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Are there transitional fossils?

Justatruthseeker

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I have not ignored the definition of species. I have been addressing it with you. I have explained to you that it is a complex concept, and is not always clear where the species dividing line is.

Here is the Webster definition of species;

1a : kind, sortb :
a class of individuals having common attributes and designated by a common name; specifically : a logical division of a genus or more comprehensive class
confessing sins
inspecies and in numberc : the human race : human beings —often used with the survival of the species
in the nuclear aged (1) : a category of biological classification ranking immediately below the genus or subgenus, comprising related organisms or populations potentially capable of interbreeding, and being designated by a binomial that consists of the name of a genus followed by a Latin or latinized uncapitalized noun or adjective agreeing grammatically with the genus name
(2) : an individual or kind belonging to a biological speciese :
a particular kind of atomic nucleus, atom, molecule, or ion​

That is consistent with everything I have been saying.

What is your definition of species?
Except you are ignoring the part you don't want to admit to.

"comprising related organisms or populations potentially capable of interbreeding,"

They aren't even "potentially capable" they are interbreeding right in front of their faces, so I am glad to see you accept science and agree they are one species.

If you don't you are ignoring the very definition you say you accept.
 
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PsychoSarah

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Don't give me that hogwash line. Every 5 posts someone is claiming "but they all agree...." 99.9% of all scientists once believed the Milky-Way was the entire universe.
It's a garbage argument to make, no matter who says it. Since the reasons behind a consensus are variable, a consensus itself is pretty meaningless. If a consensus occurred because evidence supported a conclusion, then it is the evidence that is worthwhile, not the consensus itself.

Name a single instance of me using that argument, and I'll slap myself for it. Heck, I'll make a collection of links to every time I've made the mistake that you find.


They had the claimed observational evidence and the math to prove it at the time and everyone jumped on that bandwagon too. We once had a belief the earth was the center of the solar system, with observational support and again, the math to prove it.


Why just a few years ago they claimed Coelacanth was without a doubt a transitional species between fish and amphibian. Untill we found them alive, tested their DNA and observed that they didn't even walk on the ocean floor.
Ancient coelacanth species may have still been transitional in that regard, just probably not whatever ones were the ancestors of the modern species. I wouldn't know the specifics of that. Although, personally, I would think that lung fishes were more obvious transitions for water to land, and later genome studies suggested as much. Hahaha, that's quite a derpy moment, in my opinion.

They had no problem parroting that as fact for 50 years. Sure, they sincerely believed they were right, all of the paleontologist and biologist swore it was correct. But every single one of them were wrong.
Demonstrated to be wrong through the same scientific process you appear to be bashing. Our ability to observe in and of itself improves with time. When Miasma theory of disease was prevalent, people were incapable of observing viruses and bacteria infect cells, so they had to work with what they could see. Each subsequent improvement of our understanding of the world is more heavily evidenced than the last, but that doesn't mean that the previous theories were entirely without merit. After all, Miasma theory of disease encouraged people to stay away from bad odors caused by rotting food, corpses, and swamps. Since those things do harbor pathogens (mosquitoes hang out in swampy areas), staying away from them was legitimately helpful in preventing disease. However, since the proposed cause of disease was less accurate to reality than modern germ theory, it also resulted in entirely useless practices, such as trying to prevent disease by surrounding oneself with things that smelled good. Yet, it was overall an improvement upon doing nothing.

That's why no one views any given theory as perfect, because there is always room for improvement, to make the theory a more accurate representation of reality. Perfection is never the goal, nor will perfection ever be reached.



Where did you get any of that from my statement the Bible warned me false teachers would arise so not even to trust the say so of my leaders but to search diligently?
I didn't, I was just giving an example of an inaccuracy about evolution prevalent in these forums.

The only ones persistently teaching false information seems to be the evolutionists.
Oh really? Then breed striped goats from non striped goats using the biblical method. Evolutionary theory would imply that attempting that would yield no such results in your lifetime, but you view that as complete bunk, so it should work in just 1 generation with all resulting offspring being striped according to the bible. If you actually do it, and a single goat in the first generation has stripes, I will be extremely impressed. If every goat in that generation born of non-striped parents has stripes, I'll convert immediately.

