Are there any SDAs aout there who do not agree with the state of the dead doctrine

[TrustAndObey]

Sorry, I misunderstood what you wrote. What do you believe "spiritual death" means?

I think scripture is very clear about it. To blaspheme the Holy Spirit, to refuse the free gift, etc. etc. etc.

We choose to accept Christ as our Savior or we don't. If we don't, we're dead already. Dead man walking.

You seem to think Adam and Eve died spiritually on the day they ate of the fruit, but God is all about mercy, grace, second chances, redemption. They were given the promise of death that day, no doubt about it. You say it was spiritual death, and I don't agree with that.

It's like the Lord telling Eve she would have painful childbirth. She didn't go into labor that second. It was a promise about the future.

OntheDL, thanks for those translations. That was very helpful.

I do believe I have shown verses that describe consciousness after death. The Bible does not go into great detail about life after death because the Bible is written for those on earth about life on earth.

You gave me verses about things happening after the last trump. That has not happened yet.

So to say that we definitely have conscious thought after death, before the resurrection, is speculation. If the bible doesn't go into detail about it, there's a good reason for it. For us, life after death hasn't happened yet. It's an unfinished chapter in the word and we will claim the promise some day.

Resurrection is a promise.

I am a little confused here. You say a spirit can deceive me, but it is a body that I see? Jesus said a spirit does not have flesh and bones. So is it a spirit in a resurrected dead person's body that one would see?

Christ is the resurrection and the life, not satan. I think satan can impersonate someone that we loved and we've lost to death, absolutely. If he can perform miracles I would imagine that he can take on the form of the bodies they had when they were living, but to resurrect those bodies in order to use them, no way.

If evil spirits can inhabit pigs, I image they can transform the image of those pigs to human form.

We already agree that if you see a dead loved one you aren't to communicate with them.

IF you ever see a dead person standing in front of you, they didn't come from God. The only reason a person would fall for that is if they didn't understand what really happens to a righteous person when they die.

Spirit beings aren't anything to do with being righteous or angelic. The Bible uses the same Greek word to describe a man's spirit, an angel, an evil spirit. In other words, it doesn't distinguish or use a different word to describe a human's spirit than it does to describe a spirit without a body.

I think we're on the same path but with diffferent road signs. I agree that a spirit doesn't have flesh and bones, but we all know there's a difference in the human spirit and a Divine spirit. It's the same WORD sure, but the essence of who the spirit belongs to makes all the difference in the word. That's a given.

I'm going to start a new post to answer the question about the parable.

 

[TrustAndObey]

If you want to. First you must establish a precedent that Jesus can uses a parable to describe something that cannot happen.

First, have we established that it is indeed a parable, because I know you and I disagreed on that at one point? Jesus only spoke to the multitudes in parables, so I think it’s pretty clear that it is a parable.

Eila, a parable is an illustration. Jesus wasn’t lying when He used them, He was putting information in language that people could understand, using symbols.

The parable of the tares of the field, for instance. Obviously human beings are not wheat (or goats or sheep for that matter), but when Jesus described us that way, it was an illustration.

When He talked about the tares burning up, it was to ILLUSTRATE what will happen to the wicked at the end, after the harvest. In fact, the entire “harvest” is symbolism. He likened the end and the separation of the righteous and the wicked as an actual field harvest-and separation of wheat from the tares.

I know you don’t believe that we will become wheat at the end. I guess you could say that CAN'T happen or it would sure contradict a lot of other scripture about glorified bodies, etc....but that's how Christ explained it in the parable. There's your precedence.

In the parable of Lazarus and the rich man we aren’t given nearly enough information to base our entire belief system on. In fact, we’re told how to read the bible and that is line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little. Basing a belief system on a parable is actually anti-biblical if you think about it.

You can’t take a parable and two or three verses and let them override all the many verses that talk about the sleep of death, and the resurrection where we put on immortality at the last trump. That is not how scripture says to read scripture. We’re given bits and pieces that we have to put together, that’s why we have to rightly divide the Word.


Gather all the verses that talk about subject before you make a decision about anything. What is the overall message? Base your beliefs on THAT sister.

Lazarus was a poor man in the parable, but we’re never once told that he was righteous or that he had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ as his Savior. If being poor is the only requirement one needs to go to heaven, I’m in like Flynn.

