Are the dead conscious and do the continue to exist?

[Timothew]

In post #153 i see Dorothea quoting Timothew addressing me. I can't find the context of what I said ...

I was addressing post 149
Originally Posted by RibI

If you had ever read the Bible instead of listening to what people say it says
you would know you don't have an "immortal soul".
There is no such concept in the Bible.
​

Ribi, this is flaming. Not cool!

 

[Gary51]

This is a discussion forum not a place to see who can copy/paste the most stuff.

But, can't we discuss what has been copy/pasted. That would still count!

 

[razeontherock]

I was addressing post 149
Originally Posted by RibI

If you had ever read the Bible instead of listening to what people say it says
you would know you don't have an "immortal soul".
There is no such concept in the Bible.
​

Ribi, this is flaming. Not cool!

Gotcha. I was just saying that Ribi's statement "if you had ever read the Bible" (to Dorothea, of all people?!) is simply inappropriate. I made no comment re: immortal soul.

 

[Timothew]

Yes, and God gave us immortality from the start by breathing life into us - our soul and spirit. The body came from the dust, but our souls/spirits didn't. They came from Him, therefore they go on etenally and shall. The difference, I believe, we have (some of us on here) is how we view Christ's Incarnation, dying on the Cross for us, and His Resurrection. When this happened, the veil in the temple was stripped away. Our souls/spirits were, from then on, to never be separated from Christ (the believers, that is). We cannot be separated from Christ in this way. It's through His Grace that our souls are immortal and will return to Him when we depart from this earth. At His Second Coming is when it is finished...we reunite with our bodies that were lying in the ground dead, to our souls/spirits once again, in a regenerated or transfigured state (glorified) and will be with Him in His Kingdom forever.

God breathed life into our bodies, without our bodies there is nothing that can breath, we can't have pneuma (breath, spirit) without a body to do the breathing. Our pnuema, breath returning to God is a way of saying we died. On the last day, God breathes life back into us. Then our bodies can breathe again.

The idea that pneuma can exist apart from a body with lungs, trachea, etc, comes from Plato and the greeks.

Jesus said, "See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."

When He returns, we will have bodies and He will give them life again. Just like He did for Adam in the beginning. He made Adam from the dust. He will remake us from the dust that we return to.

It's so cool.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

So, you have not learnt from the bible? Did you get personal lessons from Christ?

The bible is the source that Christ gave. That is where you got your belief.

The Apostles is where I got my belief. The bible is a product of that.

Do you honstly think that I do not read the bible? That is my job where I attend services... I read 'everything' aloud.

Forgive me...

 

[Gary51]

What do you say to this Scripture?
1 Peter 3:18-21 (New International Version, ©2010)

1 Peter 3:19-20

“By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.”

Are these “spirits in prison” evil people who “went to hell” that Christ “preached to” during the three days and three nights He was supposed to be in the grave? This view is easily and properly corrected by using these keys:

(1) The preaching occurred “when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah”—not during Christ’s 72-hour period of death!
(2) The word translated “prison” is not eternal hellfire somewhere under the earth where the “damned” are roasting. Rather, it is the Greek word phulake, which means “a place of restraint or prison.” That place is earth—to where Satan and his demons (Luke 10:18, 20 “spirits”) have been cast down.

During some of the 120 years of Noah’s preaching—the Bible does not say for how long—Christ simultaneously preached to the fallen angels who followed Satan. II Peter 2:4-5 is a helpful reference, because the word translated hell there is really the Greek word tartaroo

 

[Stryder06]

Exactly, the spirit is what gives us life, and the soul is the vehicle for it. So, this is what makes us different from animals and other things created by God on this earth. Animals' body and souls came from the dust, our bodies are from the dust, our spirits are from God...and He is life enterally. He's not of death and never died. So, therefore the verse you're saying cooberates what I was saying. Death has no dominion over us because Christ conquered it. Our spirits are no longer separated from God after we depart this earthily life. We no longer wait in the tombs - body soul and spirit, waiting for Christ to come incarnate in the flesh to break this division (the veil in the temple) and to give eternal life with Him in His Kingdom.