Sincerely, though, I have seen professional creationists lie all the time. Quote mining, faked fossils, faked science degrees, etc. Most commonly, I see inaccuracies about evolution itself in their claims. For example, that Lucy, an Australopithecus afarensis fossil, is the only transitional fossil relevant to humans ever found, or that it's the only fossil of that species ever found, or that she was a large chimpanzee. None of those claims are true in the slightest, since hundreds of different fossils for that species have been discovered (if I recall correctly, the most of any fossil species relevant to recent human evolution), and at least 6 fossil species aside from our own are put into the same genus as us, and 3 besides Lucy's species share her genus. Additionally, the skeleton definitively doesn't belong to a chimp, as the hip and foot structures are entirely different and a much closer match to humans than chimps http://anthro.palomar.edu/hominid/images/pelvis_and_feet.gif . The fossil is also definitely not human, check out this skull recreation (grey marks what covers the bones found in a specific fossil, the gaps reconstructed by comparisons with other fossils from this species. https://boneclones.com/images/store-product/product-1421-main-main-big-1415043044.jpg )


For 50 years thay falsely declared as fact the Coelacanth was transitional. For 50 years we told you you were full of it. For 50 years you degraded and disrespected every creationists, telling them they didn't understand science. Turned out the shoe was on the wrong foot.
-_- ancient coelacanths were still transitional, just not in the way previously thought to be most likely. The modern species is not the same as those ancient species, you know. Furthermore, lungfish and coelacanths are both lobe-finned fishes of ancient ancestry with fairly close ancestry to each other, and both are more closely related to tetrapods than any other fish are. It is true that, without DNA, getting a precise distinction of which was more closely related would have been near impossible. Hence why "transitional" is a term for fossil species first depicting distinct traits present in modern species or extinct species that appeared later on. One can't literally trace a lineage from fossils most of the time, since DNA decays, and the majority of species that have ever existed haven't left behind any fossils for us to find.

Additionally, no creationist was claiming that lungfish were the closer to modern tetrapods than coelacanths. The creationist proposal is way far off from that. It's like a child making fun of another child for spelling the word cat as "kat" when the child poking fun spelled it as 374tyyurigygtrfig. Which kid really doesn't know how to spell?

All evolution theory is, is error after uncorrected error after uncorrected error.
-_- the error you mention within your own post IS a corrected error, what are you even talking about? If it had never been corrected, then people would still be claiming that coelacanths were more closely related to tetrapods than lungfish. It used to be commonly thought that large brains developed in our evolutionary line before walking upright, until fossil evidence contradicted that way of thinking and it had to be changed. Our understanding of evolutionary relationships has changed drastically, especially recently as more and more species have their genomes sequenced.

But they of course are correct this time, right? But then that's what you believed last time too.
Correct? Since when was the original claim fully wrong? There was reason behind it, and the evidence to support coelacanths being the most closely related to tetrapods wasn't entirely invalidated by that DNA comparison. Now they are in the number 2 spot instead of the number 1 spot. ONE aspect of the evolutionary relationship previously upheld was found to be wrong, the rest was not. The lack walking on fins thing, by the way, is a behavioral observation of the modern species. The ancient ones might have done it, or maybe not. Kinda irrelevant, since lungfish clearly do it.

What I am trying to say is that the road of progress will never be perfect. The capacity for one side of a debate to admit error doesn't make the other side of the debate more valid, especially when the evidence for the error doesn't support that position at all. Lungfish being more closely related to tetrapods than coelacanths doesn't do jack squat for creationism.
 
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doubtingmerle

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Justatruthseeker,

I still don't see you post a definition of "species". Somehow you insist there is a cast in stone definition, but you don't to give us that definition. Why not?

