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Are these data showing that creationism is hurting Christianity?

Assyrian

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A metaphor:

Stage 1: The Scripture says: 1+1 may not = 2. A kid learned that in a church, and believed it. This is the so-called stumbling block.
Stage 2: Then the kid goes to school and learned 1+1 = 2 beyond of any doubt. So the kid left the church.
Stage 3: After the kid learned and became a mathematician, he starts to appreciate that 1+1 is, after all, not necessary 2. So he goes back to the church. (for those who are not becoming mathematicians, they may or may not go back)

Most young people who learned some sciences at the undergraduate level and left church, are in stage 2 of the metaphor. God's chosen people will reach stage 3 and become creationists.

That is why creationists will decrease in number, but will always exist.
And yet the higher the level of education, the fewer creationists you find. There simply isn't a level of education where people suddenly realise creationism was right all along. It is however possible to hang out at an 'ain't necessarily so' along the way. But having been a creationist and then spent a long time with fending off science with an 'ain't necessarily so', I can tell you it ignores an awful lot of 'very clearly is'. Much better finding the metaphors in scripture.
 
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If you don't think that they thought that Adam and Eve were not historical figures, then what were their thoughts on the origins of humanity at that time? They didn't think there was an original 2 people made by God?
They certainly believed God created the human race, but if they interpreting Adam and Eve figuratively, then it is likely they figurative meaning of the text was a lot more important to them than any literal meaning. It is clearly important to you, that doesn't mean they saw it the same way.
I'll respond to more of your post later, but for now I'd like a clearer response to my question (though maybe my question needs rephrasing). I know that Paul believed God created us, but while you keep insisting he didn't believe in a literal Adam, what I want to know is what else would he have believed in? How does he think God made us?
 
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gluadys

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I'll respond to more of your post later, but for now I'd like a clearer response to my question (though maybe my question needs rephrasing). I know that Paul believed God created us, but while you keep insisting he didn't believe in a literal Adam, what I want to know is what else would he have believed in? How does he think God made us?

I've been thinking about this for some time. I think it helps to remember that Paul was born and raised in a Greek-speaking city (Greek was probably his first language) and even if he didn't participate much in non-Jewish circles, he could not have avoided learning some Greek philosophy. In fact, much Greek philosophy had already influenced the thinking of many Jewish teachers over the previous two centuries.

There is a key idea in Greek philosophy that he may have picked up on: the Platonic concept of the "idea" or "form" (In Greek, 'idea' means 'form') Paul used the word 'form' of Christ in Philippians when he says "though he was in the form of God ....[he] emptied himself and took on the form of a slave ... and being found in human form..." He is writing in Greek to people who speak Greek and to whom the word 'form' meant, not mere shape, but the essential nature of something.

Recently I have been applying this to the serpent in the Garden of Eden. Was this an individual serpent? I think the story indicates that it was not; it was the form or idea "Serpent". Why do I say this?

If an individual serpent is being cursed for its role in the fall, there is no reason every serpent from then on should bear the same curse. Why would a change from walking to crawling in this one animal affect all other animals in its family?

But contained in the concept of "form" as it was used in 1st-century Greek is that each and every individual object, animal, plant, etc. is an instantiation of the one form which is what God originally made. Each bit of matter is what it is, because it participates in the form that makes it what it is. Each individual rabbit, or serpent or fig tree is made of different matter (i.e. material substance, stuff) but has the same nature as all other rabbits, serpents or fig trees, because there is only one form of a rabbit, one form of a serpent, one form of a fig tree and they all share that same form.

What happens to one individual cannot affect the form. But if the form itself is changed, that will change everything that shares that form.

I can't show that this kind of thinking is what Paul is using. But it is the kind of thinking that was taken for granted in Greek philosophy then, and in Jewish philosophy so far as it had been influenced by Greek philosophy. (It certainly took root in Christian philosophy right through to early modern times. One of the principle ongoing debates in the universities was about the nature of the forms. That there were forms was not an issue. What they were and how they acted was highly controversial.) Certainly when Paul uses the term, "form" this would indicate to his audience that they should be thinking in these terms.

So I think what we are getting in the story of the fall is not that an individual serpent was changed, but that the form of the serpent was changed. And since all serpents share in the same serpent-form, all serpents, not just that one, crawl on their belly instead of walking on legs.

Now this whole concept applies to humans as well. As we see, Paul spoke of Christ changing form in the incarnation. He doesn't explicitly use the term "form" to refer to Adam, but I think he is implying that. That is the only sense in which I can follow what he is saying when he refers to Christ as "second Adam" or "last Adam".