It’s even stated flat out: Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

That sums up the entire parable, and it dead-on agrees with other scripture that you have to lay down the things of this world. But does it say anything about accepting Christ? No.

Being wealthy isn’t a condemnation to hell. God gave people great wealth in scripture (king Solomon).


If you take this parable as literal then absolutely all rich people will go to hell and all poor people will go to heaven, regardless of their relationship with Christ--and I know you don’t believe that.

Can you not fathom this as a simple illustration that shows you may be miserable on earth but you will have greatness in heaven?

Let me emphasize again that we’re told very little, and there is no way that by the rich man not helping Lazarus out one time that he deserved to be condemned to hell. You can assume all you want that it’s a character trait of the rich man and that its just one story out of many where he’s just an all around bad guy, but you certainly aren’t told that.

Based on the information you are given, did the rich man deserve to go to hell for what he did in the parable? Does the parable mention anything about his relationship with Jesus Christ or whether or not he accepted Christ as his Savior? No, it doesn't.

Let’s say it really is an illustration of what will actually happen to us when we die. You and I both agree that spirits themselves do not have flesh and bones. Lazarus and the rich man still retained their bodies. They have fingers and tongues. And they can see each other so they have eyes too.

If you take precept upon precept, Christ would be totally contradicting Himself if He said a spirit doesn’t have flesh and bones, but yet He tells a story about two spirits that do have flesh and bones. If it's not a parable, we've got some big problems. Line upon line…what is the overall message?

It’s a parable, an illustration. The message I get from it is that I may have NOTHING on this earth but I'll have everything in heaven. There's symbolism in the rich man equaling a wicked person and a righteous man equaling a poor man.

And my goodness, what kind of heaven is it if you’re watching people suffer in hell? Seriously. Do you really think that is what heaven is going to be like?

 

[Jimlarmore]

The state of the dead is one of the clearest teachings in the Bible. In John 11:11 Jesus called death a sleep so we can get an idea of what it actually is. Later when He was speaking to Martha at the grave just before He resurrected Lazarus He said that those who believed in Him would never die. So again this emphasizes the fact that even though Lazarus' body was dead definititively to us in the eyes of the creator Lazarus was only asleep. "Death" to Christ is eternal what we experience here is not true death but sleep. Sleep that one cannot awaken from without the power of the life giver.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[TrustAndObey]

I believe spirits don't have flesh and bones, but they do look like a human figure.

What about the evil spirits that inhabited the bodies of pigs? They have to have a body for us to see them.

How do you know they didn't recognize Him? It just says they were started and frightened because they thought they saw a spirit. They had no problem with the idea that a spirit could be seen.

You and I see this from two totally perspectives. I see this as Christ correcting their error; not at all that Christ was feeding into their error.

You said earlier that He could’ve told them spirits aren’t capable of being around after death, but Eila, that IS what He told them. He told them “a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see Me have”.

They were in error and He corrected them.

They didn’t think it was really Him. Thomas had to touch Him first. So why did they believe it was really Lazarus when Christ resurrected HIM?


What's the difference here?


Christ is the firstfruits of the dead. The disciples had no other instance to base their opinions on except for Lazarus. There was a difference between the resurrection of Lazarus and the resurrection of Christ.


Both times the disciples were looking at someone they knew had died...but yet they thought Christ was a spirit. What made Him different looking than Lazarus? I think it was His glorified body. Lazarus didn't receive his because he wasn't resurrected after the last trump.

Consider that whole bit of scripture as a learning experience. Christ was correcting them.

Christ had a glorifed body, not a resurrected old body.

Okay, so He ascended back up to heaven in a glorified body after a RESURRECTION. Why would it be any different for us?

Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Christ became the Lord of the dead.

The big difference is that He resurrected Himself, and we need HIM to resurrect us as well.

If He doesn’t resurrect us, what will happen? Scripture says we’ll PERISH. How is that possible if the righteous dead are already in heaven right now?

Line upon line.

1 Corinthians 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

If there is no resurrection, we PERISH. It doesn’t get any plainer than that.

If it takes a resurrection for us not to perish, why do you think we’re experiencing ANYTHING in the interim of death and the resurrection?

 

[TrustAndObey]

1) Y'shua meant what He said. Those who believe in Him will NEVER die.

