are the conditions of infalibillity ever even met?

[Uphill Battle]

Vatican II says: ‘The Bishops proclaim Christ’s doctrine infallibly whenever, even though dispersed through the world, they maintain the bond of communion among themselves and with the successor of Peter, authentically teach matters of faith and morals, and are in agreement on one position as definitively to be held.’
Lumen Gentium § 25b.

Five conditions are therefore required:

Collegial action.
It is clear that the bishops must be involved in an exercise of teaching authority as one body.

As ‘judges’.
The bishops must be free to express their own considered opinion.

In service of the faith of the whole Church.
The bishops must listen to the Word of God and the ‘sensus fidelium’.

Regarding faith and morals.
The teaching must concern matters relating to the object of faith.

In a teaching consciously imposed as ‘definitive’.
The bishops must want to impose the doctrine as definitely to be held.


I don't believe there has ever been a single infallible decision that would mee this criteria.


additionally, I need someone to define what "regarding faith and morals" truly encompasses, as It shifts around like a sapling in a windstorm when you try and pin it down.

 

[ebia]

A more interesting question, in my opinion, is "is there an infallible way of knowing that an infallible position has been arrived at".

 

[sunlover1]

A more interesting question, in my opinion, is "is there an infallible way of knowing that an infallible position has been arrived at".

Gotta admit that IS more interesting lol.
Circular seems to be the word of the hour in GT anyhow.

 

[OpenDoor]

From the RC POV why would you view them as unmet?

 

[obsolete]

One of the books that was left out of the bible was the book of Philip that goes into alot more detail of the complete person.

 

[YinandYang]

The questions posed in the original thread are certainly interesting, as well as quite important to Catholc theology, to say the least. Since we are only discussing the Catholic faith, I will simply quote below the relevant sections of the Catechism of the Catholic Church which pertain to the questions posed:

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

The episcopal college and its head, the Pope

880 When Christ instituted the Twelve, "he constituted [them] in the form of a college or permanent assembly, at the head of which he placed Peter, chosen from among them."398 Just as "by the Lord's institution, St. Peter and the rest of the apostles constitute a single apostolic college, so in like fashion the Roman Pontiff, Peter's successor, and the bishops, the successors of the apostles, are related with and united to one another."399

881 The Lord made Simon alone, whom he named Peter, the "rock" of his Church. He gave him the keys of his Church and instituted him shepherd of the whole flock.400 "The office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter was also assigned to the college of apostles united to its head."401 This pastoral office of Peter and the other apostles belongs to the Church's very foundation and is continued by the bishops under the primacy of the Pope.

882 The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful."402 "For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered."403

883 "The college or body of bishops has no authority unless united with the Roman Pontiff, Peter's successor, as its head." As such, this college has "supreme and full authority over the universal Church; but this power cannot be exercised without the agreement of the Roman Pontiff."404

884 "The college of bishops exercises power over the universal Church in a solemn manner in an ecumenical council."405 But "there never is an ecumenical council which is not confirmed or at least recognized as such by Peter's successor."406

885 "This college, in so far as it is composed of many members, is the expression of the variety and universality of the People of God; and of the unity of the flock of Christ, in so far as it is assembled under one head."407

886 "The individual bishops are the visible source and foundation of unity in their own particular Churches."408 As such, they "exercise their pastoral office over the portion of the People of God assigned to them,"409 assisted by priests and deacons. But, as a member of the episcopal college, each bishop shares in the concern for all the Churches.410 The bishops exercise this care first "by ruling well their own Churches as portions of the universal Church," and so contributing "to the welfare of the whole Mystical Body, which, from another point of view, is a corporate body of Churches."411 They extend it especially to the poor,412 to those persecuted for the faith, as well as to missionaries who are working throughout the world.

887 Neighboring particular Churches who share the same culture form ecclesiastical provinces or larger groupings called patriarchates or regions.413 The bishops of these groupings can meet in synods or provincial councils. "In a like fashion, the episcopal conferences at the present time are in a position to contribute in many and fruitful ways to the concrete realization of the collegiate spirit."414

The teaching office

888 Bishops, with priests as co-workers, have as their first task "to preach the Gospel of God to all men," in keeping with the Lord's command.415 They are "heralds of faith, who draw new disciples to Christ; they are authentic teachers" of the apostolic faith "endowed with the authority of Christ."416

889 In order to preserve the Church in the purity of the faith handed on by the apostles, Christ who is the Truth willed to confer on her a share in his own infallibility. By a "supernatural sense of faith" the People of God, under the guidance of the Church's living Magisterium, "unfailingly adheres to this faith."417