There is also a feature in Genesis itself that connects with this. In most of Genesis 1 or 2 the verbs describing God's creative activity are 'bara' (create) and 'asah' (make). But in Gen. 2:7 the verb is 'yatser' (form) Is this a hint that we are talking about more than shaping clay? Maybe the author is saying that what God made from dust was the essence, the nature, idea/form of humanity. God didn't just form a man. He formed Man. Adam is Man, or as a Platonist would say, the idea or form of humanity.

So then, what is the fall? When the original form of humanity exercised its autonomous free will (part of his nature, his form) the original form of humanity was changed---just as later, the form of the serpent was changed.

And since every one of us as individual human persons share in that same form/nature, when it was changed, so were we. That's the meaning of original sin. But then Christ comes in human form, but in a sinless human form. Jesus is an individual exemplar of a new human form--a second Adam or form of humanity. And through him we all get the chance to exchange our old Adam for the new Adam.

Was the Adam in the Garden also a historical individual exemplar of the Adam/human form? Could be. It doesn't really matter, though, whether he was or not. What matters is the change in the human form/nature/essence from its created innocence to its current sinful nature and potentially to the new glorified form that now exists in Christ.


Anyway, that's my take on it FWIW.
 
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gluadys,

I appreciate the response. It seems that a more thorough understanding of Greek and Hebrew would be required to get the meaning that you are trying to get out of it. Do most Christians in the world learn this advanced knowledge? Why would God write us a letter that requires this kind of understanding?

I guess to make my original question even simpler, when Paul read Genesis he may have used some kind of philosophical meaning as he read it, but would he have understood it to be a literal person? Would the immediate audience of that time have understood it to be a literal person?

And it certainly does matter, we could write off most of the miracles in the bible because they aren't necessary history for the philosophical meaning behind them.
 
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I would say that from a purely antitheistic perspective, Creationism (as with all strict Biblical literalism) is, excuse the metaphor, a Godsend. It's something antireligionists can point at and say, "Seriously, look at this. It's ridiculous." This is highly effective for those who are "on the fence".

This fact notwithstanding, even I, with more than a few antitheistic leanings, cannot but help but hope (and fight) for a rapid decline in all forms of Creationism. It's simply too harmful to scientific education and literacy. We may as well well teach alchemy in place of chemistry and astrology in place of astronomy. After all, they too reject the methodological naturalism or "anti-supernatural prejudice" that Creationists so deride in mainstream science.

And Creationism does not do its damage merely to the unintelligent or uneducated. Supernatural beliefs can infest even the most brilliant minds; think what Sir Isaac Newton may have accomplished had not so much of his time been utterly squandered in pursuit of astrology and alchemy and Biblical numerology.
 
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norswede

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I think we all need to be very careful in these times and cling to our faith despite anything that is thrown at us. Jesus said that in the last days there will be "a great deception", that we will "believe a lie" and that if possible "even the elect will be deceived". I believe that evolution is a big part of this great deception. People are taking for granted that one man's theories are correct just because they are told so. This just seems like a shift in faith to me. How many people on here have actually had access to carbon dating technology and have actually studied the DNA of man and chimps in a lab? How do you know for a fact that you are not being lied to by a group of atheists who will tell you anything to further their cause? The Big bang for instance is truly nothing more than a theory. It is the only explanation they have to replace creationism. Yet even though they can't prove it and it remains a theory to this day, they still teach it in schools along with the THEORY of evolution and mock anyone who believes differently. When you see how many times governments of the world including our own have lied to us in the past and how much propaganda is in the media, how can we put our faith in what they tell us over what people have believed to be true for thousands of years and if this earth is as old as they say it is and if there were other great civilizations out there in the past which many scientists believe there to have been, why did it take us until the last couple hundred years to figure this all out? And why do these atheists care so much about what we Christians believe and not about what people of other religions believe? I choose to believe the Bible and I will until my dying breath. I can feel God right down to my very soul and have had far more experiences with him than I have in some lab.
And remember that the Bible says that in the last days there will be a "Great falling away". A decrease in true Christians proves the validity of the Bible, it doesn't disprove it.
 
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laconicstudent

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I think we all need to be very careful in these times and cling to our faith despite anything that is thrown at us. Jesus said that in the last days there will be "a great deception", that we will "believe a lie" and that if possible "even the elect will be deceived". I believe that evolution is a big part of this great deception. People are taking for granted that one man's theories are correct just because they are told so. This just seems like a shift in faith to me. How many people on here have actually had access to carbon dating technology and have actually studied the DNA of man and chimps in a lab?

We have journals for that....