I see good people die all the time Lebesgue. Even Christ died.

Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

What does it mean to be "dead in Christ"? Doesn't that seem like a total contradiction that Christ is life but we can be dead IN Him?

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

It's the second resurrection and the second death you gotta look out for.

The second death has absolutely no power over those resurrected in the FIRST resurrection.

Hebrew 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

If we're still alive when Christ returns, that's the only way we're going to escape the first death. It is appointed unto men once to die....whether they die the second death is totally dependent on whether or not they accept His gift.

The soul of those who die in Y'shua go to be with Him, He brings the souls of those who die in Him back to be reuinted with their new, glorified bodies.

Again, you're gonna have to show some scripture that says our souls go to be with Him after death.

As for the wicked, yes I believe in an eternal hell. While they are techincally "alive" there it really isn't life now, is it?

Whoa, whoa, whoa. There is no grey here. There is only black and white. Are they alive or are they dead?

You cannot type those words without realizing the contradiction. The wicked that don't believe in Jesus NEVER die either? Is that the promise?

I agree pretty much with what Eila has said about this.

Well there's a shocker since Eila isn't an Adventist.

I believed what she believes when I was Baptist.

It takes some proof for me to believe something now that I've read the bible, so if either of you think you're going to come into an Adventist forum and persuade ME, you're gonna have to do a lot better than this.

2) As for standing up for myself I do. Obviously I'm not SDA anymore and my dear wife is even ok with it and has even been supportive of my becoming Messianic.

But if you decided to become a Seventh-day Baptist, she wouldn't allow it now? You said she wouldn't allow it before. That's why I told you to STAND UP. There isn't a soul on this planet that you should allow to sway your decisions about this.

The 14 years wasn't all misery, I made friends in the SDA church and LOVE the people, it's the doctrines I don't care much for. The misery came in despairing for my salvation because I knew I couldn't live up to the perfection Ellen White said was required to be saved. It nearly drove me to athiesm and that is a place I don't care to go to again.

I can't keep up with you. You said you were miserable for 14 years and that was the only information I had to go on. But thank you for clarifying.

And I am actually greatful for the 14 years I spent as an SDA I leaned things I wouldn't have otherwise. Number 1 how important GRACE is, and number 2 I leaned that the Bible doesn't start at Matthew. There are things such as Shabbat and the food laws that I always agreed with and still keep as a Messianic.

Amen Lebesgue. Isn't it funny how one whole group tells you to basically ignore the Old Testament? Eila, the person you agree with about death, basically told me that once. She wouldn't take into account any of the verses I posted from the Old Testament.

Since you do read the Old Testament...what do you think the bible tells us a soul is?

Souls can be bought you know. They can be gathered by people, and they can be sold. They can eat literal food too and be cut off from other people.

It was miserable jumping through all the Adventist "hoops" and not knowing if I was even going to be saved. The despair I felt in my last months as an Adventist I wouldn't wish on anyone.

There you go again. Did you learn about grace in the Adventist church like you said you did, or did you not Lebesgue?

Thank G-d today I KNOW I am saved by the Blood of Y'shua.

Shalom,

Lebesgue

I KNOW I am saved by the blood as well, and I'm Adventist. Go figure.

 

[Lebesgue]

I see good people die all the time Lebesgue. Even Christ died.

Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

What does it mean to be "dead in Christ"? Doesn't that seem like a total contradiction that Christ is life but we can be dead IN Him?

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

It's the second resurrection and the second death you gotta look out for.

The second death has absolutely no power over those resurrected in the FIRST resurrection.

Hebrew 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

If we're still alive when Christ returns, that's the only way we're going to escape the first death. It is appointed unto men once to die....whether they die the second death is totally dependent on whether or not they accept His gift.



Again, you're gonna have to show some scripture that says our souls go to be with Him after death.



Whoa, whoa, whoa. There is no grey here. There is only black and white. Are they alive or are they dead?

You cannot type those words without realizing the contradiction. The wicked that don't believe in Jesus NEVER die either? Is that the promise?



Well there's a shocker since Eila isn't an Adventist.

I believed what she believes when I was Baptist.

It takes some proof for me to believe something now that I've read the bible, so if either of you think you're going to come into an Adventist forum and persuade ME, you're gonna have to do a lot better than this.



