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Are there any Transitional Fossils?

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Freedom777

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Here is a response from Dr.Patterson(a senior palaeontologist and editor of a prestigious journal at the British Museum of Natural History)about his Book, Called Evolution, of a writer asking him why he did not place any photograph of a transitional fossil in his book.

NONE of the five museum officials whom Luther Sunderland interviewed could offer a single example of a transitional series of fossilized organisms that would document the transformation of one basically different type to another.

Dr Eldredge [curator of invertebrate palaeontology at the American Museum] said that the categories of families and above could not be connected, while Dr Raup [curator of geology at the Field Museum of Natural History in Chicago] said that a dozen or so large groups could not be connected with each other. But Dr Patterson [a senior palaeontologist and editor of a prestigious journal at the British Museum of Natural History] spoke most freely about the absence of transitional forms.

Before interviewing Dr Patterson, the author read his book, Evolution, which he had written for the British Museum of Natural History. In it he had solicited comments from readers about the book's contents. One reader wrote a letter to Dr Patterson asking why he did not put a single photograph of a transitional fossil in his book. On April 10, 1979, he replied to the author in a most candid letter as follows:


'. .. I fully agree with your comments on the lack of direct illustration of evolutionary transitions in my book. If I knew of any, fossil or living, I would certainly have included them. You suggest that an artist should be used to visualise such transformations, but where would he get the information from? I could not, honestly, provide it, and if I were to leave it to artistic licence, would that not mislead the reader?
'I wrote the text of my book four years ago. If I were to write it now, I think the book would be rather different. Gradualism is a concept I believe in, not just because of Darwin's authority, but because my understanding of genetics seems to demand it. Yet Gould and the American Museum people are hard to contradict when they say there are no transitional fossils. As a palaeontologist myself, I am much occupied with the philosophical problems of identifying ancestral forms in the fossil record. You say that I should at least "show a photo of the fossil from which each type of organism was derived." I will lay it on the line- there is not one such fossil for which one could make a watertight argument. The reason is that statements about ancestry and descent are not applicable in the fossil record. Is Archaeopteryx the ancestor of all birds? Perhaps yes, perhaps no there is no way of answering the question. It is easy enough to make up stories of how one form gave rise to another, and to find reasons why the stages should be favoured by natural selection. But such stories are not part of science, for there is no way of putting them to the test. 'So, much as I should like to oblige you by jumping to the defence of gradualism, and fleshing out the transitions between the major types of animals and plants, I find myself a bit short of the intellectual justification necessary for the job . . .'


[Ref: Patterson, personal communication. Documented in Darwin's Enigma, Luther Sunderland, Master Books, El Cajon, CA, 1988, pp. 88-90.]
This is but one example of the lack of transitional fossils.


Created kinds, What are they, and how do you go about catagorizing them. Here are some general predictions or assumptions on what a created kind entails.answersingenesis.org/home/area/magazines/docs/v22n3_liger.asp
 

Karl - Liberal Backslider

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You are, of course, aware with Dr Patterson's further comments on this frequently misused quotation?

What he is saying is that he cannot point to a fossil that definitely represents the ancestor of another group. For example, did birds evolve from reptiles? Hell, yes, we have lots of transitionals. Can you point to a particular skeleton that you can prove is that of the ancestor of birds? Hell no, you can't. You can only point to what you have and say "these are the sort of animals that were around; one of these or something like one of these that we may not have evidence of was the ancestor of birds".

It's a bit like saying "what's the ancestor of Indo-European languages" and saying - "well, we've got fragments from really early on, but the nearest we can give you to an ancestor, and it's not actually, it's the best we have, is Sanskrit".
 
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Dust and Ashes

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Karl - Liberal Backslider said:
What he is saying is that he cannot point to a fossil that definitely represents the ancestor of another group. For example, did birds evolve from reptiles? Hell, yes, we have lots of transitionals. Can you point to a particular skeleton that you can prove is that of the ancestor of birds? Hell no, you can't. You can only point to what you have and say "these are the sort of animals that were around; one of these or something like one of these that we may not have evidence of was the ancestor of birds".
Where can I look at some of these transitionals? Well, I mean not literally (unless there is a museum in the SE US) but maybe a link?
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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You need only ask...

http://www.cnn.com/TECH/science/9806/23/feathered.dinosaur/
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/04/0425_featherdino.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1081677.stm - on this, can I draw your attention specifically to: More than 1,000 specimens have been discovered here and in the surrounding region.

A Google search on "feathered dinosaur china" will get you lots of information. It'll get you lots of creationist sites as well, trying to discredit the finds. Most of them rely on the one fraud, Archaeoraptor, as if one fraud discredits thousands of real fossils.
 
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lucaspa

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lucaspa

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Freedom777 said:
NONE of the five museum officials whom Luther Sunderland interviewed could offer a single example of a transitional series of fossilized organisms that would document the transformation of one basically different type to another.
All the authors have castigaged Sunderland publicly for taking their remarks out of context.