How do you know for a fact that you are not being lied to by a group of atheists

Because we aren't insanely paranoid, they aren't uniformly atheist (hello Out-group homogeneity bias - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ), there is no reason to.

who will tell you anything to further their cause?

What "cause" am I supposed to be furthering exactly?

The Big bang for instance is truly nothing more than a theory.

Like germ theory, neuron doctrine and gravitation.

It is the only explanation they have to replace creationism.

Because Creationism is groundless.

Yet even though they can't prove it

They have. You simply don't know what the word "theory" means in science.

and it remains a theory to this day, they still teach it in schools along with the THEORY of evolution

Yes, along with germ theory and electromagnetism. And?

and mock anyone who believes differently.

Not unreasonably either. ^_^

When you see how many times governments of the world including our own have lied to us in the past and how much propaganda is in the media, how can we put our faith in what they tell us over what people have believed to be true for thousands of years

Kind of like how people for thousands of years also believed diseases were caused by magic?

and if this earth is as old as they say it is and if there were other great civilizations out there in the past which many scientists believe there to have been, why did it take us until the last couple hundred years to figure this all out?

Well gee, I dunno, perhaps because we didn't have the technology to do so?

And why do these atheists care so much about what we Christians believe and not about what people of other religions believe?

Because being educated is a good thing, and being told you are a liar and your research data is a deception of Satan is actually offensive.

I choose to believe the Bible and I will until my dying breath. I can feel God right down to my very soul and have had far more experiences with him than I have in some lab.

This doesn't have anything to do with Evolution or Creationism funnily enough.

And remember that the Bible says that in the last days there will be a "Great falling away". A decrease in true Christians proves the validity of the Bible, it doesn't disprove it.

Ah yes, the good old True Christian™. Believing in Evolution does not mean one is not a Christian.
 
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Assyrian

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I'll respond to more of your post later, but for now I'd like a clearer response to my question (though maybe my question needs rephrasing). I know that Paul believed God created us, but while you keep insisting he didn't believe in a literal Adam, what I want to know is what else would he have believed in? How does he think God made us?
Even if it is literal we do not know how God created us, he may have literally taken a lump of clay, moulded it into human form, and breathed into its nostrils, but we still wouldn't how God did it. We can't do the same thing. We don't know how you could make inanimate clay into a living breathing human being. Why do you think this is important? Have you any reason to think it was important to first century Jews?

I don't actually insist Paul didn't believe in a literal Adam, just that we don't know if he did or not. Some Jews seem to have taken Adam and Eve literally, others, from widely different backgrounds like Philo and Josephus, didn't. Worth pointing out they didn't feel the need for precise details of how God created us, but that there was much more to learn from an allegorical account. What we have in Paul's writing are figurative interpretations of Adam. Now Paul may have been giving a figurative interpretation of an Adam he believe was historical, or he may have thought the account was written figuratively from the start, as Philo and Josephus did. We can't tell from what Paul wrote, just that he felt the figurative meaning was important.
 
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gluadys

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gluadys,

I appreciate the response. It seems that a more thorough understanding of Greek and Hebrew would be required to get the meaning that you are trying to get out of it. Do most Christians in the world learn this advanced knowledge? Why would God write us a letter that requires this kind of understanding?

In the first place, it was Paul writing the letter, not God. In the second place he wasn't writing it to us, he was writing it to 1st century Christians.

No, most Christians today don't get a thorough understanding of ancient Greek and Hebrew culture. But most of the Christians Paul was writing to did have that understanding.

I don't mean they were all highly educated. I mean this was popular culture at the time that anyone would be aware of. Just as anyone today is aware of concepts like molecules, cells, and DNA even if they never completed elementary school.

So, there is nothing especially difficult in the ideas. We just don't teach them in most bible study classes. Kind of silly. We provide people with lots of information from that time in history, maps, Jewish customs, information about plants and animals, some political history--all to help modern Christians understand the bible better, but we seldom discuss the intellectual and popular culture of the Greco-Roman world and how Christian teachers like Paul used it as a basis for their teaching.

So most people today (not just Christians) know little about these concepts unless they have taken at least an undergrad course in philosophy, and even then, they don't get much chance to connect what they learn in philosophy with what they learn in bible study.

I guess to make my original question even simpler, when Paul read Genesis he may have used some kind of philosophical meaning as he read it, but would he have understood it to be a literal person? Would the immediate audience of that time have understood it to be a literal person?

Do you mean "actual, historical" individual? (Don't get me started on the misrepresentation of "literal" to mean "real" or "actual" or "true". That is not what "literal" means and it causes endless confusion and difficulty when it is misused with those meanings.)