But if you decided to become a Seventh-day Baptist, she wouldn't allow it now? You said she wouldn't allow it before. That's why I told you to STAND UP. There isn't a soul on this planet that you should allow to sway your decisions about this.



I can't keep up with you. You said you were miserable for 14 years and that was the only information I had to go on. But thank you for clarifying.



Amen Lebesgue. Isn't it funny how one whole group tells you to basically ignore the Old Testament? Eila, the person you agree with about death, basically told me that once. She wouldn't take into account any of the verses I posted from the Old Testament.

Since you do read the Old Testament...what do you think the bible tells us a soul is?

Souls can be bought you know. They can be gathered by people, and they can be sold. They can eat literal food too and be cut off from other people.



There you go again. Did you learn about grace in the Adventist church like you said you did, or did you not Lebesgue?



I KNOW I am saved by the blood as well, and I'm Adventist. Go figure.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on the state of the dead issue. Yes, my beliefs on that are pretty similar to what Baptists believe about that.
Yes. I agree with what Eila has said on this issue.
While I believe in what is in the Tanakh(Old TEstament), I DO believe Y'shua's death on the Cross changed things for us and when you accept Him as your Saviour your soul becomes immoratal. He said IF you believe in Him you will NOT die. He RESTORED what Adam lost.

Actually I went to Seventh Day Baptist Church the first 6 months after leaving the SDA church and my dear wife was BITTERLY opposed to it. I prayed to G-d for those 6 months for Him to touch her heart to let me go to Seventh Day Baptist Church in peace. What finally happened was, 6 months ago, out of the blue without my even suggesting it she told me I was forbidden to go to Seventh Day Baptist Church anymore and I should find a Messianic Synagogue and start going there. I saw that as G-d's answer to my prayers and I went and it has been a REAL BLESSING.
You gotta understand I love my wife very much and wanted for peace in my home and I did not like it when the peace was upset by my going to Baptist church.
My STANDING UP was to pray to G-d for a solution and He provided for one that has been a REAL blessing for me.

What I was taught about Grace in the SDA church was by its ABSENCE there. It appears your church may be more progressive than the SDA Churches I have experienced which seemed to have been caught in a pre-Questions on Doctrine time warp.

Praise G-d that you KNOW you are saved by Y'shua's Blood. I am glad to hear that.

Shalom,

Lebesgue

 

[TrustAndObey]

I should clarify something. I don't actually SEE people die all the time. I lose people to death all the time. That's what I meant.

I hope when I get through Nursing school that I don't have to see people die all the time either.

 

[TrustAndObey]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on the state of the dead issue. Yes, my beliefs on that are pretty similar to what Baptists believe about that.

You can't come into the Adventist forum, pose a question like this one (your OP) and preach about what it is you believe, and then just expect some kind of agreement out of me or anyone else. Your OP was an attempt to teach.

You aren't answering some pretty hard questions being asked of you, so if you're going to teach, start by answering those please.

Some of us have typed for a very long time. I hope if nothing else, that you realize why we believe that there is no immortality until the resurrection, when Paul says we put on immortality in the form of a glorified body.

You have a right to your opinion, but I think we both know you are here for reasons other than just expressing those.

You have an obligation at this point to prove what you've said (with scripture) and to answer the questions people are asking you.

You were trying to TEACH me (and anyone else reading) that souls go straight to heaven after death...and the minute you did that, we went way beyond "agreeing to disagree."

Twice now I've seen you tell people they should go to a Seventh-day Baptist church (once in this thread and once in another one). I've seen with my own eyes how you've been proselytizing in the ADVENTIST forum, and asking Adventists to go somewhere else. If that isn't bad enough, you're steering them to a church you don't think has as much truth as the Messianic church does, obviously, or YOU would be a Seventh-day Baptist yourself brother.

Why are you asking them to go from one church full of errors (in your opinion) into another one full of errors?

You have an agenda here and as long as you do, you and I will be doing a lot more than agreeing to disagree.

I haven't seen one ADVENTIST say they agree with your idea of the state of the dead, but if one had, would you steer them to the Messianic church that doesn't teach about what happens after death at all?

