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Are there transitional fossils?

mark kennedy

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I just noticed he's blatantly copy-pasting his own posts. No wonder his initial reply in my comparative genomics thread was so nonsensical. It was just a copy-paste from this post this thread.

Wild.
You didn't say anything and that's typical. You offer a random link and just make a lot of personal remarks that have nothing to do with anything.
 
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mark kennedy

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I do remember he was fixated on human-brain evolution (his so-called "null hypothesis"). I don't remember the copy-paste stuff though. I guess it explains a few things.
Nothing about the comparative genetics and nothing about the fossil evidence. This tells me all I need to know about you.
 
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pitabread

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You didn't say anything and that's typical. You offer a random link and just make a lot of personal remarks that have nothing to do with anything.

You know that just copy-pasting posts from other threads is kinda weird, right? Especially when they don't necessarily have to do with the specific topic at hand (as in the thread I posted). It's basically spam at that point.
 
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mark kennedy

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You know that just copy-pasting posts from other threads is kinda weird, right? Especially when they don't necessarily have to do with the specific topic at hand (as in the thread I posted). It's basically spam at that point.
You haven't said anything and you are just looking for a chance to say something harsh about a creationist. Yet another typical evolutionist who has no real argument.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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You know that just copy-pasting posts from other threads is kinda weird, right? Especially when they don't necessarily have to do with the specific topic at hand (as in the thread I posted). It's basically spam at that point.
This is the point where he starts attacking you personally for not realizing how brilliant and devastating to evolution his posts are.
 
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pitabread

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You haven't said anything and you are just looking for a chance to say something harsh about a creationist. Yet another typical evolutionist who has no real argument.

Actually, I was hoping to have a discussion about the application of evolutionary biology as it pertains to comparative genomics methodologies. If you ever decide to address that, feel free to return to the other thread and maybe we can have a real conversation.

But posting off-topic cut 'n pastes really is just spamming the thread, so don't act surprised when people don't engage you on it.
 
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xianghua

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That pushes too far back, actually. Primates don't even appear until between 50-55 million years ago (primates being the predecessors of apes), so finding a 70 million year old ape fossil would hit the modern evolutionary model hard.

why? we can just say that we dont find yet the rest of the primates fossils.


but a rabbit fossil from the Precambrian would still disprove the theory entirely. Actually, finding a mammal fossil far older than any reptile would manage that, or a bird before reptiles.

not sure:

Precambrian rabbit - Wikipedia


"Philosopher Peter Godfrey-Smith doubted that a single set of anachronistic fossils, however, even rabbits in the Precambrian, would disprove the theory of evolution outright. The first question raised by the assertion of such a discovery would be whether the alleged "Precambrian rabbits" really were fossilized rabbits. Alternative interpretations might include incorrect identification of the "fossils", incorrect dating of the rocks, and a hoax such as the Piltdown Man was shown to be. Even if the "Precambrian rabbits" turned out to be genuine, they would not instantly refute the theory of evolution, because that theory is a large package of ideas"-


so if we will find a mammal fossil before the first reptile, we can say that reptiles evolved from mammals.
 
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PsychoSarah

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why? we can just say that we dont find yet the rest of the primates fossils.
Primate fossils can be kinda rare, so that is possible. However, just because an explanation could be made doesn't mean that it wouldn't hurt the evolutionary timeline; it would still have to change significantly. The reliability of a theory stands on the quality and quantity of the evidence in support of it compared to the evidence against it. Evolutionary theory has so much evidence in support of it, that it would be neigh impossible for any single piece of dissenting evidence to disprove it. I mean, dissenting evidence for the theory does exist, it's just not nearly strong enough or in high enough number to disprove the theory or demand significant revision at this time. The theory has been revised before. In fact, most scientific theories go through many revisions, especially when they start out.



not sure:

Precambrian rabbit - Wikipedia


"Philosopher Peter Godfrey-Smith doubted that a single set of anachronistic fossils, however, even rabbits in the Precambrian, would disprove the theory of evolution outright. The first question raised by the assertion of such a discovery would be whether the alleged "Precambrian rabbits" really were fossilized rabbits. Alternative interpretations might include incorrect identification of the "fossils", incorrect dating of the rocks, and a hoax such as the Piltdown Man was shown to be. Even if the "Precambrian rabbits" turned out to be genuine, they would not instantly refute the theory of evolution, because that theory is a large package of ideas"-
-_- well, duh, no single thing would likely be able to disprove the whole thing. However, a genuine rabbit fossil from the Precambrian would bring the evolutionary timeline to its knees, and require that the current ideas behind the mechanism behind species changing over time be severely revised or completely replaced.