Sunderland played fast and loose with two different terms, Freedom. One is intermediate and the other is transitional.

They are often used interchangeably, but they can also be different.
An "intermediate" is a species that has features intermediate between two groups.

A "transitional" is an intermediate but can have the further meaning that it is in the direct line of ancestor-descendent.

So, let's take an analogy in human family trees. Your great-grandfather had 4 sons. Son A is your grandfather, and he had 4 sons. AA is your father, AB, AC, and AD are your uncles. Now, in features all your uncles will be intermediates between your great-grandfather and you. But only your father is a transitional.

Most (but not all) lines of descent are not complete enough to pick thru the direct ancestor-descendent species over hundreds of generations of species. We end up with uncles and great-uncles.

Sunderland asked about specific transitionals in the restricted sense of direct ancestor-descendent and then printed transitional in the more general sense of an intermediate.

Created kinds, What are they, and how do you go about catagorizing them. Here are some general predictions or assumptions on what a created kind entails.answersingenesis.org/home/area/magazines/docs/v22n3_liger.asp
And the definition is pretty useless, isn't it? If the populations can interbreed they are kinds. However, if they can't interbreed they may also be kinds! However, if kinds are so distinct in appearance, why can't creationists come up with strict categories? Reason: evolution is true and one kind does transform to another kind. You end up with a nested hierarchy of groups within groups with evolution. Here that groups within groups is so plain that even creationist Duane Gish can't avoid saying it when talking about "kinds"!

"In the above discussion, we have defined a basic kind as including all of those variants which have been derived from a single stock. We have cited some examples of varieties which we believe should be included within a single basic kind. We cannot always be sure, however, what constitutes a basic kind. The division into kinds is easier the more the divergence observed. It is obvious, for example, that among invertebrates the protozoa, sponges, jellyfish, worms, snails, trilobites, lobsters, and bees are all different kinds. Among the vertebrates, the fishes amphibians reptiles, birds, and mammals are obviously different basic kinds. Among the reptiles, the turtles, crocodiles, dinosaurs, pterosaurs (flying reptiles), and ichthyosaurs (aquatic reptiles) would be placed in different kinds. Each one of these major groups of reptiles could be further subdivided into the basic kinds within each.
Within the mammalian class, duck-billed playtpuses, opossums, bats, hedgehogs, rats, rabbits, dogs, cats, lemurs, monkeys, apes, and men are easily assignable to different basic kinds. Among the apes, the gibbons, orangutans, chimpanzees, and gorillas would each be included in a different basic kind.
When we attempt to make fine divisions within groups of plants and animals where distinguishing features are subtle, there is a possibility of error. Many taxonomic distinctions established by man are uncertain and must remain tentative." Duane T. Gish, The Fossils Say NO!, 1973, pp 34-35.
 
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Remnant

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Notice how scientists who look so hard for proof in evolution, change categories and language to fit their beliefs?

Not one web-site that was given proved any transitional fossil record. They all showed distinct animals that were similar in structure, that’s all.

Quote from BBC:
'But the story is not simple, not least because there are so many different creatures of various sizes, ranging from pigeon to pony covered with plumage ranging from fluff to feather.'
'One species, called Sinosauropterix, had only a faint fuzz of fibres around its body; these may have been downy feathers, though others suggest they could have been hair or flaps of skin.'
Unquote

May have been? Suggest?

To quote Keith B Miller: http://www.asa3.org/ASA/resources/Miller.html
‘Most fossil vertebrate species are represented by no more than a few fragmentary remains’

And do what with it?

‘…….reconstruct evolutionary relationships from isolated branches of an originally very bushy tree.’


If that doesn’t explain the shaky foundation evolution is on………
 
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Captain_Jack_Sparrow

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Of course the fossil record is NOT the only evidence for evolution.

And from a thread some while ago:

Chi_Cygni said:
Stratigraphy and Cladistics. Strong evidence of evolution?







Stratigraphy - (a) The science of rock strata. It is concerned not only with the original succession and age relations of rock strata but also with their form, distribution, lithologic composition, fossil content, geophysical and geochemical properties -- indeed, with all characters and attributes of rocks as strata; and their interpretation in terms of environment or mode of origin, and geologic history. All classes of rocks, consolidated or unconsolidated, fall within the general scope of stratigraphy. Some nonstratiform rock bodies are considered because of their association with or close relation to rock strata. (b) The arrangement of strata, esp. as to geographic position and chronologic order of sequence. (c) The sum of the characteristics studied in stratigraphy; the part of the geology of an area or district pertaining to the character of its stratified rocks. (d) A term sometimes used to signify the study of historical geology.


cladistics - the systematic classification of groups of organisms on the basis of the order of their assumed divergence from ancestral species




I don't think I have ever heard the Creationist explanation for the correlation statistic between these. This is outside my expertise but I wonder if anyone knows the attempts to refute this (if there are any) and the soundness of the techniques.