I'm not a rookie Lebesgue. I checked out the Seventh-day Baptist church before I joined the Adventist church. I grew up Baptist, and after reading the truth about Sabbath, it seemed like an obvious choice to me.

HOWEVER, I also formed my own opinion about what happens when we die because I read the bible. And guess what? I did it without ever having read one word of an Ellen White book. I STILL haven't read one of her books, and I'm absolutely convinced of the state of the dead.

The Seventh-day Baptist church doesn't teach it either way either Lebesgue. They are just like the Messianic church and prefer just NOT to discuss it.

If I decide to dump the Adventist church and become SD Baptist, can I come to you with questions about exactly what it is they teach? If you don't have those answers, don't you dare tell another soul to go there.

Yes. I agree with what Eila has said on this issue.
While I believe in what is in the Tanakh(Old TEstament), I DO believe Y'shua's death on the Cross changed things for us and when you accept Him as your Saviour your soul becomes immoratal. He said IF you believe in Him you will NOT die. He RESTORED what Adam lost.

Christ referred to Lazarus' death as sleep. How do you explain that? If He considers it sleep, that isn't absolute death brother. There's a promise of a resurrection and of that we can be assured!

Actually I went to Seventh Day Baptist Church the first 6 months after leaving the SDA church and my dear wife was BITTERLY opposed to it. I prayed to G-d for those 6 months for Him to touch her heart to let me go to Seventh Day Baptist Church in peace. What finally happened was, 6 months ago, out of the blue without my even suggesting it she told me I was forbidden to go to Seventh Day Baptist Church anymore and I should find a Messianic Synagogue and start going there. I saw that as G-d's answer to my prayers and I went and it has been a REAL BLESSING.
You gotta understand I love my wife very much and wanted for peace in my home and I did not like it when the peace was upset by my going to Baptist church.
My STANDING UP was to pray to G-d for a solution and He provided for one that has been a REAL blessing for me.

Oh Lebesgue, I'm not a total hard shell. I totally understand that sometimes we do things for the ones we love that we wouldn't do even for ourselves. I GET it brother. I live it every day.

I can promise you right now that the side of me you're seeing isn't the same side of me you would've seen if I hadn't totally recognized your agenda. When you put people on the defensive, you are doing way more harm than good if you're trying to teach them, and you are trying to teach your doctrine in our forum.

If we ever do have an actual agreement, I'll only agree to one. You stop trying to teach your beliefs in here and quit trying to steer people away from our church. My end of the agreement will be that I won't THWACK you.

What I was taught about Grace in the SDA church was by its ABSENCE there. It appears your church may be more progressive than the SDA Churches I have experienced which seemed to have been caught in a pre-Questions on Doctrine time warp.

Like I said, it's amazing how some of you ex-Adventists went to churches that sound like the complete opposite of the one I attend.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Lebesgue, brother, if your experience at your Adventist church was as bad as you described, I do not blame you one bit for leaving. I would leave too and that's the truth.

Obviously there is a HUGE difference between the church you went to and the one I go to (thank God). I will not defend your previous church, but I absolutely will defend mine.

The fact that you're letting the experiences you had at that church influence your opinion of all Adventist churches is unfair.

If you had walked into the Messianic church and the very first person that greeted you was rude and hateful, would you have turned around and marched out? I think I would. But I'd go back and avoid that person like the plague the next time.

What some of the individuals do in a church should in no way influence our overall picture of a church.

 

[Lebesgue]

You can't come into the Adventist forum, pose a question like this one (your OP) and preach about what it is you believe, and then just expect some kind of agreement out of me or anyone else. Your OP was an attempt to teach.

You aren't answering some pretty hard questions being asked of you, so if you're going to teach, start by answering those please.

Some of us have typed for a very long time. I hope if nothing else, that you realize why we believe that there is no immortality until the resurrection, when Paul says we put on immortality in the form of a glorified body.

You have a right to your opinion, but I think we both know you are here for reasons other than just expressing those.

You have an obligation at this point to prove what you've said (with scripture) and to answer the questions people are asking you.

You were trying to TEACH me (and anyone else reading) that souls go straight to heaven after death...and the minute you did that, we went way beyond "agreeing to disagree."

