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Are they with Jesus now or asleep until he raise them later?

Clare73

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But 'physical' only in the sense that it looks like flesh, feels like flesh, can eat earthly food, but is not of the flesh.
Jesus emphasized to the apostles that his body was flesh (Lk 24:39).

You seem to be confusing Paul's use of human flesh in 1 Co 15:44-47 with another meaning of "flesh" used by Paul; i.e., the sinful nature.
Flesh is used two ways in the NT:
1) of physical human flesh (Lk 24:39, 1Co 15),
2) of the sinful nature (Ro 8).

His use of flesh in 1 Co 15:44-47 is of physical human flesh, not of the sinful human nature.
Per 1 Corinthians 15:45-47 showed that Christ's raised flesh body was at some point "made a quickening spirit"...
It's not about his body, it's about his nature. . .just as being the Son of God was not about his body but about his divine nature.
Christ himself by his nature, not his body, is the quickening spirit; i.e., has life in himself and gives life to whom he will (Jn 5:20-21).
1 Cor 15:44-47
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
A contrast between the body we have from (the first) Adam and the body we have from (the second Adam) Christ.

The body from Adam is natural (sinful)j. . .the spiritual body from Christ is spiritual (of the Holy Spirit, sinless).
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
The first Adam was a living soul, as ourselves, propagating progeny with a nature and animal body like his own.
The last Adam is a life-giving spirit, the resurrection and the life (Jn 11:25), and as state above, with life in himself and giving life to whom he will (Jn 5:20-21).
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
This is God's order, first the natural, then the spiritual. We must first have natural bodies from the first Adam before we can have spiritual bodies from the second Adam.
As the descendants from the earthly man received natural, earthly bodies, so the redeemed of the second Adam will receive glorified, spiritual bodies.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
KJV
The first Adam gives us natural and animal bodies fitted to the earth, the second Adam gives us spiritual (sinless) bodies fitted for heaven.

Nothing in the above states that Jesus' body was not physical flesh.
Everything indicates that it was not sinful flesh, but spiritual (sinless) flesh, which are the same flesh.
Spiritual (sinless) flesh does not mean it is not 100% flesh.
Yes, that is one of the mysteries (secrets; i.e., never before revealed by God) Paul reveals.
Jesus did not say the unjust would have spiritual (sinless) glorified bodies, only that they would be raised.

And paul is speaking to Christians about their resurrection bodies in Christ.
He does not treat of the resurrection bodies of the condemned.
 
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Davy

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"Flesh" is used two ways in the NT:
1) the natural human body (Jesus' resurrection body),
2) the sinful nature (flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God).
That's not correct. Jesus' resurrection body Paul showed in 1 Corinthians 15 is a "quickening spirit" (1 Corinthians 15:44-47). One cannot assign flesh to a "quickening spirit".

Have you never read this below about Jesus' body being quickened by The Spirit when He went at His resurrection to preach the Gospel to the "spirits in prison", which was about those who had died back to the time of Noah per the 1 Peter 3 Scripture?

1 Peter 4:6
6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh,
but live according to God in the spirit.
KJV

The Old Testament patriarchs are very alive in the heavenly today, in their spirit bodies.

Jesus' flesh body was raised and kept the marks of His crucifixion, and was then 'quickened' to a spirit body at some point. Resurrection for those who have already died is not like that, as they won't go through a change from flesh to spirit, because they are already there and in their spirit body.

Luke 20:37-38
37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
38 For He is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto Him.
KJV


When Paul is speaking of the "spiritual body" in 1 Corinthians 15, he is NOT speaking of a flesh physical body. You cannot confuse the "natural body" he spoke of with the "spiritual body", he kept those two things separate, just like Lord Jesus did also...

John 3:6
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
KJV


Even trying... to treat 'spirit' or the "spiritual body" as if it were flesh is actually an indirect disbelief in God Himself. Here is why...

