Are there dolphins in heaven?

[ViaCrucis]

Since sin hides in our memories of a sinful world, it would make sense that they wouldn't be accessible.

St. Paul says that the "law of sin" resides even in our bodily members. And yet, these same bodily members will be raised up on the Last Day, sown in mortality and raised in immortality, sown in decay and raised in incorruption, sown a soulish body and raised a spiritual body, sown in dishonor and raised in honor.

If God can glorify even these old skin and bones, what stops Him from doing the same to our minds? Our memories? Our experiences? Especially since that is what we read in Scripture--to have the mind of Christ, to be transformed by the renewing of our mind, that we have been given a heart of flesh, and that the work which God began will be completed and made perfect on the Last Day.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Gregory Thompson]

St. Paul says that the "law of sin" resides even in our bodily members. And yet, these same bodily members will be raised up on the Last Day, sown in mortality and raised in immortality, sown in decay and raised in incorruption, sown a soulish body and raised a spiritual body, sown in dishonor and raised in honor.

If God can glorify even these old skin and bones, what stops Him from doing the same to our minds? Our memories? Our experiences?

-CryptoLutheran

The verse you are referring to says we take off mortality, take off corruption, and put on immortality, and put on incorruption.

However, the passage does say in Isaiah that we won't remember the former heaven and earth, when the new heaven and earth come to be.

Come to think of it, I might open up a similar thread in controversial theology so the range of expression can be wider.

Emotional reasons to support a theology tend to be more common in that sub forum.

 

[CMDRExorcist]

Bacon trees.

I joke. I don't know of course. How could I?

I love eating meat as much as the next carnivore. But, I'll be honest, not having a hamburger for eternity seems like a very small thing to give up in the Age to Come when I'll be with the Savior and all my brothers and sisters forever.

-CryptoLutheran

The Bible tells us that He is a graceful, merciful, and loving God. Therefore, I believe in sitting with Jesus under a bacon tree talking about the universe and watching a brilliant sunset.

 

[CMDRExorcist]

But our memories are attached to these bodies, that will die and decay, and be incinerated. Sin will be forever behind a firewall, so there will be nothing to trigger the old memories.

Since sin will be out of the picture, everything will be better.

Something to the measure of being "beyond what we can imagine or think" #notboring

We are not our bodies. Our memories, our hopes, our dreams, and everything else that makes us who we are is tied to our soul. Our bodies will perish, but we will live on with Christ in the renewed Kingdom (Matthew 19:28-30). It wouldn't be possible for us to live on with Him if we were a bunch of amnesiacs roaming through the clouds and, just MHO, it would negate the whole purpose of Christ's sacrifice and ongoing effort to guide his children to redemption.

 

[ViaCrucis]

We are not our bodies. Our memories, our hopes, our dreams, and everything else that makes us who we are is tied to our soul. Our bodies will perish, but we will live on with Christ in the renewed Kingdom (Matthew 19:28-30). It wouldn't be possible for us to live on with Him if we were a bunch of amnesiacs roaming through the clouds and, just MHO, it would negate the whole purpose of Christ's sacrifice and ongoing effort to guide his children to redemption.

I would just want to point out that, biblically, we are our body and soul. God promises that even as Jesus was raised up from the dead, we shall be raised up also (Romans 8:11, Philippians 3:21, and 1 Corinthians 15:20-23, 35-58). These mortal bodies will be raised up immortal; these corruptible bodies will be raised up incorruptible, these old bones will be transformed into something new. Even as our Lord Jesus rose from the dead, and was solid, flesh and bone, even bearing the wounds of His crucifixion, so shall we be raised up.

The body is not merely brought back to life, it is transformed. Glorified and spiritual bodies, still skin and bone, but transformed and made alive by the power of the Spirit. The words Paul uses in 1 Corinthians 15 to describe the present body and the body in the resurrection is "psuchekos" and "pneumatikos" respectively. The present body is called a "soma psuchekon" or "soulish body", but is often translated as "natural body", the body animiated by our present soulishness--the animal appetites, mortal, subject to decay, and rotten with sin. It is transformed into a "soma pneumatikon" or "spiritual body" because, as Paul tells us in Romans 8:11, the Holy Spirit Himself will give life to our bodies, a body animated not by our present sinful soulishness but animated by the quickening power of the Holy Spirit, glorified and immortal and incorruptible.

It's just like how Paul contrasts the "natural man" (more literally "soulish man") who is unregenerate and without the Holy Spirit, what we were before we were born again; and the "spiritual man" who is alive to God by the indwelling and power of the Spirit, born again. The old Adam and the new man contrasted. Likewise, these old weak bones will become glorious, even as our Lord Jesus is glorious in His body.