Yes, probably both Paul and his audience would understand the adam of Genesis to be an actual human person. But they would not have given much weight to that. They didn't revere the "literal" as many modern Christians are taught to. So it wouldn't faze them much if it were shown that there was no such individual.

Already in Jewish mystic philosophy of the time (so Paul would certainly have encountered it) the Genesis figure of Adam was being seen as Adam Kadmon, a sort of Jewish version of the Platonic form. Adam Kadmon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia An individual Adam is part of this concept, but his individuality existence is not particularly important. The reality of the heavenly primal man would be much more important to them.



And it certainly does matter, we could write off most of the miracles in the bible because they aren't necessary history for the philosophical meaning behind them.

I am not sure why it matters. What do you mean by "write off the miracles"? What do you mean by "miracles"? Just how important are they. Jesus refused to use miracles as credentials. He warns his disciples to be wary of false prophets and false messiahs who produce signs and omens. Such, he says, lead people astray.

There was a time when some Christian apologists held up biblical miracles as "proof" of its truth. But all religions have stories of miracles and miracle-workers, so what do they prove?

I am not saying the gospel writers made up anything, nor that they were especially gullible. But I wonder why you think miracles are important when Jesus himself was pretty cautious about them.
 
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miamited

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whew, I'm sure glad we were able to figure out that it's the teaching of creationism that's hurting christianity, there for a few thousand years I thought it was sin. Somebody better email or twitter Jesus and let him know that he was wrong.

God bless you guys.
In Christ, Ted
 
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mindlight

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Are these data showing that creationism is hurting Christianity?

The personal experiences of many of us here (and the results of simply reasoning) have suggested for a long time that creationism gravely hurts Christianity. This could be by either of two ways. One is by driving away Christians when they are raised creationist (and told that they have to be creationist to be Christian), and who then later find that evolution is supported by overwhelming evidence. These people find out that they’ve been lied to about evolution, and may extend that to think that their whole Christian upbringing was a lie, and so they become atheists. The other is by making it look to educated Christians like Christianity is increasingly the domain of evidence deniers.

Does any data support either of these? If the first were true, we’d expect the growing numbers of atheists come from the ranks of creationists, as creationists leave creationism and Christianity together. Call that hypothesis A. Hypothesis B would be the second scenario, where the ranks of Theistic evolution supporters would shrink as the atheists grew. So do the data support A, B or neither?


Well, as many of us know, the % of people who are creationist and the % of people supporting theistic evolution has been largely unchanged in the US for about 30 years.

The new numbers may show the first real change.

egqoo3sa4ksftdt5itigsg.gif


As you can see, the % creationists may have had a real drop, to 40% from ~45%, not just noise. At the same time, the numbers of TE’s is still constant, and the numbers of atheists has increased. This would seem, at first glance, to support hypothesis A – that creationism is driving Christians from Christianity to become atheists.

I’m sure there are other mechanisms that could give these same data. However, it is striking that after ~30 years of little movement in the creationist/TE numbers, we may now be seeing changes.

Papias


What hurts Christianity is the prevalence of lies in our culture and the willingness of Christians to buy into them and then communicate them to others. This spoils and taints our witness to nonChristians. Also Christians bickering over minor matters as if they were not united by a faith in the Living God.

Personally I am a Creationist but quite happy to accept TEs as brothers in Christ so long as they hold a literal view of Christs resurrection, and accept the Christian doctrines of Redemption, Incarnation and Trinity and that God in whatever way is the Creator and sustainer of the universe. I was once a TE myself. This discussion is not our main witness as Christians and some of us on this forum are in danger of majoring on minor matters.


Also there are different forms of Creationism and its important to distinguish between these. There is a sense in which both TEs and YECs are Creationists as we both believe God did it. Personally I think the ability to argue a coherent scientific case for Creationism is very difficult, if not impossible and I would be as sceptical of Creationist attempts to do so as I would of TEs or atheistic materialists to argue a coherent account of macroevolution and a old universe. The distance from events, and quality of the evidence being the main issues here. I am a Creationist because I believe this is what the scriptures say but the case for the how of that is much harder if not impossible to argue in my view. The central assumption is that God broadly did it the way He said he did it and that naturalistic assumptions and methodologies are problems rather than aids at this distance from the creation event and given the nature of Creation described in the Bible from what is unseen by a word of command unhelpful also (as they reflect a fundamental misunderstanding of how things came to be created). I believe that the rise of YECs has to do with the growing secularisation and broad acceptance of naturalistic assumptions in Western cultures and is a response to this neglect of the unseen realm. Altoften this response tries to use the same tainted secular tools and concepts to argue against the naturalistic approach sabotaging the credibility of what is said. That America has so many YECs is a statement about the healthiness of its culture in my view as it is evidence that people still have the freedom to think outside of the box there. In Europe state education curriculums have largely stamped out this freedom although some 20 % of people will still reject macroevolution as an explanation of origins. This is a significant % given the hold that evolution has on the state apparatus and education sector.