In Hebrews 11, Paul revealed that the things seen in this world were not created by things that are made. That means flesh did not create flesh, nor did matter create matter. Science defines this idea in physics, saying that material earthly matter can neither be created nor destroyed, but only changes its form (solid, liquid, gas, vapor). And in John 4 he said that "God is a Spirit". That should make sense to any believer in God, because He created all things by The Spirit through His Son Jesus Christ, also according to Hebrews.

So to believe that the heavenly, or spirit, or even God, is made up of material matter is gross error in thinking. There are 2 different dimensions of existence defined in God's Word, and Apostle Paul gave us the clearest definition of those 2 dimensions, just as Lord Jesus did in John 3 with contrasting flesh and Spirit as two totally separate operations.

So does Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 also make a clear distinction between the two dimensions, one of the earthy, and the other of spirit. There it revealed our flesh goes back to the earthly elements where it came from when we die. But our spirit goes back to God Who gave it.

Jesus speaking here:

Luke 16:22-23
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died,
and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
KJV


Tell me then, HOW was that rich man, having died and been buried, was able to be aware of being in hell and lifting up his eyes to see Abraham in the heavenly?
 
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Clare73

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That's not correct. Jesus' resurrection body Paul showed in 1 Corinthians 15 is a "quickening spirit" (1 Corinthians 15:44-47). One cannot assign flesh to a "quickening spirit".
"A quickening Spirit". . .Jesus is the Holy Spirit (2 Co 3:17-18).
 
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Davy

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"A quickening Spirit". . .Jesus is the Holy Spirit (2 Co 3:17-18).
Yeah, The Godhead is made up of God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Spirit, 3 Persons as One.

When John said this...

John 4:24
24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.
KJV


When Jesus appeared to Abraham back in the Old Testament, like He pointed to at the end of John 8, He was not in a flesh body, so how... did He communicated with Abraham in Genesis 18?

Firstly, it's because like Hebrews 1 revealed, that Jesus is the "express image" of The Father's Person. And since Genesis 1:26-27 reveals that God made man with His Own Image Likeness, that means the 'image of man' began with The Father in Heaven, and not with Adam's flesh. This also is why the angels in God's Word are shown with that image of man. Even Archangel Gabriel's name means 'man of God'.

The matter is revealed simply in God's Word, but more in The New Testament Scriptures than in the Old Testament Books. The REAL us, our true 'person', is NOT our flesh body. Our true person is our 'spirit' with 'soul' that is attached to our flesh body.

And at flesh death, our "silver cord" of Eccl.12 is severed, and our flesh body goes back to the earthly material elements where it came from, and we will never need it again. But our spirit with soul goes back to God in the Heavenly dimension, which is hidden behind a type of spiritual veil for this present world so we cannot see into it, unless God allows it like He did with His prophets.

In the world to come, this earth and the universe is still going to exist. But the Heavenly dimension is going to be revealed to everyone, even the wicked. It will be revealed right here on earth in the same time and space. So this present world time is temporary, and not the true existence God had planned for us. If it were, then His Salvation would be of this present world time with no one having to die.
 
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Divide

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fast as one can blink.

It's actually faster than that. It's, in the twinkling of any eye which is the time it takes for light to pass through the retina of your eye. That short twinkle of light is seriously faster than a blink!
 
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Davy

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You've never read Zechariah 14 about Jesus future coming and reign upon this earth, nor Revelation 20 about His reign upon the still existing earth after His future coming? Shame, shame.
 
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Divide

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Whenever Jesus said in John that no man had ascended to heaven he had not beed crucified or died yet, ok? But when He died on the cross and went into the bowels of the earth for three days and rose on the third day, he set the captives free which were in Paradise up until that time. Now that Jesus has paid the price when a Believer dies he goes directly to be with Jesus in Heaven then. The condemned who are awaiting judgement are still in Hell since they died. But that is not their final destination!

The Judgement will come and then they go into the lake of fire. Believers final destination is not Heaven! Believers final destination is in the city of New Jerusalem on the new earth.
 
