unbelievable Godly type Love (God himself is Love).

There are just somethings even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), like create another Christ, since Christ has always existed, the big impossibility for us is; create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also, if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type Love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)

Read the story of the Prodigal Son in Luke 15, the young son was generously given more then he could handle (like most of us today), which the father would realize. The prodigal son returned to his father, not out of “Love”, but selfishly wanting a job he did not deserve or should even ask for. Just because the son became just willing to accept pure undeserved charity from the father he hated, allowed the father to shower him with gifts. God is that way with you.

God has created beings to shower them with the greatest gifts possible, the greatest gift being having a Love like His.

If there is this Creator of the universe out there, His “creations” could not really “do” anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to “get” something from His creation.

Why would God have a totally unselfish type of Love, since He personally would not get anything out of it? If God’s “Love” is some kind of knee jerk reaction, then it is really meaningless (something like; gravity which is nice to have, but everyone automatically has it). God Loves us in spite of what we have done, who we are or what we will do, so it has to be by His choice.

God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force [Love] in all universes, since that force [Love] compels even God to do all He does) and thus the willing become like He is (the greatest gift He could give).

What keeps the all-powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation, eliminating the need for free will and this earthly time.

This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or ever deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).

This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.

All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them, burden them, to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

 

[WarriorAngel]

In our image, after our likeness: “image” and “likeness” express the worth of human beings who have value in themselves (human blood may not be shed in 9:6 because of this image of God) and in their task, dominion (1:28), which promotes the rule of God over the universe.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Adam and Eve were physically perfect. God made them in His image.

But what about all the people who were born with genetic defects? If we were all made in His image, why don't we all have perfect DNA? Millions of people have defects known to only be caused by flaws in either how an ovum is fertilized or the DNA itself - not anything the mom did wrong while she was pregnant.

The Divine Image has nothing to do with our DNA or our physical appearance.

It's about the fact that we were created to reflect God and be like Him.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[The Liturgist]

Did I actually see someone dare to suggest that men are created in the divine image, but women are not?

Because if so, there are so many theological problems with that view, aside from moral issues (relating to sexism), not the least of which is the Christological showstopper, in that our Lord put on our human nature by being born of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

 

[timothyu]

Did I actually see someone dare to suggest that men are created in the divine image, but women are not?

Some people don't like ribs I guess

 

[ViaCrucis]

Did I actually see someone dare to suggest that men are created in the divine image, but women are not?

Because if so, there are so many theological problems with that view, aside from moral issues (relating to sexism), not the least of which is the Christological showstopper, in that our Lord put on our human nature by being born of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

You'd be surprised just how common the idea that only men are made in God's image, and that women aren't, is in certain Christian circles. I'm fairly sure I recall hearing similar ideas when I was very young at least from some adults concerning 1 Corinthians 11:7. These tended to also be the sorts I remember saying women wearing pants was evil and that it was a sin for a man to have a beard (yes, really).

-CryptoLutheran

 

[The Liturgist]

You'd be surprised just how common the idea that only men are made in God's image, and that women aren't, is in certain Christian circles. I'm fairly sure I recall hearing similar ideas when I was very young at least from some adults concerning 1 Corinthians 11:7. These tended to also be the sorts I remember saying women wearing pants was evil and that it was a sin for a man to have a beard (yes, really).

-CryptoLutheran

Unfortunately I am not surprised; there is a crypto-Arian belief known as “eternal subordinationism” which denies the coequality of Christ in order to justify the enforced subordination, or, rather, we should say, enforced subjugation, of women. We see this quite a bit in some of the outer fringes of Calvinism* and the non-denominational churches* that tend to get covered for the wrong reasons on blogs like Wartburg Watch. However, I have not encountered anyone denying that women possess the divine image. It seems to me even harder to reconcile that with the Nicene Creed than it is to reconcile Eternal Subordinationism.

*To be clear, by outer fringes, I mean extreme outer fringes; their relationship with the Calvinist and Non Denominational churches represented in the membership on CF.com is like the relationship between certain Priestless Old Believer Russian Orthodox who do not practice marriage, because they believe there are no living validly ordained Orthodox priests or bishops to officiate, and the Eastern Orthodox members on this site and for that matter the majority of priestless Russian Old Believers who still do celebrate marriage, or, to use another analogy, like the difference between snake handling Pentecostals of the Appalachians and the mainstream Pentecostals we see here, etc.

 

[apollosdtr]

Adam and Eve were physically perfect. God made them in His image.