There has been an unfortunate thing that has happened in the Western Church over the last hundred or so years, where the doctrine of the resurrection has been ignored in favor of the idea that we will spend eternity as disembodied "souls". It is true that between death of the body and the resurrection of the body we will be at rest in the presence of the Lord in heaven; but this is what theologians call "the intermediate state", a time of waiting and refreshment as we wait for the resurrection and the renewing of all things at Christ's return.

In addition to the Scriptures I already mentioned, we can see more Scripture speaks about it, even in the Old Testament. In Job we read "I know that my Redeemer lives, and in the end He shall stand upon the earth; though my skin be destroyed, yet in my flesh I shall see God." (Job 19:25-26). In Isaiah 26:19 we read, "Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy!". And in the book of Daniel "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Daniel 12:2).

We also have the confessions of faith which have come down to us from the beginning, such as in the Apostles' Creed that "we believe ... in the resurrection of the body". Early Christian writers, such as Justin Martyr wrote entire works defending the resurrection (such as Justin's On the Resurrection). This is true all the way into modern day.

The Protestant Reformers confessed the same, "Also they teach that at the Consummation of the World Christ will appear for judgment, and will raise up all the dead; He will give to the godly and elect eternal life and everlasting joys," (Augsburg Confession, Article XVII). "At the last day, such as are found alive shall not die, but be changed; and all the dead shall be raised up with the self-same bodies, and none other, although with different qualities, which shall be united again to their souls forever." (Westminster Confession of Faith, XXXII.II). If we keep looking at what virtually all church statements of faith and confessions say, regardless of denomination, we see the same over and over.

A small sampling:

"The bodies of men after death return to dust, but their spirits return immediately to God -- the righteous to rest with Him; the wicked to be reserved under darkness to the judgment. At the last day, the bodies of all the dead, both just and unjust, will be raised." - The Abstract of Principles, Southern Baptist Convention,

"After Christ returns to reign, He will bring about the final defeat of Satan and all of his minions and works, the resurrection of the dead, the final judgment and the eternal blessing of the righteous," - Core Principles and Beliefs, Vineyard Association of Churches

"The resurrection of those who have fallen asleep in Christ and their translation together with those who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord is the imminent and blessed hope of the church." - 16 Fundamental Truths, Assemblies of God

I'm not entirely sure when or how, but for some reason over the past 100-150 years this hasn't been emphasized, and so many Christians in the West (of all denominations) haven't been properly taught one of the most basic truths of our faith: That we believe in the resurrection of the body. Not an eternity as souls "in heaven", but raised up bodily, like Jesus, and to enjoy God and all creation forever.

I know that I was never taught this at my church growing up. I didn't learn it until I began reading the Bible for myself more seriously when I got older. And when I looked to see what Christians historically believed, I was astounded by how something so basic and universal as this, and taught throughout history in all Christian churches and denominations, could be something I just never heard about.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[CMDRExorcist]

I would just want to point out that, biblically, we are our body and soul. God promises that even as Jesus was raised up from the dead, we shall be raised up also (Romans 8:11, Philippians 3:21, and 1 Corinthians 15:20-23, 35-58). These mortal bodies will be raised up immortal; these corruptible bodies will be raised up incorruptible, these old bones will be transformed into something new. Even as our Lord Jesus rose from the dead, and was solid, flesh and bone, even bearing the wounds of His crucifixion, so shall we be raised up.

The body is not merely brought back to life, it is transformed. Glorified and spiritual bodies, still skin and bone, but transformed and made alive by the power of the Spirit. The words Paul uses in 1 Corinthians 15 to describe the present body and the body in the resurrection is "psuchekos" and "pneumatikos" respectively. The present body is called a "soma psuchekon" or "soulish body", but is often translated as "natural body", the body animiated by our present soulishness--the animal appetites, mortal, subject to decay, and rotten with sin. It is transformed into a "soma pneumatikon" or "spiritual body" because, as Paul tells us in Romans 8:11, the Holy Spirit Himself will give life to our bodies, a body animated not by our present sinful soulishness but animated by the quickening power of the Holy Spirit, glorified and immortal and incorruptible.

It's just like how Paul contrasts the "natural man" (more literally "soulish man") who is unregenerate and without the Holy Spirit, what we were before we were born again; and the "spiritual man" who is alive to God by the indwelling and power of the Spirit, born again. The old Adam and the new man contrasted. Likewise, these old weak bones will become glorious, even as our Lord Jesus is glorious in His body.

There has been an unfortunate thing that has happened in the Western Church over the last hundred or so years, where the doctrine of the resurrection has been ignored in favor of the idea that we will spend eternity as disembodied "souls". It is true that between death of the body and the resurrection of the body we will be at rest in the presence of the Lord in heaven; but this is what theologians call "the intermediate state", a time of waiting and refreshment as we wait for the resurrection and the renewing of all things at Christ's return.