890 The mission of the Magisterium is linked to the definitive nature of the covenant established by God with his people in Christ. It is this Magisterium's task to preserve God's people from deviations and defections and to guarantee them the objective possibility of professing the true faith without error. Thus, the pastoral duty of the Magisterium is aimed at seeing to it that the People of God abides in the truth that liberates. To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church's shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. the exercise of this charism takes several forms:

891 "The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals.... the infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter's successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium," above all in an Ecumenical Council.418 When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine "for belief as being divinely revealed,"419 and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of faith."420 This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.421

892 Divine assistance is also given to the successors of the apostles, teaching in communion with the successor of Peter, and, in a particular way, to the bishop of Rome, pastor of the whole Church, when, without arriving at an infallible definition and without pronouncing in a "definitive manner," they propose in the exercise of the ordinary Magisterium a teaching that leads to better understanding of Revelation in matters of faith and morals. To this ordinary teaching the faithful "are to adhere to it with religious assent"422 which, though distinct from the assent of faith, is nonetheless an extension of it.

398 LG 19; cf. ⇒ Lk 6:13; ⇒ Jn 21:15-17.
399 LG 22; cf. ⇒ CIC, can. 330.
400 Cf. ⇒ Mt 16:18-19; ⇒ Jn 21:15-17.
401 LG 22 # 2.
402 LG 23.
403 LG 22; cf. CD 2,9.
404 LG 22; cf. ⇒ CIC, can 336.
405 ⇒ CIC, can. 337 # 1.
406 LG 22.
407 LG 22.
408 LG 23.
409 LG 23.
410 Cf. CD 3.
411 LG 23.
412 Cf. ⇒ Gal 2:10.
413 Cf. Apostolic Constitutions 34.
414 LG 23 # 3.
415 PO 4; cf. ⇒ Mk 16:15.
416 LG 25.
417 LG 12; cf. DV 10.
418 LG 25; cf. Vatican Council I: DS 3074.
419 DV 10 # 2.
420 LG 25 # 2.
421 Cf. LG 25.
422 LG 25.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText

(Continued in next thread)

 

[YinandYang]

(Continued from previous thread)

III. The Interpretation of the Heritage of Faith

The heritage of faith entrusted to the whole of the Church

84 The apostles entrusted the "Sacred deposit" of the faith (the depositum fidei),45 contained in Sacred Scripture and Tradition, to the whole of the Church. "By adhering to [this heritage] the entire holy people, united to its pastors, remains always faithful to the teaching of the apostles, to the brotherhood, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. So, in maintaining, practising and professing the faith that has been handed on, there should be a remarkable harmony between the bishops and the faithful."46

The Magisterium of the Church

85 "The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."47 This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.

86 "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."48

87 Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles: "He who hears you, hears me",49 The faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.

The dogmas of the faith

88 The Church's Magisterium exercises the authority it holds from Christ to the fullest extent when it defines dogmas, that is, when it proposes truths contained in divine Revelation or also when it proposes in a definitive way truths having a necessary connection with them.

89 There is an organic connection between our spiritual life and the dogmas. Dogmas are lights along the path of faith; they illuminate it and make it secure. Conversely, if our life is upright, our intellect and heart will be open to welcome the light shed by the dogmas of faith.50

90 The mutual connections between dogmas, and their coherence, can be found in the whole of the Revelation of the mystery of Christ.51 "In Catholic doctrine there exists an order or hierarchy 234 of truths, since they vary in their relation to the foundation of the Christian faith."52

The supernatural sense of faith

91 All the faithful share in understanding and handing on revealed truth. They have received the anointing of the Holy Spirit, who instructs them53 and guides them into all truth.54

92 "The whole body of the faithful. . . cannot err in matters of belief. This characteristic is shown in the supernatural appreciation of faith (sensus fidei) on the part of the whole people, when, from the bishops to the last of the faithful, they manifest a universal consent in matters of faith and morals."55

93 "By this appreciation of the faith, aroused and sustained by the Spirit of truth, the People of God, guided by the sacred teaching authority (Magisterium),. . . receives. . . the faith, once for all delivered to the saints. . . the People unfailingly adheres to this faith, penetrates it more deeply with right judgment, and applies it more fully in daily life."56
Growth in understanding the faith

94 Thanks to the assistance of the Holy Spirit, the understanding of both the realities and the words of the heritage of faith is able to grow in the life of the Church:

- "through the contemplation and study of believers who ponder these things in their hearts";57 it is in particular "theological research [which] deepens knowledge of revealed truth".58