I found the following passage:


The results show an average 0.75 correlation between cladistics & stratigraphy, strong positive evidence of evolution. This is not a trivial observation. If evolution hadn't have happened there would be near zero correlation. If a global flood happened there would be a near zero correlation. The odds of getting an average 0.75 across 300 tested cladograms by chance is staggering. Staggering. As a result, the evidence is extremely good that macroevolution occurred. It's not sciences, nor poor old deceived evolutionists fault that there's such a good correlation rather than none at all. I'm just asking you to accept that it exists.
 
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Captain_Jack_Sparrow

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This is interesting:

Remnant said:
Notice how scientists who look so hard for proof in evolution, change categories and language to fit their beliefs?



This is just sweet coming from a Creationist. How about a definition of 'kind' for us. I can hear goal post screeching as I type this.

Remnant said:
Not one web-site that was given proved any transitional fossil record. They all showed distinct animals that were similar in structure, that’s all.

Ah - the old 'I haven't a clue about what evolution says - just my cartoon version I set up as a strawman'.

Do you really cling to the idea that evolution means you see a fish posessing dog ears or a bat with a snakes head? Come on, at least attack evolution with what it says not what you want it to say.
 
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Remnant

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There are two types of ‘transitional’.

General lineage: This is a sequence of similar genera or families, linking an older group to a very different younger group.

And

Species-to-species transition: This is a set of numerous individual fossils that show a change between one species and another.

I’ve studied this is detail, and it’s apparent to me that you need a bit of faith to fill in the ‘gaps’.
More faith than what you would need to believe in a Creator.

It not a matter of what I 'expect' it to look like. It's a matter of observation. When you see a fully formed animal that has distinct characteristics of it's own, the conclusion you must infer is that that animal (or whatever) is unique.

‘Walking whales’ are proof of evolution? Archaeopteryx and the recent fossil finds in China proof? They are all based on supposition.
If creationists used that kind of proof, we’d be the laughing stock of the scientific community.

Do you see the platypus as a transitional species? Or any other of the many ‘odd’ biological forms we see today? Of course not.

But for some strange reason, we have people trying to use the fossil records as proof of abiogenesis.
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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Read Lucaspa's post on the topic.

The platypus is an intermediate. It is a cousin of ours. It is not a transitional in the sense of being in our lineage, but it closely resembles animals that may well have been.
 
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Remnant

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Well thats the thing isn't it Karl; may have been?
I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything in any of these posts, but I've been looking and following science regarding many different things for over 30 years; and nothing so far has convinced me that any of these things may be true, and have seen an awful lot of speculation regarding materialism.
With all the other disciplines showing more observations and evidence pointing toward ID, it still may be awhile before we know anything with certainity.
I wanted to add also that I get the feeling that evolutionists try to fit the observation into the theory, instead of making science by observation and experiment.
There is almost a fanatical pressure by all who believe in evolution to try to fit all the findings into a cohesive pattern.
Just a thought.
 
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Dust and Ashes

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Remnant said:
But for some strange reason, we have people trying to use the fossil records as proof of abiogenesis.
But not everyone who believes in evolution believes in abiogenesis. There is ample evidence that supports evolution. I've had to face that recently and am still working out a lot of the details in my head but how would life arise from non-life? Something would have to happen by chance that we can't reproduce in a laboratory. God had to be responsible for starting it.
 
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Remnant

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Oh, absolutely Forgiven. All life has the ability already built into them to change with the environment; The Creator designed life that way thru DNA. That’s why humans for example, have 3 billion+ base pairs: for change and drift.
And granted, using the fossil record has been quite illuminating to the diversity of life that has existed. And there are questions that haven’t been answered by both creationists and evolutionists, so we are in an impasse.
I’m a true believer that science will, in our lifetimes, show which way the wind blows in this debate.
But I also know that it will be to God’s Glory. :bow:
 
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geecee

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I've been trying to think (still getting there!!),

Imagining myself taking one fossil, then another one that looks a bit different from the first and placing it next to the first, then taking a third one that looks a bit different from the second, and so on...(similar to pictures you see or illustrations or whatever) to build up my argument for evolution.

My question is, is there anything in this human task/process which obviously negates evolution?

(I'm trying to approach this question of transitionary fossils from another angle). My brain is starting to strain!!! :confused:
 
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notto

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geecee said:
I've been trying to think (still getting there!!),

Imagining myself taking one fossil, then another one that looks a bit different from the first and placing it next to the first, then taking a third one that looks a bit different from the second, and so on...(similar to pictures you see or illustrations or whatever) to build up my argument for evolution.

My question is, is there anything in this human task/process which obviously negates evolution?

(I'm trying to approach this question of transitionary fossils from another angle). My brain is starting to strain!!! :confused:
You need to also include the age of the fossils. Transitional series are not simply lined up based on looks, but on age of the fossil as well.

The shells in Lucaspa's post are a good example where the pictures are in sequence of age, not by looks.
 
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