Are there any non-Pauline congregations out there?

[ananda]

I believe in Messiah Yeshua and receive Him as my King and Saviour, and that He did not abolish the commandments but fulfilled them. That we need to have faith & faithfulness (works) too - as James wrote. As commanded by YHVH Elohim in Deu 13, my dilemma is finding any non-Pauline congregations out there - are there any?

 

[heymikey80]

The problem would be that you'd have to add Peter and James to that list, as they both endorsed Paul's teaching (Gal 2, 2 Pt 3:15-16).

Excluding that would prove too much.

 

[ananda]

The problem would be that you'd have to add Peter and James to that list, as they both endorsed Paul's teaching (Gal 2, 2 Pt 3:15-16)...

I'm responding at christianforums.com /t7559424

 

[PaladinValer]

There is no such thing.

St. Paul is foundational to Christian theology, faith, practice, and morals.

 

[ananda]

There is no such thing. St. Paul is foundational to Christian theology, faith, practice, and morals.

YHVH Elohim and Yeshua Messiah is my foundation for theology, faith, practice, and morals.

 

[Faithful Skeptic]

I'm pretty sure Yeshua thought Paul was a pretty cool guy, as did all the authors of the New Testament Bible. Are you asking for a Christianity without the Bible? I mean, in your opening statement you accept a teaching of James, but James accepted the teachings of Paul as well. That's like asking for a non-Revelation congregation because you don't like what revelation says. I'm interested in knowing how you tested Paul and found his teachings to be false.

 

[ananda]

I'm pretty sure Yeshua thought Paul was a pretty cool guy, as did all the authors of the New Testament Bible. Are you asking for a Christianity without the Bible? I mean, in your opening statement you accept a teaching of James, but James accepted the teachings of Paul as well. That's like asking for a non-Revelation congregation because you don't like what revelation says. I'm interested in knowing how you tested Paul and found his teachings to be false.

I am asking for Christianity without Paul, not a Christianity without the Bible ... you're welcome to check out christianforums.com/t7559424 for some of my arguments against Paul!

btw, I believe James' epistle was written to counter Paul's teachings!

 

[PaladinValer]

YHVH Elohim and Yeshua Messiah is my foundation for theology, faith, practice, and morals.

1. God has no name. YHVH is a verb; names are nouns. God essentially told Moses "Nevermind what my name is; tell them about Me."
2. YHVH is all Three Persons: the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Each is a distinct hypostasis but each is equally and eternally God.
3. The Holy Spirit inspired the Bible. That means St. Paul is a Christian witness and you must accept him. There is no Christianity without St. Paul. It is impossible. Same goes with the Apostles and the Evangelists St. John Mark and St. Luke.

 

[ananda]

1. God has no name. YHVH is a verb; names are nouns. God essentially told Moses "Nevermind what my name is; tell them about Me."

YHVH is His Name (Ex 6:3). YHVH is a proper noun. See Strong's H3068.

The Holy Spirit inspired the Bible. That means St. Paul is a Christian witness and you must accept him. There is no Christianity without St. Paul. It is impossible. Same goes with the Apostles and the Evangelists St. John Mark and St. Luke.

Elohim allowed Satan in the Garden of Eden to test man. Messiah allowed Judas into His inner group of 12 apostles. YHVH commands us to test all prophets (Deu 13) - Paul claims to be a prophet. Have you obeyed the commandment to test him?

 

[PaladinValer]

Yahweh is a Hebrew verb. That is a linguistical fact. Learn something of Hebrew.

Elohim literally means "many gods." It too isn't a name but a contraction of "el" (god; also the name of a Pagan deity I might add) and a plural suffix.

Bringing up Judas and comparing him to St. Paul is nonsense. Judas lost faith; St. Paul was given faith and lived it out to his worthy martyrdom.

I'll say it again: it is absolutely impossible for there to be Christianity without St. Paul. That is a theological and historical fact.

 

[ananda]

Yahweh is a Hebrew verb. That is a linguistical fact. Learn something of Hebrew. Elohim literally means "many gods." It too isn't a name but a contraction of "el" (god; also the name of a Pagan deity I might add) and a plural suffix.

How is this issue relevant to the topic of this thread and forum, whether YHVH is a noun or verb, or whether Elohim is singular or plural?

Bringing up Judas and comparing him to St. Paul is nonsense. Judas lost faith; St. Paul was given faith and lived it out to his worthy martyrdom.

Our beliefs on Judas and Paul does not give us a pass to ignore the commandments. Again, I ask, have you obeyed the commandments to test all prophets instead of accepting them with blind faith on the judgment of others?

I'll say it again: it is absolutely impossible for there to be Christianity without St. Paul. That is a theological and historical fact.

Perhaps so, that is why I consider myself a Nazarene/Netzarim instead of Christian.