I would like to note that the idea that species change over time is not what the theory claims, but the observation that the theory explains. Evolution as a theory isn't "species change over time and generations", it's "how species change over time and generations". Since we already observe that species change over time and generations, you can't really disprove that. At most, I suppose you could try to find limits on the degree of change or something.


so if we will find a mammal fossil before the first reptile, we can say that reptiles evolved from mammals.
No, genetics disproves that idea in the extreme. I'd say that the most likely conclusion to be made would be that reptiles still came before mammals and mammals evolved from them, it just happened way earlier than we thought, unless the fossil is found in the Precambrian. Then stuff gets wreaked.
 
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xianghua

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However, a genuine rabbit fossil from the Precambrian would bring the evolutionary timeline to its knees, and require that the current ideas behind the mechanism behind species changing over time be severely revised or completely replaced.

why? we can claim that mammals or mammal-like creature evolved twice. i doesnt see any limitation for evolution to evolve a similar creature twice. aka convergent evolution.

No, genetics disproves that idea in the extreme. I'd say that the most likely conclusion to be made would be that reptiles still came before mammals and mammals evolved from them, it just happened way earlier than we thought, unless the fossil is found in the Precambrian. Then stuff gets wreaked.

again: i doesnt see any problem to push back both reptiles and mammals. creatures are pushing back every time.

and how genetics disprove the claim that reptiles cant evolve from mammals?
 
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doubtingmerle

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why? we can claim that mammals or mammal-like creature evolved twice. i doesnt see any limitation for evolution to evolve a similar creature twice. aka convergent evolution.
Except we don't ever see the same creatures evolving twice. All mammals share the common genetic heritage of mammals. Would it be possible for a different reptile, over millions of years to develop mammary glands, have hair, and be warm blooded? Yes, that might be possible, but the result would not be a true mammal. The new creature would most likely obtain these features using different structures and different DNA. The odds that it would develop all the exact mutations needed to be like a mammal are so astronomical, it should be considered impossible.

The wing of a bird and the wing of a bat are examples of convergent evolution. Both needed a wing to fly with. But the wings they developed are very different. Now if the wing of the bat was structurally the same as the wing of a bird, that would present a big problem for evolution, since the odds of that happening by chance would be very great. But that is not what the evidence shows.

again: i doesnt see any problem to push back both reptiles and mammals. creatures are pushing back every time.
Sure, there are minor adjustments in the timetable as we learn more details. But the basic timetable has been known for decades, with very little changes.

You keep referring to some fictitious find that might significantly change the timetable, but you cannot seem to find an actual instance.

Can we switch away from alternate facts and zoom in on reality, please?

and how genetic disprove the claim that reptiles cant evolve from mammals?

To genetically evolve a reptile from a mammal would require many thousands of mutations, all exactly the right way. the odds against that are astronomical. But might it be possible for mammals to evolve some features similar to reptiles? Sure, given enough time. But it would not be a reptile.
 
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Astrophile

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Precambrian rabbit - Wikipedia


"Philosopher Peter Godfrey-Smith doubted that a single set of anachronistic fossils, however, even rabbits in the Precambrian, would disprove the theory of evolution outright. The first question raised by the assertion of such a discovery would be whether the alleged "Precambrian rabbits" really were fossilized rabbits. Alternative interpretations might include incorrect identification of the "fossils", incorrect dating of the rocks, and a hoax such as the Piltdown Man was shown to be. Even if the "Precambrian rabbits" turned out to be genuine, they would not instantly refute the theory of evolution, because that theory is a large package of ideas"-

The Precambrian lasted a very long time, just over 4000 million years in fact, so it would depend how far back in the Precambrian one found these fossil rabbits. One might accept fossil vertebrates (although hardly fossil mammals) in Upper (Late) Proterozoic rocks, but fossil vertebrates would be next to impossible in Lower (Early) Proterozoic rocks and completely impossible in Archaean or Hadean rocks.
 
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xianghua

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Except we don't ever see the same creatures evolving twice.

why not? eyes suppose to evolved about 50 times. so why not some mammals traits?


Would it be possible for a different reptile, over millions of years to develop mammary glands, have hair, and be warm blooded? Yes, that might be possible, but the result would not be a true mammal.

why not? if he have all those mammals traits then it will not be a mammal?


The new creature would most likely obtain these features using different structures and different DNA. The odds that it would develop all the exact mutations needed to be like a mammal are so astronomical, it should be considered impossible.

again: the same can be said for any complex trait that suppose to evolve by a convergent evolution. but in fact its happened according to evolution. also; there is also a different between mammals themself. and still scientists claiming that they evolved from a common mammal. so difference or similarity doesnt saying much.



Now if the wing of the bat was structurally the same as the wing of a bird, that would present a big problem for evolution, since the odds of that happening by chance would be very great.


the dorsal fin of both dolphin and ichthyosaur is looking very similar:

Ichthyosaur - Wikipedia

and still i doesnt see any problem for evolution.


You keep referring to some fictitious find that might significantly change the timetable, but you cannot seem to find an actual instance.

its a theoretical question to test evolution. we actually do find fossils in the wrong order. but as i explained- they arent falsified evolution.
 