There is no fixed definition of "species". Previously I quoted this to you

Today, most biologists are more interested in understanding the process of speciation than in trying to find a strict species definition that is always applicable. Speciation is usually a gradual process, so it is not unusual to encounter populations that are only partly reproductively isolated. This means that individuals from diverged lineages may still exchange genes to a limited degree, perhaps even to the extent that they will merge again. These situations are challenging for both the biological species concepts and lineage species concepts. Although some people may wish for a black-and-white criterion for defining species, this is unrealistic. By analogy, imagine a population of maturing humans. Most individuals will be easily recognized as children or adults, but some will be difficult to categorize and these difficult individuals might be tagged differently by different people using different criteria (e.g., different physical characteristics, different measures of emotional maturity, etc.). Similarly, most individual birds or snails or mushrooms can be readily categorized as belonging to one species or another, but exceptions are not rare. What is a species? - Encyclopedia of Life
And so biologists recognize that the concept of species is not fixed, is not cast in stone, is not always clear as to what a species is.

Here is a more exhaustive treatment of the subject.Species (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

But somehow, although you have been shown that biologists say it is a gray area, that it is not black and white, you insist it has to be black and white. Biologists disagree with you.




Ok, we are going to settle the issue once and for all. For the sake of this debate we will assume that Leptocyon is indeed the predecessor to the wolf species. we will assume it has been proven beyond all shadow of a doubt. You may have as many or as few transitional links between it and it's decendant the wolf. I will assume for this debate the number and forms are also beyond doubt.

We know for a fact that the decendant the Cocker Spaniel has gone through several transitional forms from its predecessor the wolf. See attached image provided by an evolutionary site.

Now we all understand that the decendant of the wolf, the Cocker Spaniel, despite having gone through several intermediary transitional forms, is of the same species as it's predecessor the wolf. This is indisputable as DNA evidence shows this to be simple fact.
OK, the dog is recognized as the same species as the gray wolf. Yes.
If we apply what we know is fact and using the same logic, then the wolf and Leptocyon, along with all the transitional forms between them, are also all of the same species.
Uh no, just because the dog descended from the Leptocyon would not make Leptocyon a dog. If you trace ancestors back far enough you come to a common ancestor with the weasel and mink. So then, by your logic, that would mean weasels, minks and dogs are all dogs. And if you kept going back, you come to a common ancestor with the cats. That would mean cats and dogs are the same species. If we allow an endless string of calling all animals a dog that ever mated with something we class as a dog and keep going back far enough, then all animals are of the species "dog". If evolution is true, then your definition defines everything as a dog.

So biologists do not accept your definition.
 
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doubtingmerle

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Which is as to be expected since water creatures were created first, then land animals then man.
Uh, you ignored most of my paragraph. Not only did I say fish were before land creatures, but I said trilobites were before fish, mammal-like reptiles were before mammals, etc. There is a whole chain of progression leading step by step to mammals and then to humans. Your simple statement in no way answers that.

Except there is no evidence anything evolved into anything. Each new order of life is separated by a global extinction, followed by the appearance of all new life forms fully formed that resemble not those that went previously. Just as after the sixth destruction, all new life will again be created to repopulate the earth. Such as a lion that eats straw, which will certainly not be the lion we know today.
Wow, this is old fashioned catastrophism, the idea that earth history followed the story in the geologic column, but instead of evolution occurring, there were a series of catastrophies that wiped out everything and then life was created again. This has been shown to be wrong a long time ago. At no time were all creatures wiped out. In each step up the geologic column, there are many animals that survive into the next period. And throughout each period, life on earth is gradually changing.
 
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doubtingmerle

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When Richard Leaky found the modern appearing skull KNM-ER 1470 well below the KBS tuff, the tuff was argon 40/argon 39 dated, fission-track dated, and dated by paleomagnetism dating. All agreed that the KBS tuff was 2.7 to 3.0 million years old.

Since belief in human evolution did not allow a date that old, those dates were rejected and instead dates that agreed with theory was instituted. You'll reject any dating method if the dates obtained don't agree with your pre conceived theory. Actual data is irrelevant, it will be conformed to theory, not theory to the data.
Uh no, you simply made up that this is the reason KNM-ER-1470 was dated as it was. From what I read, there was considerable question about the date of this fossil from the beginning until it was resolved by science.
 
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doubtingmerle

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Incorrectly regarded as separate species. And they were regarded as separate species from the moment they arrived not later after they "spread out", because Darwin incorrectly believed they were reproductively isolated.
What does any of this matter?

Again the issue is that a few finches flew to the Galapagos islands about 1.5 million years ago, and there diversified to fulfill the roles of many other birds. No finch on the mainland does what these birds do. This is what gave Darwin the hunch that species change with time.