Having said that I think the evidence is that Creationism can be associated with the healthiest churches in the Western world as well as fast growing churches and islamic religious communities outside of it. The demographics of change do not bode well for the TE view globally.

This survey was interesting showing where in the Western world TE views were most prevalent and seems to indicate to me that countries with the worst problems spiritually often held these views. The Turkish survey was interesting as people sometimes forget that most Muslims reject evolution as an account of their origins.

File:Views on Evolution.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Regarding your links there are ups and downs in peoples views all the time and I am not sure these numbers really say very much and a difference of 5% is really not that significant over a period of decades. In the C18th the Anglican church in England was entirely liberal and the next century it was very conservative and in the twentieth century it degenerated in´to liberal views once more. These things change all the time. One can also wonder how many people who say they are Christians for the survery actually are and how you could measure that.

On a personal level I find people are mainly shocked when they find I am a Creationist cause they had an impression before that that I was actually quite bright. In Europe Creationism is associated in the popular mind with a dumb unthinking fundamentalism. When I explain my views some react strongly against (but many of these enjoy having religious discussions with me and continually come back for more) and some move to a position of agnosticism. I think the articulation really only confirms positions that people had already adopted instinctively and the articulation of these discussions allows people to clarify this in their own minds. Having adopted these positions they then have to live with them and its then more likely they will see the full implications of what holding them means. So the long term impact of this witness should be assessed over years rather than just on peoples first impressions. Personally I believe the gospel while obviously Good News should also be a shock and rebuke to those who have not considered that they might be sinners and have lived their lives in defiance or ignorance of the God who made them. Too many people in the church think that we should never hurt unbelievers with truthful statements offered in tough love. The fact is they are all going to hell unless they repent and accept Christ- that is a very shocking statement to someone who has never considered the possibility before.
 
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Yes, probably both Paul and his audience would understand the adam of Genesis to be an actual human person. But they would not have given much weight to that. They didn't revere the "literal" as many modern Christians are taught to. So it wouldn't faze them much if it were shown that there was no such individual.
This is the point, it was written with a mindset that Adam was a historical person, that he was the person that sin entered the world through (him and Eve). This grasping at straws that I hear from the TDs where you guys try desperately to relate figurative interpretations to Paul's mindset are almost heretical. You are forcing your own interpretation onto it, calling it objective, then labelling everyone else as having a personal, narrow interpretation of scripture.

Even while you can point to some early theologians who may have understood it figuratively, I think it's safe to say that almost all Christians throughout history have understood that Adam and Eve are actual people. Of course it didn't seem like a historical Adam was a big deal to Paul, because it wasn't an issue for them. It's not like he needed to make a footnote to the 21st century readers to let them know his thoughts on Adam. He knew that his audience at that time accepted a historical Adam and that that's how they would have read it.

If you're more interested in bolstering false doctrine to satisfy your own disposition let me know now so I can stop wasting time. Only the Holy Spirit can speak to some people.
 
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Papias

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Actually Thinking wrote:
This is the point, it was written with a mindset that Adam was a historical person, that he was the person that sin entered the world through (him and Eve). This grasping at straws that I hear from the TDs where you guys try desperately to relate figurative interpretations to Paul's mindset are almost heretical.

It would help to be aware of what those in the discussion are actually saying. One common TE position (and the one I hold, along with literally millions of others, including whole churches) is that there WAS a literal, first person, Adam. He was a member of a community, and was the first person in the ape to human gradual change.

After all, there had to be a first human, if there weren't humans 5 million years ago, and there are humans today. Understanding how populations interbreed makes it obvious that all humans today are descended from him. Original sin did enter the human race though him, because he was the first to be developed to the point of being able to conceptualize God, and hence to be able to rebel against God.

The idea of Adam as a real, single, historical person, who brought about original sin, and who is the literal ancestor of all humans alive today, is fully compatible with, and an important part, for some, of theistic evolution.

Myself and others have posted this so many times that it is tiring to have to post it again.