Twice now I've seen you tell people they should go to a Seventh-day Baptist church (once in this thread and once in another one). I've seen with my own eyes how you've been proselytizing in the ADVENTIST forum, and asking Adventists to go somewhere else. If that isn't bad enough, you're steering them to a church you don't think has as much truth as the Messianic church does, obviously, or YOU would be a Seventh-day Baptist yourself brother.

Why are you asking them to go from one church full of errors (in your opinion) into another one full of errors?

You have an agenda here and as long as you do, you and I will be doing a lot more than agreeing to disagree.

I haven't seen one ADVENTIST say they agree with your idea of the state of the dead, but if one had, would you steer them to the Messianic church that doesn't teach about what happens after death at all?

I'm not a rookie Lebesgue. I checked out the Seventh-day Baptist church before I joined the Adventist church. I grew up Baptist, and after reading the truth about Sabbath, it seemed like an obvious choice to me.

HOWEVER, I also formed my own opinion about what happens when we die because I read the bible. And guess what? I did it without ever having read one word of an Ellen White book. I STILL haven't read one of her books, and I'm absolutely convinced of the state of the dead.

The Seventh-day Baptist church doesn't teach it either way either Lebesgue. They are just like the Messianic church and prefer just NOT to discuss it.

If I decide to dump the Adventist church and become SD Baptist, can I come to you with questions about exactly what it is they teach? If you don't have those answers, don't you dare tell another soul to go there.



Christ referred to Lazarus' death as sleep. How do you explain that? If He considers it sleep, that isn't absolute death brother. There's a promise of a resurrection and of that we can be assured!



Oh Lebesgue, I'm not a total hard shell. I totally understand that sometimes we do things for the ones we love that we wouldn't do even for ourselves. I GET it brother. I live it every day.

I can promise you right now that the side of me you're seeing isn't the same side of me you would've seen if I hadn't totally recognized your agenda. When you put people on the defensive, you are doing way more harm than good if you're trying to teach them, and you are trying to teach your doctrine in our forum.

If we ever do have an actual agreement, I'll only agree to one. You stop trying to teach your beliefs in here and quit trying to steer people away from our church. My end of the agreement will be that I won't THWACK you.



Like I said, it's amazing how some of you ex-Adventists went to churches that sound like the complete opposite of the one I attend.

Sorry if I gave that impression. IF people are happy as SDAs then good for them I am not trying to get people to leave the SDA church.

I was actually curious if there was an SDA who did not believe in the state of the dead doctrine because I could NEVER accept it even when I believed in the other SDA doctrines.

I am not trying to teach you or any other SDA my beliefs.

I do not think there are errors in the Seventh Day Baptist Church, I stopped going there for the sake of peace in my home. Joining the Messianics was a compromise that allowed that as my wife is not opposed to the Messianics like she was to the SDB church and I like Messianic synagogue even more than I did SDB church anyway.

I only suggested it(SDB Church) to people a couple of times and I won't do that again. Sorry if I offended
anyone.

Again if you are happy as an SDA, G-d Bless you and more power to you.

You already said you KNOW you are saved by the Blood of Y'shua that's all that matters anyway.

Again I apologise IF I gave the wrong impression. I am NOT trying to convert SDAs.

Shalom,

Lebesgue

 

[Lebesgue]

Lebesgue, brother, if your experience at your Adventist church was as bad as you described, I do not blame you one bit for leaving. I would leave too and that's the truth.

Obviously there is a HUGE difference between the church you went to and the one I go to (thank God). I will not defend your previous church, but I absolutely will defend mine.

The fact that you're letting the experiences you had at that church influence your opinion of all Adventist churches is unfair.

If you had walked into the Messianic church and the very first person that greeted you was rude and hateful, would you have turned around and marched out? I think I would. But I'd go back and avoid that person like the plague the next time.

What some of the individuals do in a church should in no way influence our overall picture of a church.

It wasn't the people. It was the VERY STRICT CONSERVATIVE teaching of the SDA doctrines and the putting Ellen White on a pedestal that made my experience bad. I was taught to believe in Ellen White and DID and I took just about everything she wrote TO HEART. I believed EVERY WORD of what she wrote in Chapter 28 of the Great Controversy and it drove me to utter despair for my salvation.

The people were not bad and I am still freinds with them. It was the teaching and the HARSH way in which the doctrines were presented and the putting EGW on a pedestal that was my problem.