You get hung up on whether we should call the 18 varieties of finches species or sub-species, but what is the big issue? The issue is that evolution occurred, regardless of what you call the end result.

I could care less when they arrived. They have been interbreeding since they arrived. Were never reproductively isolated and never underwent speciation.
The issue is that if they were just ordinary finches that flew to the island, then they had to go through significant evolution to produce all the varieties on the islands.

Again, science says a few ordinary finches arrived on the islands about 1.5 million years ago and evolved to fulfill all those roles.

How do you think it happened? Did all those varieties fly to the islands? Or were there 36 subspecies that flew there? Where did all those subspecies come from?Why do we find none of those exotic finches still back where they originated? Why are finches just plain finches everywhere else, but on the Galapagos, we see all these unique and special finches?

If you think it was ordinary finches that flew there, like I do, then do you think it was 1.5 million years ago? Or do you try to put it 4000 years ago. If you put it 4000 years ago, then there was immense evolution.

But I hear silence from you on this. This is the heart of the issue. Can you address it, please?


So since ecological niche is a valid reason, why don't we go ahead and call Joe who lives in the high rises of New York a separate species from Jim who is a hunter/gatherer on the plains in Nigeria? See where a free for all takes us?
Huh? Nobody said you can use any definition you want. That would only make confusion. Scientists try to be clear. If you make up definitions, you won't be clear. But the term species has a whole lot of gray area. It is OK to say the term "species" has gray areas and is subject to interpretation. It is wrong to make up anything you want and call it a species.
 
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doubtingmerle

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So then what reason would we have to conclude that the population of animals released from the ark and then rapidly diversifying would no come into stability with their environment which every animal population but man does?
The problem is the proposed rapid diversification, not the stability.

If there were only 2 Equus on the ark, then there had to be enormous evolution to provide all the genetic diversity of all the zebras, horses and donkeys in the next 2000 years from those two creatures.

If there were only 2 finches on the ark, then there had to be enormous evolution to provide all the genetic diversity on the Galapagos in 4000 years. It is that ridiculously fast evolution rate that is a problem.

If there were only 2 dogs on the ark, how can all those breeds of dogs evolve from 2 dogs in 4000 years?
 
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Jimmy D

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The problem is the proposed rapid diversification, not the stability.

If there were only 2 Equus on the ark, then there had to be enormous evolution to provide all the genetic diversity of all the zebras, horses and donkeys in the next 2000 years from those two creatures.

If there were only 2 finches on the ark, then there had to be enormous evolution to provide all the genetic diversity on the Galapagos in 4000 years. It is that ridiculously fast evolution rate that is a problem.

If there were only 2 dogs on the ark, how can all those breeds of dogs evolve from 2 dogs in 4000 years?

Actually he has addressed that..... magical super genomes!
 
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doubtingmerle

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Actually he has addressed that..... magical super genomes!
Ah, yes, when we insert "then a miracle happened" at the right part of the story, it all fits together.
 
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AV1611VET

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xianghua

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Should we find one, that either means that apes and mammals evolved a lot earlier than expected, or that this ape somehow came from somewhere else (popped into existance, came on a rocket from the planet of the apes, fell down a hole and ended up in an older layer, etc.) That would be huge news, and scientists would work to resolve the problem.

thanks. so a 70 my fossil of ape will not make any problem for evolution. as i said.



Why do the two need to be mutually exclusive? Why does "being designed" exclude "evolved"? Couldn't a creature have both evolved and been designed?

i already said its possible. but it will be a very odd design (that have no sceintific evidence). the problem is more about a natural evolution. do you believe in such evolution or not? lets discuss about it.


You have not proven that any creature was designed. But even if you had, that would not rule out evolution. That would not prove the theistic evolutionists here are wrong.

but it will falsified a natural evolution. right?
 
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Justatruthseeker

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It's a garbage argument to make, no matter who says it. Since the reasons behind a consensus are variable, a consensus itself is pretty meaningless. If a consensus occurred because evidence supported a conclusion, then it is the evidence that is worthwhile, not the consensus itself.

Name a single instance of me using that argument, and I'll slap myself for it. Heck, I'll make a collection of links to every time I've made the mistake that you find.