It would actually seem that actually thinking is actually saying that the Pope is actually almost heretical. :priest:

Papias
 
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It would help to be aware of what those in the discussion are actually saying. One common TE position (and the one I hold, along with literally millions of others, including whole churches) is that there WAS a literal, first person, Adam. He was a member of a community, and was the first person in the ape to human gradual change.
I thought populations evolved, not individuals? :scratch:

After all, there had to be a first human, if there weren't humans 5 million years ago, and there are humans today. Understanding how populations interbreed makes it obvious that all humans today are descended from him. Original sin did enter the human race though him, because he was the first to be developed to the point of being able to conceptualize God, and hence to be able to rebel against God.
Then the context of the creation story with the garden, Eve, and the serpent becomes meaningless. Do you also think that one of his sons committed the first murder? Wouldn't that also have to be Eve's son? Doesn't evolution teach that the common male and female ancestors lived at different times?


The idea of Adam as a real, single, historical person, who brought about original sin, and who is the literal ancestor of all humans alive today, is fully compatible with, and an important part, for some, of theistic evolution.
But it contradicts the events in Genesis. Where was Eve when this primate committed the first sin?


Myself and others have posted this so many times that it is tiring to have to post it again.
Well I'm new here. Maybe you could have a post that you just refer back to so that you don't have to keep retyping it.


It would actually seem that actually thinking is actually saying that the Pope is actually almost heretical. :priest:
The pope is just a person, he can misunderstand the bible just like anybody else. He may even have more political motivation to do so, but that's a discussion for another forum.
 
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gluadys

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Even while you can point to some early theologians who may have understood it figuratively, I think it's safe to say that almost all Christians throughout history have understood that Adam and Eve are actual people.

And almost all Christians throughout history understood that the sun actually moves across the sky while the earth remains firm in one place.

Vox popularum doesn't decide what is objectively true then or now.




Of course it didn't seem like a historical Adam was a big deal to Paul, because it wasn't an issue for them. It's not like he needed to make a footnote to the 21st century readers to let them know his thoughts on Adam.

Exactly. I agree entirely.
We can't expect Paul to deal with issues that only arise out of knowledge he could not be aware of.
The fact is, we don't know what Paul's thoughts on a historical Adam would be if he had knowledge of the fossil and genetic background that we have.
So nobody can claim Paul is on "their side".
His thoughts on the historicity of Adam mean nothing in light of current information about early human origins.

Same goes for the assumptions of most Christians throughout history, prior to the late 19th century. Just as their assumptions about the mechanics of the solar system don't carry any weight if they lived and died before Copernicus published. Whether the sun moved around the earth or vice versa wasn't an issue until then. The question of what theory the evidence supported was not an issue until then. And the question of what it means for Christian belief when the evidence points to a conclusion contrary to what was previously assumed doesn't become an issue until then.

Whether it is important that Adam be a historical individual is not an issue until we have a theory which may (not does) put that history in doubt. And it is only the views of Christians who actually have to grapple with that issue that are relevant.



He knew that his audience at that time accepted a historical Adam and that that's how they would have read it.

Precisely. But that doesn't tell us anything about whether we should accept the same view.

You are forcing your own interpretation onto it,

Not at all. I am agreeing with you every step of the way as to how Paul and his audience interpreted Adam. What I am pointing out is that although Paul probably assumes Adam is a historical individual, he doesn't make that part of his theology about Adam and Christ as second Adam.

I expect if we could bring Paul back, show him the evidence for human evolution, and even suggest there never was a historical, individual Adam, he would say: well, that really doesn't change my argument at all.

And then, of course, there is also the fact that an evolutionary origin for humanity does not imply that Adam was not a historical individual. Many who are theistic evolutionists agree that the Adam in the garden was historical. Obviously there really did need to be a first person who was fully human, fully cognizant of his Creator, fully capable of making a deliberate choice of obedience or disobedience. And there really did need to be a first person who chose disobedience.

So evolution does not imply the non-historicity of Adam. But (as in the first century) it makes it a non-issue. Paul's argument of first man and last man is valid whether or not Adam is historical. The evidence for human evolution is valid whether or not Adam is historical.

So what is the point of bickering about it? What is the point of judging another's faith on the issue? What is the point of becoming insulting, as you did in closing your post?
 
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Papias

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Mindlight, I appreciate the thoughtful response. Of course I agree with some parts and not others, but a few parts I think are worth a comment:

Mindlight wrote:

Also Christians bickering over minor matters as if they were not united by a faith in the Living God.

Yes. Mark, among other creationists here, has stated that creationism is essentially important for core Christian doctrines (and he has a thread on it too). Can you show a TE here who has said as much?