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Divide

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Revelation says that Jesus returns with the Saints. He could not "return" with them if He left them on earth sleeping in the grave! When Believers die, they are with Jesus then, and make up the cloud of witnesses for now, and I'm sure that Jesus gives them other things to do too. SO we all have a cheering section in heaven! My grandma and mom & dad are cheering for me!

Point: They get transformed into immortal beings at the rapture before the tribulation. So when they (we) return with Jesus and reign with Him for 1000 years on earth, it will be as immortal beings. But there will still be many mortal humans on earth and being born during the millenium. That should be interesting.
 
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BobRyan

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1 Thess 4:13-18 is the Bible instruction for the message that should be preached at a funeral -

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

First of all this message IS the "message of hope" for a departed loved ones.
1. They have fallen asleep in Jesus
2. They will be raised up - at the rapture along with the living saints.
3. Because of this - we will be with the LORD

1 Peter 1:13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, set your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

instead of focused on death.

Matt 22 - Jesus said that PROOF of the resurrection is that God says "I AM the God of Abraham" when speaking to Moses at the burning bush -- because as Jesus said "God is not the God of the dead" and His argument is that this statement is a reference to the future resurrection, such that without it God could not make that statement.
 
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BobRyan

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IT is a parable of prayers to the dead where God is not prayed to - rather it is Abraham who is prayed to such that Abraham is in charge of all the saints. Abraham determines who gets to be resurrected to return and witness to the living and who does not in that parable. IT is similar to the parable in the OT where the trees go out to elect a king.

Christ ends that Luke 16 parable with this lesson "if they do not listen to Moses then neither will they listen - though one rises from the dead"
 
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Davy

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I'm sorry, I have to laugh at such Biblical ignorance and blind following of men's false doctrines.

I'm not covering the below for you, since I doubt you will pay any attention to it. I'm doing this for those who will... read it as written and are given to understand:

Zech 14:1-9
14 Behold,
the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

There following events are timed with the "day of the Lord" prophecy that Apostles Peter and Paul covered about the ending of this present world. In 2 Peter 3:10, Peter foretold the destruction of this present earth by God's consuming fire, saying that the day of the Lord will come "as a thief in night". In 1 Thessalonians 5, Apostle Paul also foretold of a "sudden destruction" coming upon the wicked on that same "day of the Lord", as he also said it will come "as a thief in the night". In Revelation 16:15, Jesus still speaking to His Church on earth, warned that He comes "as a thief", and for us to keep our garments lest He come and find us spiritually naked and in shame. Now those are the last... Biblical references for the timing of that "day of the Lord" event, showing it is for the last day of this world when Jesus comes and God's consuming fire ends this present 2nd world earth age. It is the same... "day of the Lord" event spoke of here with Jesus' future coming.

2 For
I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

That gathering of nations for battle is about the future Revelation 16 battle of Armageddon, with the nations gathered around Jerusalem so God will pour out His cup of Wrath upon them. That future event on the last day of this world was also covered in Zephaniah 3:8. It is also the same event of Ezekiel 38 & 39, Joel 3:2, Micah 4:11-13, Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:17-19.

3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when He fought in the day of battle.
4
And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

On that day, Jesus' feet shall stand upon the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem, which is also where He ascended to Heaven from per Acts 1, in view of His disciples. After He ascended before them, two angels appeared there and asked His disciples why they were looking at Him going up, because He will return "in like manner" as they saw Him go up into Heaven.

And guess what? The Mount of Olives today is still intact; it has not yet split with half of the mountain removed toward the north, and the other half moved to south, like the above prophecy declares. That prophesied great valley there has not happened yet today. But it will, when Jesus returns in our near future. You can count on it.

5
And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with Thee.

That above is actually about the 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 events of Jesus gathering His Church on the day of His future coming. It doesn't tell you there where Jesus's destination is, but it is telling us that here and also in Acts 1, right upon this very Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem. And He will bring all His 'faithful' saints with Him there.

6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7
But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

Do you recall Jesus saying in Matthew 24:36 that no man knows the day or hour of His coming, but only The Father? Well, there it is again above. That's yet another clue of many here that this Zechariah 14 Chapter IS STILL YET FUTURE TO US EVEN.