Ancient coelacanth species may have still been transitional in that regard, just probably not whatever ones were the ancestors of the modern species. I wouldn't know the specifics of that. Although, personally, I would think that lung fishes were more obvious transitions for water to land, and later genome studies suggested as much. Hahaha, that's quite a derpy moment, in my opinion.


Demonstrated to be wrong through the same scientific process you appear to be bashing. Our ability to observe in and of itself improves with time. When Miasma theory of disease was prevalent, people were incapable of observing viruses and bacteria infect cells, so they had to work with what they could see. Each subsequent improvement of our understanding of the world is more heavily evidenced than the last, but that doesn't mean that the previous theories were entirely without merit. After all, Miasma theory of disease encouraged people to stay away from bad odors caused by rotting food, corpses, and swamps. Since those things do harbor pathogens (mosquitoes hang out in swampy areas), staying away from them was legitimately helpful in preventing disease. However, since the proposed cause of disease was less accurate to reality than modern germ theory, it also resulted in entirely useless practices, such as trying to prevent disease by surrounding oneself with things that smelled good. Yet, it was overall an improvement upon doing nothing.

That's why no one views any given theory as perfect, because there is always room for improvement, to make the theory a more accurate representation of reality. Perfection is never the goal, nor will perfection ever be reached.




I didn't, I was just giving an example of an inaccuracy about evolution prevalent in these forums.


Oh really? Then breed striped goats from non striped goats using the biblical method. Evolutionary theory would imply that attempting that would yield no such results in your lifetime, but you view that as complete bunk, so it should work in just 1 generation with all resulting offspring being striped according to the bible. If you actually do it, and a single goat in the first generation has stripes, I will be extremely impressed. If every goat in that generation born of non-striped parents has stripes, I'll convert immediately.

Sincerely, though, I have seen professional creationists lie all the time. Quote mining, faked fossils, faked science degrees, etc. Most commonly, I see inaccuracies about evolution itself in their claims. For example, that Lucy, an Australopithecus afarensis fossil, is the only transitional fossil relevant to humans ever found, or that it's the only fossil of that species ever found, or that she was a large chimpanzee. None of those claims are true in the slightest, since hundreds of different fossils for that species have been discovered (if I recall correctly, the most of any fossil species relevant to recent human evolution), and at least 6 fossil species aside from our own are put into the same genus as us, and 3 besides Lucy's species share her genus. Additionally, the skeleton definitively doesn't belong to a chimp, as the hip and foot structures are entirely different and a much closer match to humans than chimps http://anthro.palomar.edu/hominid/images/pelvis_and_feet.gif . The fossil is also definitely not human, check out this skull recreation (grey marks what covers the bones found in a specific fossil, the gaps reconstructed by comparisons with other fossils from this species. https://boneclones.com/images/store-product/product-1421-main-main-big-1415043044.jpg )



-_- ancient coelacanths were still transitional, just not in the way previously thought to be most likely. The modern species is not the same as those ancient species, you know. Furthermore, lungfish and coelacanths are both lobe-finned fishes of ancient ancestry with fairly close ancestry to each other, and both are more closely related to tetrapods than any other fish are. It is true that, without DNA, getting a precise distinction of which was more closely related would have been near impossible. Hence why "transitional" is a term for fossil species first depicting distinct traits present in modern species or extinct species that appeared later on. One can't literally trace a lineage from fossils most of the time, since DNA decays, and the majority of species that have ever existed haven't left behind any fossils for us to find.

Additionally, no creationist was claiming that lungfish were the closer to modern tetrapods than coelacanths. The creationist proposal is way far off from that. It's like a child making fun of another child for spelling the word cat as "kat" when the child poking fun spelled it as 374tyyurigygtrfig. Which kid really doesn't know how to spell?


-_- the error you mention within your own post IS a corrected error, what are you even talking about? If it had never been corrected, then people would still be claiming that coelacanths were more closely related to tetrapods than lungfish. It used to be commonly thought that large brains developed in our evolutionary line before walking upright, until fossil evidence contradicted that way of thinking and it had to be changed. Our understanding of evolutionary relationships has changed drastically, especially recently as more and more species have their genomes sequenced.


