Are the dead conscious and do the continue to exist?

[razeontherock]

The scripture he posted establishes it. Romans and John. There are many other scriptures supporting what RibI posted.

The wages of sin is death, BUT the gift of God is eternal life.

Whoever believes in Him will not perish BUT will have eternal life.

2 Choices, perish or have eternal life.

This does nothing to define death as ceasing to exist, nor as eternal punishment; it merely distinguishes it from Life.

 

[razeontherock]

Are you mocking our belief in the resurrection? Typical

No, I'm referring to the Greek idea of soul / spirit departing at death, and the body continuing on in some way. (Which is Biblical on occaision, = rephaim)
I had never heard of that in Greek mythology either.

 

[Timothew]

This does nothing to define death as ceasing to exist, nor as eternal punishment; it merely distinguishes it from Life.

Say what now?

 

[Stryder06]

Yes it does speak to being part of G-d's chosen. The words "assembly of the firstborn" speak specifically to those that have gone on before as also being a part! I don't see why you want to discount that or them, but i do not see why this needs to be Salvific. And I don't think it's a question of the Bible contradicting itself, but I do see revelation as clearly being progressive. Also, Solomon was pretty depressed when he wrote your key verse ...

Solomons depression doesn't take away from him being inspired or wise. And I agree about revelation being progressive but that is dependent on the subject. I can be depressed and still speak wisdom. Plus Solomon isn't the only one who speaks as thus. David attests to this truth as well as Christ. I believe Hezekiah speaks about it when he asked the Lord to spare his life. Job speaks about seeing God in His flesh on the last day, but not before then.

Secondly, if the dead actually do know something, then God was allowing Solomon to propagate a lie.

And it seems we're saying the same thing in regards to the assembly of the fristborn. The verse says that their names are written in heaven. Not that they themselves are in heaven. I mean if you die and go to heaven why wait till the resurrection to receive a new body, why not receive one once you get there?

And how would it be punishment if you died but didn't really die? You'd actually just be passing from one phase of existence to another.

Lastly I believe it does matter when it comes to salvation in the sense that accepting this belief could lead to disception. This is not me saying that if you believe that the dead are conscious that you're going to hell. I repeat, I don't believe that if you hold to that understanding you're going to hell. What I do believe is that it's dangerous and could lead to deceptios which could shake, or cause you to lose your faith (and I don't mean you as in you, but "you" in a general sense).

 

[Stryder06]

This does nothing to define death as ceasing to exist, nor as eternal punishment; it merely distinguishes it from Life.

Does this work?

Psalms 34:16 The face of the LORD is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.

Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.... 28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.

 

[Timothew]

Does this work?

Psalms 34:16 The face of the LORD is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.

Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.... 28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.

I'll see if I can answer this:
The dead aren't REALLY dead, they are alive.
And the living aren't REALLY living, they're dead.

 

[razeontherock]

Stryder, again we speak past one another. Some of these things pertain to the physical, some to the Spiritual. Rightly dividing those brings clarity.

 

[Timothew]

Stryder, again we speak past one another. Some of these things pertain to the physical, some to the Spiritual. Rightly dividing those brings clarity.

gnostic much?

 

[razeontherock]

Nope, gnosticism has nothing to do with that.

 

[Timothew]

Nope, gnosticism has nothing to do with that.

The term, based on the Greek gnosis ("secret knowledge"), was coined in the 17th century, when it was applied liberally to ancient Christian heretical sects, especially those described by their orthodox contemporaries as radically dualistic and world-denying, and those who sought salvation through esoteric revelation and mystical spirituality.

Read more: Gnosticism: Definition from Answers.com

Quote: Some of these things pertain to the physical, some to the Spiritual. Rightly dividing those brings clarity.

Paraphrase: Once you rightly divide the spiritual things, you will acheive gnosis.

Right, nothing gnostic there. Move along.

 

[Stryder06]

Stryder, again we speak past one another. Some of these things pertain to the physical, some to the Spiritual. Rightly dividing those brings clarity.

Ok, what do you mean by "pertain to the Spiritual"? I don't want to speak past you, that won't help at all in regards to undertanding.

 

[Timothew]

Gnosticism held that human beings consist of flesh, soul, and spirit (the divine spark), and that humanity is divided into classes representing each of these elements.