- "from the intimate sense of spiritual realities which [believers] experience",59 The sacred Scriptures "grow with the one who reads them."60

- "from the preaching of those who have received, along with their right of succession in the episcopate, the sure charism of truth".61

95 "It is clear therefore that, in the supremely wise arrangement of God, sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium of the Church are so connected and associated that one of them cannot stand without the others. Working together, each in its own way, under the action of the one Holy Spirit, they all contribute effectively to the salvation of souls."62


45 DV 10 # 1; cf.I Tim 6:20; 2 Tim 1:12-14(Vulg.).
46 DV 10 # 1; cf. Acts 2:42 (Greek); Pius XII, Apost. Const. Munificentissimus Deus, 1 November 1950: AAS 42 (1950), 756, taken along with the words of St. Cyprian, Epist. 66, 8: CSEL 3/2, 733: "The Church is the people united to its Priests, the flock adhering to its Shepherd."
47 DV 10 # 2.
48 DV 10 para 2.
49 ⇒ Lk 10:16; cf. LG 20.
50 Cf.⇒ Jn 8:31-32.
51 Cf. Vatican Council I: DS 3016: nexus mysteriorum; LC 25.
52 UR II.
53 Cf. ⇒ I Jn 2:20, ⇒ 27
54 Cf. . ⇒ Jn 16:13
55 LG 12; cf. St. Augustine, De praed. sanct. 14, 27: PL 44, 980.
56 LG 12; cf. Jude 3.
57 DV 8 # 2; cf. ⇒ Lk 2:19, ⇒ 51
58 GS 62 # 7; cf. GS 44 # 2; DV 23; 24; UR 4.
59 DV 8 # 2.
60 DV 8 # 2.
61 St. Gregory the Great, Hom. in ⇒ Ezek. 1, 7, 8: PL 76, 843D.
62 DV 10 # 3.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText

(Continued in next thread)

 

[YinandYang]

(Continued from previous thread)

I. Moral Life and the Magisterium of the Church

2032 The Church, the "pillar and bulwark of the truth," "has received this solemn command of Christ from the apostles to announce the saving truth."74 "To the Church belongs the right always and everywhere to announce moral principles, including those pertaining to the social order, and to make judgments on any human affairs to the extent that they are required by the fundamental rights of the human person or the salvation of souls."75

2033 The Magisterium of the Pastors of the Church in moral matters is ordinarily exercised in catechesis and preaching, with the help of the works of theologians and spiritual authors. Thus from generation to generation, under the aegis and vigilance of the pastors, the "deposit" of Christian moral teaching has been handed on, a deposit composed of a characteristic body of rules, commandments, and virtues proceeding from faith in Christ and animated by charity. Alongside the Creed and the Our Father, the basis for this catechesis has traditionally been the Decalogue which sets out the principles of moral life valid for all men.

2034 The Roman Pontiff and the bishops are "authentic teachers, that is, teachers endowed with the authority of Christ, who preach the faith to the people entrusted to them, the faith to be believed and put into practice."76 The ordinary and universal Magisterium of the Pope and the bishops in communion with him teach the faithful the truth to believe, the charity to practice, the beatitude to hope for.

2035 The supreme degree of participation in the authority of Christ is ensured by the charism of infallibility. This infallibility extends as far as does the deposit of divine Revelation; it also extends to all those elements of doctrine, including morals, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, explained, or observed.77

2036 The authority of the Magisterium extends also to the specific precepts of the natural law, because their observance, demanded by the Creator, is necessary for salvation. In recalling the prescriptions of the natural law, the Magisterium of the Church exercises an essential part of its prophetic office of proclaiming to men what they truly are and reminding them of what they should be before God.78

2037 The law of God entrusted to the Church is taught to the faithful as the way of life and truth. the faithful therefore have the right to be instructed in the divine saving precepts that purify judgment and, with grace, heal wounded human reason.79 They have the duty of observing the constitutions and decrees conveyed by the legitimate authority of the Church. Even if they concern disciplinary matters, these determinations call for docility in charity.

2038 In the work of teaching and applying Christian morality, the Church needs the dedication of pastors, the knowledge of theologians, and the contribution of all Christians and men of good will. Faith and the practice of the Gospel provide each person with an experience of life "in Christ," who enlightens him and makes him able to evaluate the divine and human realities according to the Spirit of God.80 Thus the Holy Spirit can use the humblest to enlighten the learned and those in the highest positions.