In addition to the Scriptures I already mentioned, we can see more Scripture speaks about it, even in the Old Testament. In Job we read "I know that my Redeemer lives, and in the end He shall stand upon the earth; though my skin be destroyed, yet in my flesh I shall see God." (Job 19:25-26). In Isaiah 26:19 we read, "Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy!". And in the book of Daniel "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Daniel 12:2).

We also have the confessions of faith which have come down to us from the beginning, such as in the Apostles' Creed that "we believe ... in the resurrection of the body". Early Christian writers, such as Justin Martyr wrote entire works defending the resurrection (such as Justin's On the Resurrection). This is true all the way into modern day.

The Protestant Reformers confessed the same, "Also they teach that at the Consummation of the World Christ will appear for judgment, and will raise up all the dead; He will give to the godly and elect eternal life and everlasting joys," (Augsburg Confession, Article XVII). "At the last day, such as are found alive shall not die, but be changed; and all the dead shall be raised up with the self-same bodies, and none other, although with different qualities, which shall be united again to their souls forever." (Westminster Confession of Faith, XXXII.II). If we keep looking at what virtually all church statements of faith and confessions say, regardless of denomination, we see the same over and over.

A small sampling:

"The bodies of men after death return to dust, but their spirits return immediately to God -- the righteous to rest with Him; the wicked to be reserved under darkness to the judgment. At the last day, the bodies of all the dead, both just and unjust, will be raised." - The Abstract of Principles, Southern Baptist Convention,

"After Christ returns to reign, He will bring about the final defeat of Satan and all of his minions and works, the resurrection of the dead, the final judgment and the eternal blessing of the righteous," - Core Principles and Beliefs, Vineyard Association of Churches

"The resurrection of those who have fallen asleep in Christ and their translation together with those who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord is the imminent and blessed hope of the church." - 16 Fundamental Truths, Assemblies of God

I'm not entirely sure when or how, but for some reason over the past 100-150 years this hasn't been emphasized, and so many Christians in the West (of all denominations) haven't been properly taught one of the most basic truths of our faith: That we believe in the resurrection of the body. Not an eternity as souls "in heaven", but raised up bodily, like Jesus, and to enjoy God and all creation forever.

I know that I was never taught this at my church growing up. I didn't learn it until I began reading the Bible for myself more seriously when I got older. And when I looked to see what Christians historically believed, I was astounded by how something so basic and universal as this, and taught throughout history in all Christian churches and denominations, could be something I just never heard about.

-CryptoLutheran

Agreed. I should have said that we're not just our bodies. I remember believing that Heaven was some disembodied experience where we're all floating in the clouds with God, but the Bible is much clearer on the physical presence we'll have in resurrected bodies. I also agree that it's strange how much of this hasn't been emphasized in the church. It's almost like we're afraid to talk about Heaven for fear of seeming greedy.

 

[timothyu]

I also agree that it's strange how much of this hasn't been emphasized in the church.

Because the emphasis in the church is to keep us worldly. It sold out centuries ago.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Agreed. I should have said that we're not just our bodies. I remember believing that Heaven was some disembodied experience where we're all floating in the clouds with God, but the Bible is much clearer on the physical presence we'll have in resurrected bodies. I also agree that it's strange how much of this hasn't been emphasized in the church. It's almost like we're afraid to talk about Heaven for fear of seeming greedy.

My working hypothesis is to blame the European Enlightenment. Between the 18th and early 20th centuries there was a fairly strong reaction against religion, largely in part due to the wars of religion, such as the Thirty Years War. Where fighting between Catholic and Protestant countries, and between Catholic and Protestant factions in the same country--or even between different Protestant factions--resulted in a lot of bloodshed. It's what led many to try and seek refuge outside of Europe, such as in North America, and it produced the early modern philosophers whose works would go on to influence nation building. The Enlightenement thinkers were often ambivelent or even antagonistic against religion; just look at the works of Nietzsche or Voltaire. Even Karl Marx can be said to be a product of the Enlightenment, who saw religion as the "opiate of the masses". Enlightenment thinkers believed in a history of civilization rising up and over against barbarism, and viewed religion as belonging to the "superstition" of the past, and that reason and progress would triumph (of course, a big part of this was to divide the world between "civilized white people" and "uncivilized non-white people", in order to justify colonization and genocide--in the name of "progress" of course).