Correct? Since when was the original claim fully wrong? There was reason behind it, and the evidence to support coelacanths being the most closely related to tetrapods wasn't entirely invalidated by that DNA comparison. Now they are in the number 2 spot instead of the number 1 spot. ONE aspect of the evolutionary relationship previously upheld was found to be wrong, the rest was not. The lack walking on fins thing, by the way, is a behavioral observation of the modern species. The ancient ones might have done it, or maybe not. Kinda irrelevant, since lungfish clearly do it.

What I am trying to say is that the road of progress will never be perfect. The capacity for one side of a debate to admit error doesn't make the other side of the debate more valid, especially when the evidence for the error doesn't support that position at all. Lungfish being more closely related to tetrapods than coelacanths doesn't do jack squat for creationism.

More cognitive dissonance at work. Let me see if I got this correct. Colecanth is not transitional in the way they believed, but even though you haven't any clue how or to what they are transitional to they are still transitional?

Sure making a lot of statements of fact for so many unknowns. But that's common in evolutionary religion.

I've got no problem at all with what you call transitional. Just as the Cocker Spaniel went through many transitional forms to get to its present state. It just remains the same species as its predecessor and all the transitionals is all.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Justatruthseeker,

I still don't see you post a definition of "species". Somehow you insist there is a cast in stone definition, but you don't to give us that definition. Why not?

There is no fixed definition of "species". Previously I quoted this to you

Today, most biologists are more interested in understanding the process of speciation than in trying to find a strict species definition that is always applicable. Speciation is usually a gradual process, so it is not unusual to encounter populations that are only partly reproductively isolated. This means that individuals from diverged lineages may still exchange genes to a limited degree, perhaps even to the extent that they will merge again. These situations are challenging for both the biological species concepts and lineage species concepts. Although some people may wish for a black-and-white criterion for defining species, this is unrealistic. By analogy, imagine a population of maturing humans. Most individuals will be easily recognized as children or adults, but some will be difficult to categorize and these difficult individuals might be tagged differently by different people using different criteria (e.g., different physical characteristics, different measures of emotional maturity, etc.). Similarly, most individual birds or snails or mushrooms can be readily categorized as belonging to one species or another, but exceptions are not rare. What is a species? - Encyclopedia of Life
And so biologists recognize that the concept of species is not fixed, is not cast in stone, is not always clear as to what a species is.

Here is a more exhaustive treatment of the subject.Species (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

But somehow, although you have been shown that biologists say it is a gray area, that it is not black and white, you insist it has to be black and white. Biologists disagree with you.





OK, the dog is recognized as the same species as the gray wolf. Yes.

Uh no, just because the dog descended from the Leptocyon would not make Leptocyon a dog. If you trace ancestors back far enough you come to a common ancestor with the weasel and mink. So then, by your logic, that would mean weasels, minks and dogs are all dogs. And if you kept going back, you come to a common ancestor with the cats. That would mean cats and dogs are the same species. If we allow an endless string of calling all animals a dog that ever mated with something we class as a dog and keep going back far enough, then all animals are of the species "dog". If evolution is true, then your definition defines everything as a dog.

So biologists do not accept your definition.

Ill accept the very definition you posted from Websters Dictionary.

What common ancestor? You don't have a common ancestor for any of your claimed evolutionary lineages.

I know you truly want to believe the canine species came from the same species that led to the mink, but you have nothing but supposition and leaps of faith in effort to try to sustain that fantasy belief.

And back to those finches that are mating right in front of their noses and your own posting of the definition of species.

Why are you letting people that clearly are not following their own scientific definitions try to tell you what science says? Clearly they can't follow their own scientific definitions and have entered the realm of pseudoscience.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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The problem is the proposed rapid diversification, not the stability.

If there were only 2 Equus on the ark, then there had to be enormous evolution to provide all the genetic diversity of all the zebras, horses and donkeys in the next 2000 years from those two creatures.

If there were only 2 finches on the ark, then there had to be enormous evolution to provide all the genetic diversity on the Galapagos in 4000 years. It is that ridiculously fast evolution rate that is a problem.

If there were only 2 dogs on the ark, how can all those breeds of dogs evolve from 2 dogs in 4000 years?