2039 Ministries should be exercised in a spirit of fraternal service and dedication to the Church, in the name of the Lord.81 At the same time the conscience of each person should avoid confining itself to individualistic considerations in its moral judgments of the person's own acts. As far as possible conscience should take account of the good of all, as expressed in the moral law, natural and revealed, and consequently in the law of the Church and in the authoritative teaching of the Magisterium on moral questions. Personal conscience and reason should not be set in opposition to the moral law or the Magisterium of the Church.

2040 Thus a true filial spirit toward the Church can develop among Christians. It is the normal flowering of the baptismal grace which has begotten us in the womb of the Church and made us members of the Body of Christ. In her motherly care, the Church grants us the mercy of God which prevails over all our sins and is especially at work in the sacrament of reconciliation. With a mother's foresight, she also lavishes on us day after day in her liturgy the nourishment of the Word and Eucharist of the Lord.

74 1 Tim 3:15; LG 17.
75 ⇒ CIC, can. 747 # 2.
76 LG 25.
77 Cf. LG 25; CDF, declaration, Mysterium Ecclesiae 3.
78 Cf. DH 14.
79 Cf. ⇒ CIC, can. 213.
80 Cf. ⇒ 1 Cor 2:10-15.
81 Cf. ⇒ Rom 12:8, 11.


Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText


II. The Precepts of the Church

2041 The precepts of the Church are set in the context of a moral life bound to and nourished by liturgical life. the obligatory character of these positive laws decreed by the pastoral authorities is meant to guarantee to the faithful the indispensable minimum in the spirit of prayer and moral effort, in the growth in love of God and neighbor:

2042 The first precept (“You shall attend Mass on Sundays and holy days of obligation.") requires the faithful to participate in the Eucharistic celebration when the Christian community gathers together on the day commemorating the Resurrection of the Lord.82


The second precept (“You shall confess your sins at least once a year.") ensures preparation for the Eucharist by the reception of the sacrament of reconciliation, which continues Baptism's work of conversion and forgiveness.83


The third precept (“You shall humbly receive your Creator in Holy Communion at least during the Easter season.") guarantees as a minimum the reception of the Lord's Body and Blood in connection with the Paschal feasts, the origin and center of the Christian liturgy.84


2043 The fourth precept (“You shall keep holy the holy days of obligation.") completes the Sunday observance by participation in the principal liturgical feasts which honor the mysteries of the Lord, the Virgin Mary, and the saints.85


The fifth precept (“You shall observe the prescribed days of fasting and abstinence.") ensures the times of ascesis and penance which prepare us for the liturgical feasts; they help us acquire mastery over our instincts and freedom of heart.86


The faithful also have the duty of providing for the material needs of the Church, each according to his abilities.87

82 Cf. ⇒ CIC, cann. 1246-1248; CCEO, can. 881 # 1, # 2, # 4.
83 Cf. ⇒ CIC, can. 989; CCEO, can. 719.
84 Cf. ⇒ CIC, can. 920; CCEO, cann. 708; 881 # 3.
85 Cf. ⇒ CIC, can. 1246; CCEO, cann. 881 # 1, # 4; 880 # 3.
86 Cf. ⇒ CIC, cann. 1249-1251; CCEO, can. 882.
87 Cf. ⇒ CIC, can. 222.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText


From this we can see that the Roman Pontiff has the charism of infallability, in and of himself, with regards to making an infallable teaching.

However, the college of bishops always needs the assent of the Pope for one of their teachings to be deemed infallable.


Papal Encyclical Letters and Ecumenical Councils are just two ways in which the infallability of the Magesterium of the Catholic Church has manifested Itself throughout the history of Christianity.


I would like to end with a few verses from Sacred Scripture:


Matthew 16:18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
Matthew 16:19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."


Matthew 18:17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
Matthew 18:18 Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.


1 Timothy 3:15 But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.


I hope that helps.


May God bless you and Mary keep you in her prayers always.


YinandYang

 

[Markea]

A more interesting question, in my opinion, is "is there an infallible way of knowing that an infallible position has been arrived at".

The Lord gives us a very strong 'marker' or indicator imo...

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, He shall testify of Me

For context; this is John's gospel, the one who writes of the Lamb of God who taketh away the sin of the world...

..it's what our LORD said before He willingly went to Calvary, to bear in His own body the sin of the world... something we can't even begin to comprehend.

Listen carefully to people when they're speaking or preaching, because if the Spirit of truth is speaking, then the Lord Jesus Christ (and Him alone) will be exalted and glorified.

Deception is deadly though, in just about every case it is truth mixed with lies... a slight diminishing of some attribute of Christ... and refocusing it upon men... men desire glory... we all do, it's in our corrupt nature.

An example of this imo is Election.. the Lord Jesus Christ is the elect of God. He is the chosen one in whom the Father DELIGHTS... it's not us... it's the Lord Jesus Christ...