This is when we start to see "Liberalism" show up among European Protestants, who tried to modify Christian teaching and thinking to align with the Enlightenment, which in the United States resulted in a backlash by those Protestants who would come to call themselves "Fundamentalists" after the publication of "The Fundamentals". And while the Enlightenement, in a sense, can be said to have "died at Auschwitz", since the horrors of the Holocaust and the Nazis demonstrated that "civilized Europe" was not the bastion of civility, reason, and moral progress it believed itself to be--indeed, the "progress" of "white European civilization" was demonstrated to be a complete and total farce.

In the aftermath of the Holocaust and two world wars, Enlightenment Modernity gave rise to Post-Modernity; Liberalism slowly faded (though did not completely vanish), and Fundamentalism receded more into the background until it picked some more traction through some intermingling with American Neo-Evangelicalism (Neo-Evangelicalism arose in the 1930's and 40's largely due to the work of men like Billy Graham, Bill Bright, and others who were dissatisfied with Fundamentalism's non-engagement and wanted to see a more active engagement among Christians to preaching the Gospel, today we usually just call Neo-Evangelicalism "Evangelicalism"). Among Mainline Protestants we see also the rise of so-called "Neo-Orthodox" thinkers, like Karl Barth, Dietrich Bonhoeffer (who sadly perished in a Nazi concentration camp) who were instrumental in resistance against the Nazis and also promoting a Christianity rooted not in culture, but in Christ--neither "Liberal" nor "Fundamentalist".

I think somewhere in the mix, in all the back and forth, in all the cultural battles everyone was trying to win, with moralism taking a more important place over faithful preaching and teaching in the minds of many Christians and Christian leaders; the victim in all of it was that solid theology was not being taught.

Growing up I was taught a lot of things, but it often fell back to moralism--how to be "moral". Most sermons tended to be lengthy lectures, not really on solid theological doctrine, not much preaching of the Gospel, but more "God wants to bless you, and if you live your life this way and that way, you will see God bless you".

But things I really just never received any real teaching on included: the Incarnation, the Trinity, Justification, the resurrection of the body, the Gospel itself even. I knew how I was supposed to "exhibit holiness", but even though I had grown up hearing the Bible, reading the Bible, going to Christian schools, attending Sunday School, going to church, being active in my youth group, going on mission trips, and fully immersed in an explicitly Christian world--when someone once asked me "What is the significance of Jesus' resurrection?" I just stared awkwardly. I didn't have an answer. I mean, had they asked "Why did Jesus die?" I could have given a cookie-cutter answer of "For our sins". But when I was asked a question about the most central teaching of our faith, I had nothing.

And man, let me tell you, as the designated "church kid" who was supposedly supposed to be really spiritual, and really "on fire" for God (it's the part I played, and what everyone around me kept telling me). The fact that I really didn't know anything about my own faith shook me.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[David's Harp]

God, but the Bible is much clearer on the physical presence we'll have in resurrected bodies. I also agree that it's strange how much of this hasn't been emphasized in the church.

Because the emphasis in the church is to keep us worldly. It sold out centuries ago.

I think it's probably more to do with what ViaCrucis states here and how people probably equate this with the final state due to lack of knowledge.

It is true that between death of the body and the resurrection of the body we will be at rest in the presence of the Lord in heaven;

 

[timothyu]

equate this with the final state due to lack of knowledge.

Because the emphasis has been on man and not the Gospel of the Kingdom, God.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

We are not our bodies. Our memories, our hopes, our dreams, and everything else that makes us who we are is tied to our soul. Our bodies will perish, but we will live on with Christ in the renewed Kingdom (Matthew 19:28-30). It wouldn't be possible for us to live on with Him if we were a bunch of amnesiacs roaming through the clouds and, just MHO, it would negate the whole purpose of Christ's sacrifice and ongoing effort to guide his children to redemption.

Scripture doesn't negate scripture though, so there's a pretty high chance that once we're in those resurrection bodies, we won't remember. Something to keep in mind when trying to figure things out, we might forget even asking the question when the answer is available. so covet not, and just appreciate is the message behind it.

 

[timothyu]

so there's a pretty high chance that once we're in those resurrection bodies, we won't remember.

We can hardly remember if at all what it was like to think with the innocence of a child that Jesus said as adults we should do.

 

[The Liturgist]

May God Bless you. There is a sea in heaven and there are animals in heaven. Heaven is like earth. There are mountains, houses, food etc.The difference is that in heaven everything is pure and perfect, nothing dies in heaven and there is no evil. Think of heaven as earth a million times more beautiful!

I agree entirely.

However I think what you are describing in its everlasting fullness is the World to Come, after we are Resurrected and the Last Judgement. Before our resurrection, our souls will experience a blissful foretaste of that, which is commonly called Heaven or Abraham’s Bosom, whereas those likely to wind up in the Lake of Fire will experience a foretaste of that, which is sometimes referred to as Hades.