8 And it shall be in that day,
that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

I've noticed a lot of my Christian brethren are not aware that God's River is to return to this earth for the time of Christ's coming "thousand years" Millennium reign. Ezekiel 47 covers it in detail, while Revelation 22 lightly mentions it, which has caused many to think that River will only manifest in God's new heavens and a new earth time for after Christ's 1,000 years reign. No, that River returns with Christ Jesus, and also Ezekiel's temple is for that 1,000 years Millennium too (see Ezekiel 40 thru 47).

9
And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and His name one.
KJV

That is STILL... yet to happen today. It will only happen once Lord Jesus Christ returns to this earth in our near future. At present, there are many different 'gods' and 'kings' upon today's earth that peoples and nations bow down to, while only a few nations actually follow The ONE God of Israel and His Son Jesus Christ by The Holy Spirit. So that should be so................ easy........... to understand that verse is still for the future.
 
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Davy

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I don't know where the heck you got that idea.

The saints do not pray to Abraham.

As far as that being just a parable, or story Lord Jesus was giving, no matter, because He would still not mislead us with descriptions of fake places and things. That Paradise in the heavenly with a division between the abode of the wicked called hell, and across a great fixed border where Abraham and the saved are, is real. The Jews back then actually understood about the existence of Paradise in the heavenly dimension. Even Apostle Paul proclaimed it in 2 Corinthians 12.

The OT parable in Judges 9, where the trees want to find a king, I don't see it has a relation to the story of Lazarus and the rich man which Lord Jesus gave in Luke 16. The rich man simply followed the ways of this world, while Lazarus didn't, which reveals two manner of peoples on earth, God followers vs. world followers who disregard God.

Christ ends that Luke 16 parable with this lesson "if they do not listen to Moses then neither will they listen - though one rises from the dead"

That's right, because Christ was prophesied of in the Old Testament prophets first. King David was given to prophesy of events of Christ's crucifixion about 1,000 years before it happened! (see Psalms 22). So couldn't the scribes and Pharisees recognize Jesus' crucifixion events by that Psalms 22 Scripture they were supposed to have read? Psalms 22 even prophesied about the soldiers casting lots on Christ's robes.
 
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Trivalee

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Indeed stories abound of people that have had out-of-body experiences where they go to heaven or hell or both and then return to their mortal bodies to share their experiences. I do not dismiss these accounts as unreal; however, the concept of believers in heaven now and the wicked in hell right now, contradicts the scriptures.
  • If the righteous and the wicked are already in heaven and hell, what then is the essence of the resurrection? If the righteous have already received immortality and are in heaven, why did 1 Cor 15:42-44 tell us that immortality is given at the resurrection? God honours his word more than his name - so why would he tell us one thing in scripture and contradict it in reality?
  • God is not partial: if the righteous are free in heaven, how do we explain the souls of the righteous said to be under the altar in Rev 6:10-11 who God told to be patient until their brethren on earth meet their fate?
  • Why would some saints be free in heaven while others are under the altar?
What I believe is that no one (neither the wicked nor the righteous) is in heaven or hell right now. My understanding is that all are still in the grave awaiting the resurrection when they receive either immortality or damnation according to their acceptance or rejection of Christ's salvation. How then do we explain those seen in heaven and hell by those that have had out-of-body experiences? To understand this; the scripture describes Jesus Christ as
  • The Author and Finisher of our faith
  • The Beginning and the End
What these imply is that the Lord is able to give a preview and show (those with out-of-body experience) people that will end up in hellfire when they arise. The same goes for those that will receive immortality and enter into heaven when they resurrect.
 
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Davy

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When trying to understand God's written Word, we have to be careful of preconceived notions planted by the doctrines of men. Things we may not yet understand in Scripture are just that, as we are not asked to change their meaning so it can better fit what we already believe, but we instead are asked to believe God's Word as written. Then pray about something in it we don't yet understand.

What of these Scriptures then...