We got over 100 breeds of dogs in a mere 100 years.

But I like how you argued there should be trillions, then when I point out the fallacy of that argument change your stance 180 degrees and now try to imply there couldn't be a couple dozen breeds. I'm not quite sure what you want to argue, that there should be trillions or there can't be but a dozen different forms because of time constraints.

You claimed there should be trillions, then now claim there can't be a dozen. Even if you also admitted you understand population increases vary with time.

But since they had just left the Ark, they were not spread out yet and so had more contact and so diversified faster than they do today in the wild due to the vast distances separating each breed. And so what was two became three, and the three became five, and the five became seven, and as they began to spread each remained with its own and the vast distances led to isolation and the lines began to set. There really isn't any reason to wonder at it at all.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Ah, yes, when we insert "then a miracle happened" at the right part of the story, it all fits together.
You got enough of your own Miricles inserted at just the right spots to be talking about that. We only need one, you need at least half a dozen.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Actually he has addressed that..... magical super genomes!
I did address it, just two posts or so above this one. And no magical super genomes required, just what we know occurred with the wolf? I think it's you that need those magical super genomes that somehow just make DNA that never existed, even if all we have ever seen is the transcription of what already exists into new patterns.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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What does any of this matter?

Again the issue is that a few finches flew to the Galapagos islands about 1.5 million years ago, and there diversified to fulfill the roles of many other birds. No finch on the mainland does what these birds do. This is what gave Darwin the hunch that species change with time.

You get hung up on whether we should call the 18 varieties of finches species or sub-species, but what is the big issue? The issue is that evolution occurred, regardless of what you call the end result.


The issue is that if they were just ordinary finches that flew to the island, then they had to go through significant evolution to produce all the varieties on the islands.

Again, science says a few ordinary finches arrived on the islands about 1.5 million years ago and evolved to fulfill all those roles.

How do you think it happened? Did all those varieties fly to the islands? Or were there 36 subspecies that flew there? Where did all those subspecies come from?Why do we find none of those exotic finches still back where they originated? Why are finches just plain finches everywhere else, but on the Galapagos, we see all these unique and special finches?

If you think it was ordinary finches that flew there, like I do, then do you think it was 1.5 million years ago? Or do you try to put it 4000 years ago. If you put it 4000 years ago, then there was immense evolution.

But I hear silence from you on this. This is the heart of the issue. Can you address it, please?



Huh? Nobody said you can use any definition you want. That would only make confusion. Scientists try to be clear. If you make up definitions, you won't be clear. But the term species has a whole lot of gray area. It is OK to say the term "species" has gray areas and is subject to interpretation. It is wrong to make up anything you want and call it a species.

What part of interbreeding right in front of their noses did you find to be a "grey" area?

And supposedly the diversified due to the reproductive isolation that DNA tests showed never happened.

But I have asked repeatedly for you all to tell me which one of the seven processes of speciation led to their speciation, since clearly reproductive isolation as the claimed reason has been debunked as simple sloppy observation techniques.

No, evolution never occurred. They are all one species, have always been one species and will always be one species.

Diversification of varied forms is nothing but the simple exchange of genomes as we have emperical ly discovered through the canine species. They too are all one species, have always been one species and will always be one species.

Your thinking is flawed from the start from their refusal to follow the scientific definitions to the point where you can no longer distinguish between fact and fiction. What they teach has become pseudoscience from their refusal to accept scientific definitions.

I will ask again, what grey area did you find about their interbreeding right in front of their noses when that is the exact definition of species that you yourself posted as what you believe species to be?

All I see with talk of a grey area is double-talk in an attempt to avoid the very scientific definition you yourself posted and the only logical conclusion thereof. That their talk of them being separate species is pseudoscience because they ignored their own scientific definitions.

By your own argument of separated liniages, before coming back together, we should then classify the American Indian as a seperate species since they were reproductively isolated from the rest of the population for close to 10,000 years? And if no then why not since you claim we can apply that to finches separated a mere 10 years?
 
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Justatruthseeker

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And in an earlier post you asked if I agreed with AV that the horse and Zebra are the same species.

Now that we finally got you to post a definition of species that you say you accept, I most certainly agree with AV 100%.

Zorse
 
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