But...ahhh

The Spirit gives life, but the spirit that animates us is the breath of God. His breath is not "living" as it were in the sense that it took on some form and then took up residence within our bodies. We are a soul. The dust of the earth plus the breath of God. One without the other does not equal a soul. What makes us different from animals is that we were created in the image of God and in His likeness. The other creatures were spoken in existence, but God got down and got His hands dirty, so to speak, when He created us. Then He breathed life into our bodies. This is why the grave has no power over His chosen people. He speaks and life returns to those in the grave, and upon their resurrection they will never see death again, but shall live forever more. God told Adam and Eve, "From dust ye came, to dust ye shall return". Without the breath of God we have no life.

 

[RND]

Rubbish.

Just curious but if mankind is naturally immortal what need is there of Christ?

Jhn 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Timothew]

Gotcha. I was just saying that Ribi's statement "if you had ever read the Bible" (to Dorothea, of all people?!) is simply inappropriate. I made no comment re: immortal soul.

My bad, sorry. I think Ribi was frustrated that his biblical belief was pooh-poohed by people who have been in the church for a long time. Sometimes I feel as if I have been banging my head against a wall and I just want to scream, "READ THE BIBLE! IT'S ALL IN THERE!"

 

[Gary51]

You would know...

That why I said it.

 

[razeontherock]

1 Peter 3:19-20

“By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.”


(1) The preaching occurred “when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah”—not during Christ’s 72-hour period of death!

During some of the 120 years of Noah’s preaching—the Bible does not say for how long—Christ simultaneously preached to the fallen angels who followed Satan.

Wow Gary - what'll you guess think of next

Revisionist history - it's not just for Americans anymore

 

[Gary51]

The Apostles is where I got my belief. The bible is a product of that.

Do you honstly think that I do not read the bible? That is my job where I attend services... I read 'everything' aloud.

Forgive me...

I believe that everyone that debates on CF reads the bible. However, reading is one thing.... understanding is another.

 

[razeontherock]

The Spirit gives life, but the spirit that animates us is the breath of God. His breath is not "living"

This raises the interesting point of, what is our own spirit before receiving the Holy Ghost?

John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost"

I hope we would all agree this Spirit is living?!?

Adam was created w/o a living spirit - really? Now I would never want to make the case that we are born in the same condition Adam was created ...

 

[RND]

I must apologize, but I cannot charachterize that statement as anything but nonsense.

Some might say that about your beliefs.

A dead body is not unconscious, it is dead. That is because the person who once occupied it is gone, and...

Where'd they go?

The real question is: Is the person who once occupied that body and who has now gone to be with the Lord unconscious? The Scriptures indicate that they are not unconscious. The Scriptures indicate that they are alive and aware.

Actually the opposite is true. The dead know nothing.

 

[Gary51]

Revisionist history - it's not just for Americans anymore

Americans don't have much history. However, the British from whence you came do.

 

[Timothew]

Some might say that about your beliefs.

I did!
Originally Posted by Rocky1960

I must apologize, but I cannot charachterize that statement as anything but nonsense.

A dead body is not unconscious, it is dead. That is because the person who once occupied it is gone, and that is why the vacated corpse does not say, "hey! stop poking me!".

The real question is: Is the person who once occupied that body and who has now gone to be with the Lord unconscious? The Scriptures indicate that they are not unconscious. The Scriptures indicate that they are alive and aware.
​

Your statement contains a huge assumption: the person who once occupied that body...could you provide medical support for your belief that there is a little man inside you controlling your body?

Rocky's nonsensense.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Americans don't have much history. However, the British from whence you came do.

As do the Churches from which Christianity comes has more history than we.

Forgive me...

 

[Gary51]

I hope we would all agree this Spirit is living?!?

Few Christians understand what the spirit in man is. The spirit in man is what makes him different to the animals.

 

[Gary51]

As do the Churches from which Christianity comes has more history than we.

Forgive me...

Ummm... I'm not too sure about that. America has created thousands of Christian Churches/denominations in it's short existence. On average, every three days a new sect comes out in America.

 

[razeontherock]

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