But what about all the people who were born with genetic defects? If we were all made in His image, why don't we all have perfect DNA? Millions of people have defects known to only be caused by flaws in either how an ovum is fertilized or the DNA itself - not anything the mom did wrong while she was pregnant.

Seems like you're right... can't fight DNA.
Seed of the Woman - Index

Which haplogroup is Cro-Magnon? R1b or I?
Scientists Claim Cro Magnon DNA Fully Modern, Unchanged For 28.000 Years & Disprove “Out Of Africa” Claim

Who would've killed Cain if nobody else lived there? Did Cain marry Denisovan or Neanderthal?

 

[Michael V. Pardo]

If you don't know yourself you cannot know God. If you don't know God you cannot know yourself.

I agree with a lot of your statements, but not this one.
It's very easy to be self deceived because we are not just creatures of reason, but creatures of emotion and emotion is not at all trustworthy.

“The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it? Jeremiah 17:9

I've heard well meaning people suggest, "just follow your heart," but that really isn't wise advice at all. It's far better to let the word of God be a lamp for your footsteps.

 

[timothyu]

It's very easy to be self deceived because we are not just creatures of reason, but creatures of emotion and emotion is not at all trustworthy.

I've heard well meaning people suggest, "just follow your heart," but that really isn't wise advice at all. It's far better to let the word of God be a lamp for your footsteps.

Absolutely. All I was referring to was what Jesus said about being in the Father and vice versa. We are extensions of God, not gods. Thing is, most choose to sever the conduit used for God to work through us, our self interest taking priority.

 

[Michael V. Pardo]

Seems like you're right... can't fight DNA.
Seed of the Woman - Index

Which haplogroup is Cro-Magnon? R1b or I?
Scientists Claim Cro Magnon DNA Fully Modern, Unchanged For 28.000 Years & Disprove “Out Of Africa” Claim

Who would've killed Cain if nobody else lived there? Did Cain marry Denisovan or Neanderthal?

After he begot Seth, the days of Adam were eight hundred years; and he had sons and daughters. Genesis 5:4

The scriptures don't mention any children specifically other than Cain, Abel, and Seth, but do tell us that Adam and Eve had other sons and daughters. We don't see any lineage for Abel, but we don't know what his age was when he was murdered or if he'd been married and had any sons and daughters. The genealogy of Adam and Eve doesn't list every child or their disposition, and with life spans approaching a thousand years, people could have a lot of children. Some families have a dozen or more children in our greatly shortened life spans. Do the math.

The given genealogy represents the generations of man and is given for an understanding and the revelation of God in the person of Jesus Christ. I heard one entertaining message that examined the names by their meaning in the lineage up to the flood. When put in sequence they actually give specific messages, but you have to separate the line of Seth to Noah from Cain's descendents.

 

[The Liturgist]

Duplicate

 

[Michael V. Pardo]

Duplicate

I don't recollect one way or the other, nor do I remember the messages laid out by the lineages. If we accept that there was only one creation and that Adam is the father of all human flesh, then all humanity before the flood was closely related and the greatest divergence of blood lines occurred after the destruction of the tower of Babel.

This has never been of particular interest to me beyond the possible identities of the modern nations as mentioned in biblical prophecy. None of it is particularly relevant to redemption beyond evidences of levitical authority under the law of Moses and kingly lineage following the prophetic promises given to David. I don't even know my own lineage beyond two or three generations on one side of my family or the other. Birth records on paper have a tendency to get burnt during civil wars and invasions.

I did hear an interesting message by James Montgomery Boice once on the dispersion of the peoples to the various nations that followed, but I haven't a clue what it was titled or I would have downloaded it as a podcast and transcribed it for reference. However, I don't know if his source was strictly scripture or combined with extra biblical resources.

I own a copy of the antiquities of the Jews, but never bothered reading it in its entirety once I'd realized that it varies from the biblical narrative.

Even English translations of historical writings can be tedious reading and some histories, like Charlemagne's, are highly embellished, sometimes confusing time lines and events, and always placing the winners of conflicts in the best light possible.

The biblical narrative is more trustworthy in that respect as it portrays history with all the warts and blemishes as the perspective of God. Even Solomon's more grevious sins are at least mentioned, even if they were "minimized" by the scribes who noted them.

 

[Michael V. Pardo]

Some people don't like ribs I guess

Only with barbecue sauce.

 

[timothyu]

Only with barbecue sauce.