 

[Aibrean]

How do you believe in Jesus when you don't accept the other parts of the Bible as factual?

 

[PaladinValer]

Our beliefs on Judas and Paul does not give us a pass to ignore the commandments. Again, I ask, have you obeyed the commandments to test all prophets instead of accepting them with blind faith on the judgment of others?

Judaizerism was condemned as a heresy in the 1st century as the Bible attests. Jesus fulfilled the Law and the Prophets. He is our Great High Hierarch. It is what comes out of us, not in us, is what defiles us, which is sin.

Jesus gave us the only Commandments we need: to love God and love our neighbor.

This is Christianity. Any sort of needing the 613 laws of the Torah is heresy and not Christian.

Since St. Paul follows the orthodox theology and indeed his theology matches that of St. James of Jerusalem's, then there is no reason to "test" him.

Perhaps so, that is why I consider myself a Nazarene/Netzarim instead of Christian.

**Points to the title of the forum**

 

[Aibrean]

No one can obey all the commandments. All have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God.

 

[ananda]

How do you believe in Jesus when you don't accept the other parts of the Bible as factual? ... No one can obey all the commandments. All have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God.

Shalom, Aibrean.

Why I believe in The Tanach: Elohim proved He is master over all things (time & space) based on fulfilled prophecy all throughout the Tanach. Messiah fulfilled prophecy from the Tanach and His prophecies have also come true, grounding my faith in the Gospels. The test of an authentic message from Elohim is not mainly the authority of or the identity of the person who communicated it, but the message itself (Deu 13, Deu 17:6, 19:15, Mt 18:16). The message must be consistent with prior revelation (Isa 8:20), they must point people to YHVH Elohim's Torah and Testimony (Isa 8:19,20), and all prophecies must come to pass (Deu 18:22, Jer 28:9), among other tests. The epistles of James, Jude, John, and the Revelation also passes those tests, to my knowledge, so I believe in those. I believe Paul fails those tests as I've documented in another thread.

How can anyone claim to believe in Elohim and Messiah, but do not obey His commandments (John 14:15)? Messiah warns that many will come in His name (Mat 24:5), and false prophets will rise (Mat 24:11) to deceive them, showing great signs and wonders to deceive the elect (Mat 24:24). Paul claims that signs and wonders performed at his hand are evidence that he is an apostle (2Cor 12:12). Messiah warned us of the opposite, that false prophets will show great signs and wonders to deceive the elect (Mat 24:24)!

Messiah warns us to be careful that nobody deceives us (Mat 24:4). We can obey Messiah by obeying Elohim's commandment to test all "prophets" - including Paul, since he claimed to speak for Messiah and Elohim. Are we being careful if we close our eyes and accept everything by blind faith? I am not willing to risk my eternal salvation by doing that and by ignoring those commandments.

BTW, I do not obey the commandments necessarily for salvation, but for sanctification. I know I cannot obey all the commandments, but I know Elohim knows my heart wants to obey all I can. Sin is not just a vague idea of "doing wrong" ... John explicitly defined what sin is: transgression (breaking or abandoning) the Law (1 John 3:4).

 

[ananda]

Jesus gave us the only Commandments we need: to love God and love our neighbor.

Paul disagrees! He only thought one was necessary: "if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." (Rom 13:9).

This is Christianity. Any sort of needing the 613 laws of the Torah is heresy and not Christian.

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Mt 5:17-19

**Points to the title of the forum**

Yes I follow Messiah (aka "Christ"), not Paul. This is not Paulianity Forums!

 

[PaladinValer]

Paul disagrees! He only thought one was necessary: "if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." (Rom 13:9).

]

Fallacy of Appealing to Ignorance.

In addition, to follow one is to follow the other.

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Mt 5:17-19

So? You've misinterpreted it based on Judaizerism. Actual Christianity interprets this differently.

Yes I follow Messiah (aka "Christ"), not Paul. This is not Paulianity Forums!

And Jesus picked St. Paul. Read Acts.

 

[ananda]

] Fallacy of Appealing to Ignorance. In addition, to follow one is to follow the other. So? You've misinterpreted it based on Judaizerism. Actual Christianity interprets this differently. And Jesus picked St. Paul. Read Acts.

Paul summarized the law in loving your neighbors, in disagreement with Messiah. Luke wrote what others related to him in Acts - including Paul's desert experiences, which btw, disagree with each other in the details. Anyways, I see we will not come to any agreement as you appeal to tradition, liturgy, theological constructs, and blind faith, whereas I appeal to the commandments in Scripture.

Back to the main topic: are there any non-Pauline congregations out there? Or fellowship groups?

 

[Aibrean]

Jesus said the law is summed up by loving God and others.

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets."

 

[PaladinValer]

No, there are none. There is no such thing as non-Pauline Christianity.