Are There Any Double-Predestination Lutherans?

Albion · Mar 7, 2016

GracetotheHumble said:
If you aren't predestined to salvation then what are you selected for?

Nothing. No selection made in your case.

A single predestinarian is apt to say that God has his Elect, and the others are on their own to be judged on whether or not they believed and lived right. It is impossible, of course, that they could do so, therefore the result is the same, although not because God selected such a person for eternal damnation.

I do not want or intend to speak for the Confessional Lutheran view in saying this, however. Lutherans are not simply Calvinists IOW...except for being single rather than double predestinarians.

Tigger45 · Mar 7, 2016

Here is a quick Youtube video from Worldview Everlasing. A production put out by some LCMS pastors.

GracetotheHumble · Mar 7, 2016

Albion said:
Nothing. No selection made in your case.

I disagree. The only logical conclusion is that those who have not been selected for heaven are selected for hell.

Albion · Mar 7, 2016

GracetotheHumble said:
I disagree. The only logical conclusion is that those who have not been selected for heaven are selected for hell.

Not at all. God can quite logically make selections only of his Elect. And the Bible gives solid evidence of this, while the idea of him tabbing some people for Hell is much harder to prove.

Logically speaking, why is it out of the question (in your view) for God to have predestined some people and not predestined them all? That's what you're saying you can't accept, as I understand your post.

ViaCrucis · Mar 8, 2016

GracetotheHumble said:
This doesn't make much sense. If some are predestined to heaven (single predestination) then where are the others destined to?

Two words: Crux Theologorum

You're right, it doesn't make sense.

-CryptoLutheran

GracetotheHumble · Mar 8, 2016

ViaCrucis said:
Two words: Crux Theologorum

You're right, it doesn't make sense.

-CryptoLutheran

I think I'm more in the Calvinist camp on this issue.

Resha Caner · Mar 8, 2016

I've always hated the way most Confessional Lutherans explain this whole thing ... but for some reason they're OK with it. The interesting part is that I've never seen an unbeliever say, "Yep. I'm good with that." The only people who are ever OK with predestination (single, double, or otherwise) are the "elect".

I'm OK with the basic principles, just not how they're put together to tell the story. Is the Bible God's Word? Yes. Does it speak of predestination? Yes. Are there aspects of God beyond our understanding? Yes.

But to step from there to saying some simple logic from GracetotheHumble is wrong starts to get a bit silly. "Just give up. Don't worry about it." That has always bugged me.

Is it possible - maybe - just maybe - that Romans 8:29 & Ephesians 1:5 are being misinterpreted? Could that possibly be the human failing at play here? That some very complex verses are what is beyond our understanding, not that some simple logic is bad.

- - -

So, I'll ask a few questions. Tell if and when I do something wrong. Here's the first one: Is it possible for a saved believer to fall away?

Albion · Mar 8, 2016

Resha Caner said:
But to step from there to saying some simple logic from GracetotheHumble is wrong starts to get a bit silly. "Just give up. Don't worry about it." That has always bugged me.

Who said that?

Resha Caner · Mar 8, 2016

Albion said:
Who said that?

Which part? He's been told his logic is wrong. It's been implied he's not a proper Lutheran.

IMO the "it doesn't make sense" statement is a near euphemism for "don't worry about it". This issue has been discussed many, many, many times. Maybe all those things won't be explicitly said to him here, but they have been said in the past, and I bet they will be said in similar future conversations.

Is this the bone you want to pick? If it is, I'll just delete my post.

[edited]

Albion · Mar 8, 2016

Resha Caner said:
Which part? She's been told her logic is wrong.

Well, it was wrong. And then a polite explanation of a different way of looking at the matter was offered. I don't see anything that justifies this characterization you gave: "Just give up. Don't worry about it."

It's been implied she's not a proper Lutheran.

Not really. He, a self-described Lutheran, was advised that her view on this matter was not in accord with the Lutheran confessions.

IMO the "it doesn't make sense" statement is a near euphemism for "don't worry about it". This issue has been discussed many, many, many times. Maybe all those things won't be explicitly said to her here, but they have been said in the past, and I bet they will be said in similar future conversations.

Is this the bone you want to pick? If it is, I'll just delete my post.

You're picking the bone, but yes, I think you're reading much more into this exchange than was there. While there are a lot of nasty putdowns that we read on CF all the time, I don't think that was the case in this instance.

Tigger45 · Mar 8, 2016

I think the best way to stop offending GracetotheHUmble is to stop referring to him as a her. Lol!

Albion · Mar 8, 2016

This happened once before, didn't it? Call yourself "Grace etc.etc.etc." and people are instinctively going to think "female," aren't they?

Tigger45 · Mar 8, 2016

First GracetotheHumble is a fairly active poster and I don't believe he's very thin skinned anyway but besides that nobodies been rude or condescending to him. It's just part of the dialog and it would probably do him some good to know the confessional Lutheran's teaching on predestination. Although it's not a point to which if one were to disagree with that it would keep them from being a member of the laity.

Also this is what I like about Lutheranism. It embraces seemingly paradoxical biblical principles proudly, as opposed to (at least to us Lutherans) making related scriptures say something they aren't readily saying just so the topic seemingly fits together so our finite human brains can neatly wrap our minds around it.

Resha Caner · Mar 8, 2016

Tigger45 said:
I think the best way to stop offending GracetotheHUmble is to stop referring to him as a her. Lol!

My sincerest apologies.

Resha Caner · Mar 8, 2016

Tigger45 said:
Also this is what I like about Lutheranism. It embraces seemingly paradoxical biblical principles proudly, as opposed to (at least to us Lutherans) making related scriptures say something they aren't readily saying just so the topic seemingly fits together so our finite human brains can neatly wrap our minds around it.

You've simply repeated what I was objecting to without addressing anything I said other than my mistake regarding GracetotheHumble's gender. I understand the Confessions and the myriad of explanations Lutherans try to give regarding predestination. I asked a question, not for a repeat.

GracetotheHumble · Mar 8, 2016

From my understanding predestination is not really a core issue within Lutheranism and is somewhat open to each individual believers interpretation.

Ultimately God is sovereign and only he knows how this all works out.

GracetotheHumble · Mar 8, 2016

BTW I am male but no I am not offended...I forgive the confusion on this matter. Thank you for your posts Resha.

Resha Caner · Mar 8, 2016

Albion said:
Well, it was wrong.

Not your call to make in this forum.

Tigger45 · Mar 8, 2016

Resha Caner said:
You've simply repeated what I was objecting to without addressing anything I said other than my mistake regarding GracetotheHumble's gender. I understand the Confessions and the myriad of explanations Lutherans try to give regarding predestination. I asked a question, not for a repeat.

First of all you don't dictate what I post period! Particularly when I didn't tag your quote to my post. Second you only posted part of my post which was of my own perspective in my own words because that's what we do when we dialog in an open forum . And this post didn't contain my 'joke'! about Gacetothehumbles's gender, so at least get your fact straight.

Resha Caner · Mar 8, 2016

Tigger45 said:
First of all you don't dictate what I post period! Particularly when I didn't tag your quote to my post. Second you only posted part of my post which was of my own perspective in my own words because that's what we do when we dialog in an open forum . And this post didn't contain my 'joke'! about Gacetothehumbles's gender, so at least get your fact straight.

Who was post #53 addressed to?

Are There Any Double-Predestination Lutherans?

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