And there lies the problem. Females said it was sleep on the couch for males if bbq sauce wasn't replaced with fancy cloths and jewels.

 

[apollosdtr]

After he begot Seth, the days of Adam were eight hundred years; and he had sons and daughters. Genesis 5:4

The scriptures don't mention any children specifically other than Cain, Abel, and Seth, but do tell us that Adam and Eve had other sons and daughters. We don't see any lineage for Abel, but we don't know what his age was when he was murdered or if he'd been married and had any sons and daughters. The genealogy of Adam and Eve doesn't list every child or their disposition, and with life spans approaching a thousand years, people could have a lot of children. Some families have a dozen or more children in our greatly shortened life spans. Do the math.

The bible records the traits of Cain's children... herds, tents, metallurgy. Since these traits remained within the steppe people, at least one of the survivors of the flood had to've married into Cain's family... right? Nod was aka the land of wandering... nomads, in fact. Herodotus called them Scythians.

 

[Michael V. Pardo]

The bible records the traits of Cain's children... herds, tents, metallurgy. Since these traits remained within the steppe people, at least one of the survivors of the flood had to've married into Cain's family... right? Nod was aka the land of wandering... nomads, in fact. Herodotus called them Scythians.

I think this is most likely, but God is the source of all knowledge and wisdom and can gift whomever He chooses with skills in craftmanship:
30 And Moses said to the children of Israel, “See, the Lord has called by name Bezalel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah; 31 and He has filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom and understanding, in knowledge and all manner of workmanship, 32 to design artistic works, to work in gold and silver and bronze, 33 in cutting jewels for setting, in carving wood, and to work in all manner of artistic workmanship.

34 “And He has put in his heart the ability to teach, in him and Aholiab the son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan. 35 He has filled them with skill to do all manner of work of the engraver and the designer and the tapestry maker, in blue, purple, and scarlet thread, and fine linen, and of the weaver—those who do every work and those who design artistic works. Exodus 35:30-35

Traditionally in the trades, skill sets were passed down through apprenticeship from fathers to sons, but someone demonstrating the aptitude and desire to learn could be trained if the "master" craftsman was willing to take them on. The ancient guilds were protective of their knowledge and it was my experience that some skilled technicians in my own vocation were the same way as it made them more valued (at least in their own eyes.)

I picked up a couple old books from an instructional series called "Audels Masons and Builders Guide." Each has a quote before the publishing information and contents by a man named John Ruskin:
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone. Let it be such work as our descendents shall thank us for, and let us think, as we lay stone on stone, that a time is to come when those stones will be held sacred because our hands have touched them, and that men will say, as they look upon the labor and wrought substance of them, "See! This our father did for us." - John Ruskin.

This expressed philosophy at once acknowledges God's origination of a skill set given to the trades as instruments of God, or alternatively a shared belief that we are gods because of our skills, revealing a duplicity of mind and motive. Pride will do that.

I wonder if the original murderer, thief, and liar arrived at the conclusion that his power and authority were derived from his own person and not from his creator, even as Nebuchadnezzar looked out upon his works and said, “Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for a royal dwelling by my mighty power and for the honor of my majesty?”

Of course, duplicity isn't unique to builders , but finds it's common expression in hypocrisy, which is always an expression of deception, and commonly self deception.
"The fool has said in his heart, "there is no God."

 

[Jonaitis]

Adam and Eve were physically perfect. God made them in His image.

But what about all the people who were born with genetic defects? If we were all made in His image, why don't we all have perfect DNA? Millions of people have defects known to only be caused by flaws in either how an ovum is fertilized or the DNA itself - not anything the mom did wrong while she was pregnant.

The imago dei that man was made in refers to qualities that he shares, to a limited extent, with God, such as intelligence, rationality and moralism. This image was damaged after the fall, and so we are corrupt in all these communicable qualities of God.

 

[pescador]

Adam and Eve were physically perfect. God made them in His image.

But what about all the people who were born with genetic defects? If we were all made in His image, why don't we all have perfect DNA? Millions of people have defects known to only be caused by flaws in either how an ovum is fertilized or the DNA itself - not anything the mom did wrong while she was pregnant.

Since Adam was a man and Eve was a woman, how could they both be made in the image of God? Obviously it's not based on physical appearance, so what is the answer? The answer is that we are made in His spiritual image, not physical appearance. When we look at anyone -- babies, young, old, skin color, eye shape, hair color, male, female -- including those with "genetic defects" -- we are supposed to see the spiritual image of God.