Matt 27:50-53
50 Jesus, when He had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
KJV

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God,
being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
KJV

1 Peter 4:6
6 For, for this cause was
the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
KJV

Matt 17:1-4
17 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2
And was transfigured before them: and His face did shine as the sun, and His raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with Him.
4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
KJV


We know Elijah ("Elias" per Greek) was taken up and didn't die in his flesh. But Moses we know did die, as God buried him. So how could Moses appear there talking to Christ if Moses was in a grave in the ground somewhere?

I'm forced to assume that you believe in men's doctrine of the 'dead in the ground' theory, like when we die our soul is dead with our flesh, and we must wait on Christ's future coming before we can have awareness again, and might even quote from Ecclesiastes 9 that the 'dead know nothing', and that our flesh is raised at the resurrection to a new flesh body.
 
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Trivalee

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You seem to have a tendency for the superfluous. You don't have to need to copy and paste the whole Bible to make a simple point. Even then, none of your citations proves that the dead (whether righteous or wicked) is in heaven or hell right now!

1-Let's start with those that rose from the dead in Matt 27:50-53. The scripture says they rose and went into town to show themselves. I ask you then; does it show that there are in heaven or hell?

2-1 Peter 3:18 - how does this passage relate to the issue of whether the dead or are in heaven or hell at the moment?

3-1 Peter 4:6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. Again, how does this text remotely relate to the discourse?

4-Matt 17:14 - Same as above.

Do you think that God is partial to allowing some faithful into heaven and leaving the rest in the grave? The transfiguration was the spirit of Elijah and Moses speaking with the Lord. That doesn't mean that Moses is in heaven right now! You make a song and dance about men believing "in the doctrines of men". But from what I've seen in your post, either you don't understand the Bible or you've taken your own preconceived notion to a new level.

You seem to be one of those that jump into an argument and start throwing accusations left, right and centre, without first understanding the issues. Below is the question a brother asked which I responded to:

Those who have passed away recently or long time ago.....are they with Jesus in heaven right now? Looking down on us?
Or are they still in sleep and will be raised when Jesus returns? Often times we see in movies or hear in stories and interviews that so and so passed away and they are looking down at them from heaven right now. Is there any biblical truth to this? Is my grandmother watching over me and protecting me or watching my football games or....etc etc. From seeker 2122 Post #79

The brother was asking whether the dead are now in heaven and I pointed out (using the scriptures) that they are not - at least not until the resurrection. You jumped in and accused me of approaching scripture with a preconceived notion and then proceeded to show your ignorance of the issue being discussed by quoting scripture that neither proves the dead are in heaven nor in hell.
 
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Davy

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You seem to have a tendency for the superfluous.
That's a very rude... statement, especially since what I did was stay with the actual written Scripture, and NOT doctrines created by men.

So right off the bat, you force me to assume that you are NOT interested in keeping to what God's Word says as written. That also smells to me a sign of an unbeliever. Therefore... this is what I think of those who choose to follow men's doctrines instead of staying in God's written Word...

2 Cor 6:14-15
14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
KJV
 
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Davy

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Here's Scripture in 1 Corinthians 15 by Apostle Paul that apparently doesn't get much coverage in the churches today, probably because preachers think it requires too much thought to understand it, and they are afraid of confusing some in the congregation. Well, it's late in the day, and it's time the lazy in Christ's Church woke up and paid attention in His Word.

1 Cor 15:20-23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming.
KJV


Some have the false idea that the resurrection to the "spiritual body" that Apostle Paul was talking about in that 1 Corinthians 15 chapter is about those in Christ only. They try to equate that "spiritual body" with Christ's Salvation only. That body does not mean automatic Salvation in Christ, it is simply a body type for the heavenly dimension. And you already have it inside you, attached to your flesh body. It leaves your flesh body when you die, or even in a near death experience (but your "silver cord" is not severed with an NDE).


Paul covered this about the wicked also. That verse 23 above is only about those in Christ Jesus. But verse 22 right before it includes all men, not just the Church. "For as in Adam all die...", who all would that apply too, just the Church only?? No, of course not, it applies to all that die in Adam because of being under Adam's sin. That includes the non-believer also.