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The Stamp

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You haven't said anything and you are just looking for a chance to say something harsh about a creationist. Yet another typical evolutionist who has no real argument.
Evolutionist don't need an argument because evolution speaks for itself and creationists have nothing but words in an old book to back them up.
 
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doubtingmerle

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why not? eyes suppose to evolved about 50 times. so why not some mammals traits?
The eyes that evolved at different times are very different, evolving with different DNA and different structures. The ability to sense light is very valuable. The ability to sense the pattern of light coming from an area (using eyes) is also very valuable. So the fact that many creatures used the available structures they had to develop sight is not a surprise. That is different from having homologous eyes.


why not? if he have all those mammals traits then it will not be a mammal?
For the same reason that a bat is not a bird. Having a wing does not make you a bird.

A reptile that could produce the equivalent of milk, control its body temperature, and produce structures similar to hair would not be a mammal. It would simply be a creature that had found a different way to evolve these adaptions.

Mammals don't just share the ability to make milk and control body temperature. They all do this using the same basic body structure and DNA coding. Since there are many body structures that could produce nourishment for the young or control body temperature, and many different DNA codings to do this, but all mammals use the same pattern, that is indication they all evolved from the same ancestor. Else, why would they all do it the same way?

You are talking about imaginary reptiles with boobs. Since no such creatures exist, why the big deal? Should you find one, then evolution would strongly predict the DNA and body structures to produce that milk-like substance would be very different from that in mammals.

again: the same can be said for any complex trait that suppose to evolve by a convergent evolution. but in fact its happened according to evolution. also; there is also a different between mammals themself. and still scientists claiming that they evolved from a common mammal. so difference or similarity doesnt saying much.
There is a difference between the arm of a man, the paw of a bear, and the wing of a bat. And yet they all have the same homologous structure. Looking at it with the trained eye, it becomes obvious all came from the same evolutionary pathway.


the dorsal fin of both dolphin and ichthyosaur is looking very similar:

Ichthyosaur - Wikipedia

and still i doesnt see any problem for evolution.
Sure, because they both swam and swimming requires stabilization against rolling. So it would be expected that both would develop the ability to stabilize against rolling, and that is efficiently done with a dorsal fin. I am no expert on anatomy, but I would predict the structure of the dorsal fin on the ichthyosaur would be quite different from the dolphin.


its a theoretical question to test evolution. we actually do find fossils in the wrong order. but as i explained- they arent falsified evolution.
Where? So far you have failed to give us an example of fossils in the wrong order.
 
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xianghua

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A reptile that could produce the equivalent of milk, control its body temperature, and produce structures similar to hair would not be a mammal. It would simply be a creature that had found a different way to evolve these adaptions.

but if it will be a 300 my old fossil then you cant get his DNA, so you actually says that if we will find a creature with all the traits of mammal in a 300my old layer it will not falsified evolution. you will just all it convnergent evolution.


Should you find one, then evolution would strongly predict the DNA and body structures to produce that milk-like substance would be very different from that in mammals.

see above the DNA problem. you can just compare a morphological similarity.


I would predict the structure of the dorsal fin on the ichthyosaur would be quite different from the dolphin.

its not. you can see it clearly that they are both very similar. actually- they are shared more similarity to each other then the similarity between a horse limb and a human one.


Where? So far you have failed to give us an example of fossils in the wrong order.

why should i give one if it will not falsified evolution at all?
 
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doubtingmerle

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but if it will be a 300 my old fossil then you cant get his DNA, so you actually says that if we will find a creature with all the traits of mammal in a 300my old layer it will not falsified evolution. you will just all it convnergent evolution.
Why do you keep going to hypotheticals? Why not deal with reality?

Yes, if you were to find a 300 million year old fossil that is identical with modern mammals, that will create huge problems for the evolutionary timetable. OK, now your assignment is to go out and find one. Just sitting here and claiming that, if hypothetically you would find one, that would hypothetically be problematic for evolution, is not a very convincing case.
its not. you can see it clearly that they are both very similar. actually- they are shared more similarity to each other then the similarity between a horse limb and a human one.
Again, you are talking about similarity of function, which nobody denies. Fish, dolphins, and Ichty needed to keep from rolling over when swimming, and each has a dorsal fin, the ideal means of staying upright. But just as both bats and birds have wings, but do not have the same wing, so fish, dolphins and Ichty did not have the same dorsal fin. Fish generally have rays from the backbone that support the fin. Ichty had no such rays, and it wasn't even known if they had dorsal fins until we found fossils with the fin shape preserved. But Ichty had no bones to support it. Needing a dorsal fin, but with the supporting bones gone, it simply improvised and evolved tissues that would do the same thing as the dorsal fin on the fish. That is not the same thing as the dorsal fin on the fish. Having the same shape and function does not mean it is using the same structure.


why should i give one if it will not falsified evolution at all?
Uh, because you made the claim there are fossils out of sequence, that is why you should give us an example.
 
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xianghua

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