Personally I am a Creationist but quite happy to accept TEs as brothers in Christ so long as they hold a literal view of Christs resurrection, and accept the Christian doctrines of Redemption, Incarnation and Trinity and that God in whatever way is the Creator and sustainer of the universe.

Agreed, and will also add that I'm quite willing to accept YE and other creationists, as long as they accept TE's, and don't pull the "Christianer than thou" line.

There is a sense in which both TEs and YECs are Creationists as we both believe God did it.
Yes, that's why many TE's prefer the label "Evolutionary Creationist".

Personally I think the ability to argue a coherent scientific case for Creationism is very difficult, if not impossible and I would be as sceptical of Creationist attempts to do so as I would of TEs or atheistic materialists to argue a coherent account of macroevolution and a old universe.

I think we'll agree to disagree on that one, because the evidence overwhemlingly supports the consensus view of evolution, but I'm fine with disagreeing - as we agreed above, it's not the most important point.

This survey was interesting showing where in the Western world TE views were most prevalent and seems to indicate to me that countries with the worst problems spiritually often held these (theistic evolution) views. The Turkish survey was interesting as people sometimes forget that most Muslims reject evolution as an account of their origins.

File:Views on Evolution.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Really? What data are you basing that on? I've seen data from many different sources that show that an increase in the creationist percentage is often (very loosely) correlated with an increase in teen promiscuity, teen abortions, murder rates, and so on. It seems to me that a healthy spirituality would make all those go down, right?

You don't need to take my word for it, of course. Use the data you linked to above (which shows that the US has higher % creationism than Britain, France, Canada, and Sweden), and then the teen promiscuity data from here:
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/eurosynth_rpt.pdf
pregnancy, number of abortions here:
Compare Birth Rates, Abortion Rates and Number of Partners (washingtonpost.com)

Murder data:
Country .............Murder Rate.......% Creationist
US ................ 6.8.....................40
France ..........1.6............................18
Britain ......... 2.............................25
Canada ........1.8..............................22
Sweden ........ 2.7...........................18


All these would seem to indicate to me that creationism leads to an unhealthy spirituality, if any conclusion is to be drawn. Surely you don't see teen sex and murder as indications of a healthy spirituality? Or are you saying that Islam is a healthy spirituality?

That's a big topic that probably deserves it's own thread.....


Regarding your links there are ups and downs in peoples views all the time and I am not sure these numbers really say very much and a difference of 5% is really not that significant over a period of decades.

Fair enough. That is, after all, what I was asking in the OP. Thanks for your answer to it.

Papias
 
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Mallon

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Murder data:
Country .............Murder Rate.......% Creationist
US ................ 6.8.....................40
France ..........1.6............................18
Britain ......... 2.............................25
Canada ........1.8..............................22
Sweden ........ 2.7...........................18


All these would seem to indicate to me that creationism leads to an unhealthy spirituality, if any conclusion is to be drawn.
I'd hesitate to draw a causal influence of creationism on murder rates and other "unhealthy" activities, though I wouldn't be surprised if there were some underlying cause that describes the correlation you just posted. Anyone have any ideas? I've also read that fundamentalist states tend to have the highest divorce rates.
 
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Papias

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Mallon wrote:
I'd hesitate to draw a causal influence of creationism on murder rates and other "unhealthy" activities, though I wouldn't be surprised if there were some underlying cause that describes the correlation you just posted.

Yes, that's why I said "very loosely correllated", and didn't say it was causative. To be more clear, I agree also that if there is a link, it's more likely in the form of both being causally connected to something else, like ignorance, dysfunctional families, poor education, poverty, or something like that. You and I have already noticed that creationism appears to be negatively correllated to writing ability........

Papias
 
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Papias

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AT wrote:

Originally Posted by Papias
It would help to be aware of what those in the discussion are actually saying. One common TE position (and the one I hold, along with literally millions of others, including whole churches) is that there WAS a literal, first person, Adam. He was a member of a community, and was the first person in the ape to human gradual change.

I thought populations evolved, not individuals?
scratch.gif




Right, but as beneficial mutations arise and then then spread, any arbitrary line between (non-human) ape and human will have to be crossed at some point, when a transitional ape is born with just one more mutation, pushing it over the line. Make sense?

Then the context of the creation story with the garden, Eve, and the serpent becomes meaningless.

No, they don't become meaningless - they become metaphors. There are plenty of metaphors in both the old and new testaments, and they are very meaningful - as metaphors. For instance, in Exodus, God himself says that he bore the Jews out of Egypt "on eagle's wings". I hope we both recognize that as a metaphor, and that the Jews didn't fly out of Egypt like Bilbo Baggins in The Hobbit.