Thus the next phrase, "... even so in Christ shall all be made alive," is also pointing to all men. It does NOT mean all are 'saved', but means the wicked dead will also be raised to their own type of resurrection, i.e., the "resurrection of damnation" that Jesus said in John 5. But further down in 1 Cor.15, Apostle Paul covered that "made alive" with the wicked that are still alive on earth also on the day of Christ's future coming.

In this next section, Apostle Paul covers the gathering of Christ's saints, but also the fate of the wicked that are still alive on the day of Christ's coming...

1 Cor 15:51-55
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall
all be changed,

Paul's idea above about being "changed" he covered just prior to this, about our "natural body" being changed to our "spiritual body" which is the resurrection type body, the "image of the heavenly" he also called it.

In the above, Paul says we "all" shall be changed. That includes the unbelievers also. And that change is only about to the "image of the heavenly". That image body of the future does NOT mean automatic Salvation in Jesus Christ. Paul covers this very point later in the Greek. The 'unjust' will be changed to the "spiritual body" also on that same day of Christ's coming. But their condition will still be subject to the "second death" of Rev.20, and there's the difference. Those in Christ of the "first resurrection" will never be subject to the "second death" of being cast into the "lake of fire."

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Once again, that applies to all on the day of Christ's coming, including the wicked, both still alive and dead. No one will be in a flesh body any longer when Jesus returns. We all will have that "image of the heavenly" that Paul said, so let me remind you of exactly what Paul said about that image...

1 Cor 15:48-49
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
KJV

Have the wicked borne the "image of the earthy"? Yes, of course. So likewise they will also bear that "image of the heavenly", because what that image is about is what everyone must manifest in the Heavenly dimension. And on the day of Christ's coming, the Heavenly dimension is going to be exposed to everyone in plain sight. This is why even the wicked on the 6th Seal will wish to hide from the face of Him That is sitting upon His Throne in Heaven on that day when the Heavenly is rolled together like a scroll.

1 Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

That is where it is very important to take those 4 words Paul used so to understand about the unsaved being in the "spiritual body" also, but their souls still being a liable to perish state being without Christ Jesus.

1. "corruptible" = Greek phthartos = perishable, decayed, i.e. our flesh body.
2. "incorruption" = Greek aphthrsia = unending existence, the "image of the heavenly", the "spiritual body".
3. "this mortal" = Greek thnetos = liable to die, the soul's mortal condition without Christ.
4. "immortality" = Greek athanasia = deathlessness, Christ's Salvation of eternal life.

The wicked dead will be resurrected to the "spiritual body", and the wicked still alive will be changed also to the "spiritual body" on the day of Christ's future return. But their "this mortal" part, their mortal souls, will STILL be in a 'liable to perish' condition throughout Christ's future "thousand years" reign. That liable to perish condition is what the "second death" of Rev.20 is about. They will still be under that, being without Christ.

Thus many confuse that resurrection body, the "spiritual body", with Christ's Salvation, when that body is simply about the image of that future heavenly dimension that will be revealed right here on earth at Christ's coming.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory."
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
KJV


You do realize that Apostle Paul was QUOTING that "Death is swallowed up in victory" from the Old Testament prophets, right? Here it is...

Isa 25:6-9
6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

7 And
He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

8
He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
9 And it shall be said in that day, "Lo, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation.
KJV


The verse 7 & 8 events are tied together. On that day, God will end "the face of the covering cast over all people", so what's that? That's what Paul was pointing to about with death being swallowed up in victory. It's about the END of this present flesh world, and the change to the glorious body of the world to come under Christ Jesus.

That "covering cast over all people" is the flesh body. It is a temporary body only for this present 2nd world earth age. That is also what that, "vail that is spread over all nations" is too. Our flesh body acts as a veil for our spiritual body that we ALREADY HAVE that dwells INSIDE our flesh body, and is attached to our flesh via the "silver cord" (see 2 Corinthians 5 and Eccl.12).