Read more: Gnosticism: Definition from Answers.com
The quoted source is Columbia Encyclopedia

 

[Dorothea]

This says to me, Christ's resurrection is transferrable to us. Christ is the firstfruits of resurrection, these are resurrected as he was. They lived again, in the final resurrection all whom Jesus brought back to life, Lazarus, Talitha, all of the others will have eternal life when He returns.

Are you saying that those who came out of the tombs have already gone through the final resurrection where their bodies and souls/spirits have reunited in a glorified state?

This is part of John's Vision. How does it prove people without bodies live? Blessed and holy are those who are resurrected. I believe in the resurrection of the Body and the Life everlasting. These are inseparable, no body, no life. Resurrected body, life.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Juses and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 bBut the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

So it says here that this was the first resurrection. Are you saying that those souls in heaven are already in the glorified state body and soul/spirit? What about the rest of them that not to live again until the thousand years finished (which we believe is the time of the Church of Christ on earth).?

I am confused somewhat here. Are you saying that when we pass this life, we immediately are done iwth the first resurrection and have finished with the general resurrection with our reuniting with soul/spirit and body in a regenerated, transfigured body? That the Second Coming has come for those who have passed on earth?

 

[Timothew]

Are you saying that those who came out of the tombs have already gone through the final resurrection where their bodies and souls/spirits have reunited in a glorified state?

No

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Juses and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 bBut the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

So it says here that this was the first resurrection. Are you saying that those souls in heaven are already in the glorified state body and soul/spirit? What about the rest of them that not to live again until the thousand years finished (which we believe is the time of the Church of Christ on earth).?
John's vision was of things to come.

I am confused somewhat here. Are you saying that when we pass this life, we immediately are done iwth the first resurrection and have finished with the general resurrection with our reuniting with soul/spirit and body in a regenerated, transfigured body? That the Second Coming has come for those who have passed on earth?

No, as the bible says, in the Gospel of John, the resurrection of the body is on the last day. The day is coming, says the Lord Jesus, when all whoa re in their graves will hear my voice and come out, the righteous to eternal life and the unrighteous to condemnation.

We will become alive again when Jesus calls us forth from our graves. If it happens that He returns in our lifetimes, we will immediately receive resurrection bodies. This is according to Paul in one of his letters to the Thessalonians.

The second coming of Jesus is on the last day.

 

[Dorothea]

No, as the bible says, in the Gospel of John, the resurrection of the body is on the last day. The day is coming, says the Lord Jesus, when all whoa re in their graves will hear my voice and come out, the righteous to eternal life and the unrighteous to condemnation.

We will become alive again when Jesus calls us forth from our graves. If it happens that He returns in our lifetimes, we will immediately receive resurrection bodies. This is according to Paul in one of his letters to the Thessalonians.

The second coming of Jesus is on the last day.

Ok, I'm following you here, but it still leaves the part of those in the tombs who Christ freed and were walking around and people saw them not quite answered. I mean, if they have not reached the final resurrection (The Second Coming of Christ, which it would show in that verse that they'd just came out of their tombs after Christ's resurrection), then, how is it that the came out of their tombs and people could see them? If they are "dead" or asleep until His Second Coming, how could they walk around? How could they leave their tombs? Why did Christ release them?

 

[razeontherock]

The term, based on the Greek gnosis ("secret knowledge"), was coined in the 17th century,

Really? Forgive me, but I'm highly skeptical of this claim.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but one key attribute of gnosticism is that physical = bad, and only Spirit is good. That is completely foreign to anything I've said, or ever espoused. Gnosticism also holds Salvation to be primarily an intellectual pursuit, which entirely misses the boat.

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead. Does the Bible say if Lazarus was conscious or not after death?

And the little girl He raised up - when He said something like "she's not dead, she's only sleeping."

 

[Stryder06]

Ok, I'm following you here, but it still leaves the part of those in the tombs who Christ freed and were walking around and people saw them not quite answered. I mean, if they have not reached the final resurrection (The Second Coming of Christ, which it would show in that verse that they'd just came out of their tombs after Christ's resurrection), then, how is it that the came out of their tombs and people could see them? If they are "dead" or asleep until His Second Coming, how could they walk around? How could they leave their tombs? Why did Christ release them?

Dorothea, which scripture are you talking about here?

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

On the day Jesus rose from the dead, weren't there other people who also rose from the dead too?

Scripture says something about that but I will have to go look it up.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

On the day Jesus rose from the dead, weren't there other people who also rose from the dead too?

Scripture says something about that but I will have to go look it up.

Mat 27:52-3 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Forgive me...