You also, I'm sure, recognize the metaphors in the Garden story. For instance, it is a metaphor that Satan tempted Eve. Satan is never mentioned in the story - which only says it was a talking snake, not Satan. Unless you are going to reject the idea that Satan was behind the fall, and instead claim that it was a literal talking snake (which is what Genesis literally says), then you are agreeing that it's metaphorical.


Do you also think that one of his sons committed the first murder? Wouldn't that also have to be Eve's son?

Sure, that could be literally true. See below.


Doesn't evolution teach that the common male and female ancestors lived at different times?

Evolution teaches that the MOST RECENT common male and female anscestors (MRCA) lived at different times. There are plenty of other common ancestors that lived before them. To see this, think of the most recent female ancestor (called "mitochondrial eve"). Her mother was also certainly a common ancestor of all humans, right? It's clear that by the description of Adam and Eve given in my earlier post, that the Biblical Adam and Eve lived many thousands of years before the MRCAs which are confusingly called "Adam" and "Eve" in science.

But it contradicts the events in Genesis. Where was Eve when this primate committed the first sin?

Well, it means that some of the things are metaphors, but that's hardly controversial. For instance, the "tree of life" is a metaphor, not a real tree, as is the flaming sword. We agree that Satan biting Jesus's foot is a metaphor, right? That's what the literal text says too.

Eve could of been right there - remember, she's not the MRCA Eve of science.
Well I'm new here.


Sorry for being snippy. :sorry:

Welcome to CF!


The pope is just a person, he can misunderstand the bible just like anybody else. He may even have more political motivation to do so, but that's a discussion for another forum.

Yes. I would think that the Pope is more theologically informed than the average person on earth, but I agree that it's a wider discussion, and I'm not asking you to agree with the authority of my Pope.

Papias
 
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mindlight

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Yes. Mark, among other creationists here, has stated that creationism is essentially important for core Christian doctrines (and he has a thread on it too). Can you show a TE here who has said as much?

The most important part of the doctrine of Creation is the acceptance of God as the Creator and Sustainer of the Universe. But to hold a false hermeneutic on scriptures here in order to justify naturalistic assumptions and conclusions can erode the credibility of interpretations and lead to misunderstandings else where in scripture.

Really? What data are you basing that on? I've seen data from many different sources that show that an increase in the creationist percentage is often (very loosely) correlated with an increase in teen promiscuity, teen abortions, murder rates, and so on. It seems to me that a healthy spirituality would make all those go down, right?

You don't need to take my word for it, of course. Use the data you linked to above (which shows that the US has higher % creationism than Britain, France, Canada, and Sweden), and then the teen promiscuity data from here:
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/eurosynth_rpt.pdf
pregnancy, number of abortions here:
Compare Birth Rates, Abortion Rates and Number of Partners (washingtonpost.com)

Murder data:
Country .............Murder Rate.......% Creationist
US ................ 6.8.....................40
France ..........1.6............................18
Britain ......... 2.............................25
Canada ........1.8..............................22
Sweden ........ 2.7...........................18


All these would seem to indicate to me that creationism leads to an unhealthy spirituality, if any conclusion is to be drawn. Surely you don't see teen sex and murder as indications of a healthy spirituality?

This really proves nothing at all and a closer analysis would be needed of all these correlations and would be unlikely to yield much that would be truly helpful.

My view is that the more closely the church models Jesus Christ to the world- the more powerful its witness but so also the more powerful the reactions against it. So good and evil both become more intense. Since this battle extends into the lives of Christian believers I would expect the most interesting and dangerous activity to be going on the fringes of the Christian community e.g. with new converts or people just about to convert or with nominal Christians who suddenly have their faiths tested by some real pain. Since creationism is not an essential doctrine of the Christian faith I doubt if it is a significant factor here. The top reasons for murder would probably include domestic arguments, money, love, drugs, alcohol, food, housing, and revenge.

My direct experience is that mature Christian communities have lower murder, divorce, teenage pregnancy rates etc. But growing churches often have all these problems in spades as they are mainly populated by people for whom the battle is in practice still being fought. Also what I would call nominal Christian communities where people adopt the label for social reasons are often no different from the secular world in actual practice. Statisticians could never measure this in practice cause they would never agree on what constituted a genuine or mature Christian.

Or are you saying that Islam is a healthy spirituality?

Er no but one thing that is interesting is the apparent connection between a fundamentalist Creationist view and the quantity of breeding going on. So maybe Creationists have more babies if Muslims and fundamentalists are anything to go by.

Shall the Religious Inherit the Earth?, By Eric Kaufmann - Reviews, Books - The Independent
 
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