If I had went to more progressive and liberal SDA churches who knows?

I actually find myself agreeing with a lot of what the Progs on this forum say.

But I don't think I'd come back, I'm happy where I am at.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Sorry if I gave that impression. IF people are happy as SDAs then good for them I am not trying to get people to leave the SDA church.

LOL Lebesgue, I'm well aware that there are some people that post here that appear to hate everything about the Adventist church, and yet they stay. So as far as those people are concerned, I think you and I agree.

By the things they say, it really does sound like they'd be happier at a different church, so I can understand you feeling the need to intervene and suggest something else. It isn't taken as well when a Traditional Adventist suggests it, even though the ones I know suggested it for the exact same reasons you did.

We can agree to agree on that one.

I was actually curious if there was an SDA who did not believe in the state of the dead doctrine because I could NEVER accept it even when I believed in the other SDA doctrines.

I am not trying to teach you or any other SDA my beliefs.

Then why did you type your beliefs out? Come on, don't take my newfound respect for you and gobble it up with that answer. Actions speak louder than words.

I do not think there are errors in the Seventh Day Baptist Church, I stopped going there for the sake of peace in my home. Joining the Messianics was a compromise that allowed that as my wife is not opposed to the Messianics like she was to the SDB church and I like Messianic synagogue even more than I did SDB church anyway.

Do the SD Baptists keep the feasts?

I don't like hearing ANYONE compromised their beliefs, even for the sake of peace. Christ said our worst enemies would be within our own homes, remember?

Compromising for the sake of peace has actually been an issue here on this forum a few times. Someone that I dearly love keeps telling me to compromise for peace, but he won't answer me when I ask him how far he's willing to compromise to keep peace.

If I compromised to keep peace in my home, I'd still be Baptist. If that's the kind of compromise that's expected of me, it ain't happening.

Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

I only suggested it(SDB Church) to people a couple of times and I won't do that again. Sorry if I offended anyone.

Apology accepted. Like I said, I do understand why you felt the need to intervene...at the same time, it's not your place to do that here.

Again if you are happy as an SDA, G-d Bless you and more power to you.

You already said you KNOW you are saved by the Blood of Y'shua that's all that matters anyway.

Again I apologise IF I gave the wrong impression. I am NOT trying to convert SDAs.

Shalom,

Lebesgue

Then you and me will be fine.

 

[TrustAndObey]

It wasn't the people. It was the VERY STRICT CONSERVATIVE teaching of the SDA doctrines and the putting Ellen White on a pedestal that made my experience bad. I was taught to believe in Ellen White and DID and I took just about everything she wrote TO HEART. I believed EVERY WORD of what she wrote in Chapter 28 of the Great Controversy and it drove me to utter despair for my salvation.

Well, my comments are based on the limited dialogue you and I have had, and in some of that dialogue you left because of bad sermons, etc. A pastor is an individual within the church. He can in no way represent the whole of Adventism, and shouldn't be allowed to.

Ellen White told people not to put her on a pedestal, you know that right? She believed the bible was the supreme authority, and I feel exactly the same way.

In fact, she said not to quote a single word of hers without knowing the bible inside and out. For that reason, I haven't read any of her books. I have to know the bible first.

The people were not bad and I am still freinds with them. It was the teaching and the HARSH way in which the doctrines were presented and the putting EGW on a pedestal that was my problem.

If I had went to more progressive and liberal SDA churches who knows?

I actually find myself agreeing with a lot of what the Progs on this forum say.

But I don't think I'd come back, I'm happy where I am at.

Your Prog friends believe in the state of the dead. If they don't, they sure haven't spoken up.

See, this is exactly why it's important to know exactly what we believe and why. I will never go to a church that just doesn't discuss something for the sake of peace. No way.

If a church doesn't list exactly what they believe in, because they don't want some people to be offended by it, then they don't really believe it anyway. To me, that is spineless.

And if people that like to fight and disagree all the time do disagree or agree with you on the state of the dead, I don't see them coming forward to debate it with you. I imagine you're a pretty hot commodity right now actually.

 

[Jon0388g]

Poor Lazarus.

To be absent from the body is to be present with Christ. Imagine how vexed he must have been when Christ raised him from the dead. Taking him out of bliss in heaven? Why did Christ bring him back to this planet?