On the 'last day', the "day of the Lord" when God's consuming fire will burn man's works off the surface of this earth per 2 Peter 3:10, is when all this casting off that covering and vail will happen. That is the day of Christ's future coming and the start of the world to come, a Heavenly dimension manifesting right here upon this earth in plain sight.
 
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Trivalee

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I have little patience with people who jump into a discussion and copy and paste irrelevant texts that have no nothing to do with the topic under discussion. I showed you the post I responded to, a careful review will show that your response was off-course. If you are reasonable, you should have addressed the real issue on the table, instead, the best you could do is 2 Cor 6:14-15.

Go and waste your time elsewhere...
 
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Clare73

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Keeping in mind that according to all NT teaching, only the redeemed sons of God are in Christ.

#1) 1 Co 15:22 - "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive" corresponds to
. . . .Ro 5:18-19 - " For just as
through the disobedience of the one man, the many were made sinners,
. . . . . . . . . . . ..so also, through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

In both texts, the meaning is, "all those in Adam (i.e., his descendants) die. . . . .made sinners,
while all those in Christ (i.e., who are related to him by faith) will be made alive. . . . .righteous.

#2) Likewise, according to Paul's usage of the words:

natural - sinful, mortal, weak,
spiritual - (of the Holy Spirit) sinless, immortal, perfect (Paul does not mean immaterial, non-physical here, as spiritual is commonly used),
flesh - natural body (sinful, mortal, weak)--1 Co 15:50

the natural physical body (prior to death) is sinful, mortal, weak, and
the spiritual physical body (of the resurrection of those in Christ) is sinless, immortal, perfect.

Paul neither treats of the resurrection of, nor presents a description of the resurrection bodies of, those not in Christ and who are damned.
You are not understanding Paul's use of the word "spiritual." It does not mean without flesh and bones; i.e., a spirit.

In the NT, both the body of earth and the resurrection body are physical material bodies, just as Christ's earth and resurrection bodies were.
Man's physical natural body of earth = (sinful, mortal weak),
man's physical spiritual body of the resurrection (just as Jesus' resurrection body is physical) = (sinless, immortal, perfect).

Earth body = physical, natural (sinful, mortal, weak)
Resurrection body = physical, spiritual (sinless, immortal, perfect)
Addressed in #1 (of my first response) above; i.e.,

all in Adam = (all those born of Adam) his descendants.
all in Christ = (all those born of Christ) related to him by faith.
It does NOT mean all are 'saved',
Everywhere in the NT, "in Christ" means saved.
Nowhere in the NT does "in Christ" mean the unsaved.
Paul does not treat of the resurrection of the damned.
1 Co 15:22-23 is in the context of the resurrection of the redeemed.
"For as in Adam all (his descendants) die, so in Christ all (who are related to him by faith) will be made alive.
But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits, then when he comes those who belong to him."

1 Cor 15:51-55
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall
all be changed,
The early church, including Paul (1Th 4:15-17, "we"), believed the rapture would occur in their lifetime.
Paul is talking here about the saints who are alive on the ground at the second coming (in which he includes himself, as in Php 4:5, Heb 10:25, Heb 10:37, etc.) being changed to their resurrection bodies.
Paul's idea above about being "changed" he covered just prior to this, about our "natural body" being changed to our "spiritual body" which is the resurrection type body, the "image of the heavenly" he also called it.
The "image of heavenly" meaning without sin (spiritual), immortal, glorified.
The above section is contra-NT.
The human body is mortal (subject to death) with or without Christ. It is the result of Adam's sin (Ro 6:23).

The following section is likewise contra-NT, including the personal interpretation of the prophetic riddle (Nu 12:8) of Isaiah.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Agreed, but so that @GDL doesn't complain about me cheering only, I want to ask an explanation, not just of @Clare73 but of @Davy , @timothyu , @Trivalee , @ViaCrucis , or anyone —Why did Christ, after his resurrection, say not to touch him yet, because he had not yet returned to the Father? And, is the question relevant to this discussion?
 
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