Jon (feeling very sarcastic )

 

[Lebesgue]

LOL Lebesgue, I'm well aware that there are some people that post here that appear to hate everything about the Adventist church, and yet they stay. So as far as those people are concerned, I think you and I agree.



By the things they say, it really does sound like they'd be happier at a different church, so I can understand you feeling the need to intervene and suggest something else. It isn't taken as well when a Traditional Adventist suggests it, even though the ones I know suggested it for the exact same reasons you did.

We can agree to agree on that one.



Then why did you type your beliefs out? Come on, don't take my newfound respect for you and gobble it up with that answer. Actions speak louder than words.

Well, I did want people to know where I stand on that issue. I admit I may have given an impression I did not mean to give and I apologise for that.



Do the SD Baptists keep the feasts?

No the SDBs don't and that and not keeping the food laws are 2 points I DISAGREE with the SDBs on and why I like Messianic Judiasm better.

I don't like hearing ANYONE compromised their beliefs, even for the sake of peace. Christ said our worst enemies would be within our own homes, remember?

I see your point, but I believe that G-d had answered my prayers for a way for me to not be SDA and have peace in my home. I prayed and prayed to G-d for Him to touch my wife's heart to let me have peace about my decision. I could not go back to SDA church and pretend to be something I'm not, I don't do that.

Compromising for the sake of peace has actually been an issue here on this forum a few times. Someone that I dearly love keeps telling me to compromise for peace, but he won't answer me when I ask him how far he's willing to compromise to keep peace.

If I compromised to keep peace in my home, I'd still be Baptist. If that's the kind of compromise that's expected of me, it ain't happening.

Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.



Apology accepted. Like I said, I do understand why you felt the need to intervene...at the same time, it's not your place to do that here.



Then you and me will be fine.

I am glad we'll be fine.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Poor Lazarus.

To be absent from the body is to be present with Christ. Imagine how vexed he must have been when Christ raised him from the dead. Taking him out of bliss in heaven? Why did Christ bring him back to this planet?

Jon (feeling very sarcastic )

Feeling snippity are ya? That's a guaranteed thwacking from me you know.

The story of Lazarus' resurrection does raise a lot of questions about mainstream theology on death though, doesn't it?

I think reading that story was what really made this whole thing sink in for me, personally. Reading it and comparing it to what I had always believed/been told didn't jive at all.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Lebesgue, I am in no way telling you how to live your life or that the answer you received from God wasn't absolute affirmation of your prayer(s). That is totally between you and Him and that relationship is sacred.

I believe He does answer prayers in many different ways, so I totally understand.

I've seen a lot of people come and go on this board, and you're actually really refreshing to me, even though we didn't get started on the right foot.

You left the Adventist church without totally denouncing the Sabbath commandment. That's rare, believe me.

It seems like once someone decides a teaching within our church is wrong, they go full swing in the opposite direction of all the teachings. It eventually always seems (at least to me) that they will denounce Sabbath at some point.

You don't like the state of the dead belief, and that's okay, but if you start talking about new covenant Christians not having to obey God's law, I'll thwack you for that too. HA!

 

[thecountrydoc]

Do we need a full blown dissertation on the parable of Lazzarus and the Rich Man? If we do then I will post one.

Respectfully,
Doc

 

[Jimlarmore]

Poor Lazarus.

To be absent from the body is to be present with Christ. Imagine how vexed he must have been when Christ raised him from the dead. Taking him out of bliss in heaven? Why did Christ bring him back to this planet?



Jon (feeling very sarcastic )

Very true brother, I like John 14:1-3 "Let not your heart be troubled, ye believe in God believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions. If it were not so I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you and if I go to prepare a place for you I will come again and receive you unto myself that where I am there ye may be also.

If when we died we went straight to our reward then why would He say He would come and "recieve us to Him self? " Wouldn't we already be there in spirit? Why in John when Christ is speaking of saving His children He says many times that He would "raise him up in the last day" if they were already there? Let's use some common sense shall we?

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[TrustAndObey]

Do we need a full blown dissertation on the parable of Lazzarus and the Rich Man? If we do then I will post one.

Respectfully,
Doc

Me likey the parable, talking about it, dissecting it, comparing it with other scriptures....post it Doc, and I'll see if there's anything this country chick can add to it.