But when we simply listen to conversations here in CF which are about election... we rarely find Christ being spoken of... but rather individual men being called the ELECT !

Subtle as can be imo..

 

[Rick Otto]

Not sure I've seen that... anyone singled out as elect, except for derrogation. John Calvin & any pope, for example.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

Vatican II says: ‘The Bishops proclaim Christ’s doctrine infallibly whenever, even though dispersed through the world, they maintain the bond of communion among themselves and with the successor of Peter, authentically teach matters of faith and morals, and are in agreement on one position as definitively to be held.’
Lumen Gentium § 25b.

There are three ways in which a proclamation can be said to been protected from error by the Holy Ghost ~ definition by the pope, an Ecumenical Council and a moral unity of bishops dispersed throughout the world. In order to understand this, let us restate what infallibility is.

Jesus founded His Church and promised that it would continue until the end of time. We are bound to obey our superiors (in all valid and reasonable cases). Given these two suppositions, we can see why the Church must be infallible. If, for instance, Arianism had prevailed and been declared to be true by a Council or the pope, we would be morally bound by faith to hold a belief which is false. The Church would then have fallen and thus Christ would have broken His promise.

The real question, then, is when does the Church define something which must be believed? That was, in part, defined at the First Vatican Council.

I don't believe there has ever been a single infallible decision that would mee this criteria.

To take one example from the website you have quoted, one example of a belief which is infallible based on this third way, the belief that only a man can become a priest. Even if there are modernist dissenters, it doesn't matter because it is something which has already been universally accepted and so thus is not something we can change. The dissenters are spending all this futile energy ~ the Church didn't create the priesthood, so she has no authority to change it.

additionally, I need someone to define what "regarding faith and morals" truly encompasses, as It shifts around like a sapling in a windstorm when you try and pin it down.

God has given us the responsiblity of dominion over His Creation ~ this relates to faith and is contained in the Deposit of Faith (Genesis).

Global warming exists and is anthropogenic. ~ this does not relate to faith.

Contraception is a grave evil. ~ this relates to morals and is evident from the Natural Law

My red leather shoes are rockin' ~ not a statement regarding faith or morals.

I hope this helps!

 

[ebia]

To take one example from the website you have quoted, one example of a belief which is infallible based on this third way, the belief that only a man can become a priest. Even if there are modernist dissenters, it doesn't matter because it is something which has already been universally accepted and so thus is not something we can change. The dissenters are spending all this futile energy ~ the Church didn't create the priesthood, so she has no authority to change it.

That's an interesting one, because some people think its been defined infallible and others do not. Which supports my thesis that there's no infallible way of determining what has been infallibly determined - and therefore its a pretty useless doctrine.

 

[MrPolo]

I know of no Catholic theologian who doesn't at least think the Assumption and Immaculate conception were exercises in Papal Infallibility.

The question of whether any lay person can "infallibly" determine if something has been infallibly taught is a detrimental position to take. Why? Because we all (or most of us) believe the Bible is without error and if we are ever to say all souls are fallible then no one can infallibly say the Bible is infallible.

Of course, the problem that people miss is that only the Holy Spirit is infallible. And it is the Holy Spirit speaking through Scripture or the same Church that identified Scripture. So since only the Holy Spirit is infallible, are we going to instead say the Holy Spirit is fallible because man is too fallible to identify the Spirit's infallibility?

I blogged about this very issue from opponents of the Catholic teaching on infallibility. Feel free to read and enjoy here: Fallacies on Infallibility.

 

[Dark_Lite]

That's an interesting one, because some people think its been defined infallible and others do not. Which supports my thesis that there's no infallible way of determining what has been infallibly determined - and therefore its a pretty useless doctrine.

There are theologians that think all sorts of things. It's pretty hard to argue your way around "I declare that the Church will never have the authority to ordain woman priests," as was penned by John Paul II in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis. Of course, some people attempt to do so anyway. They're of the same mindset as people who try to pretend that the Church doesn't condemn abortion or that abortion isn't a mortal sin according to Catholic doctrine...

 

[MrPolo]

I don't believe there has ever been a single infallible decision that would mee this criteria.

There are many occasions where the collegiality of the Church functioned this way. For example, the Council of Trent did in identifying which books had been identified as Scripture. So I don't see why you would say that violates any of the criteria.

Also from which paragraph are you drawing the "free to express opinion" conclusion? I'd like to see how the Church words it. I don't see that phrase anywhere.

And why exactly are you linking to Lumen Gentium from a website calling for women priests?

 

[ebia]

I know of no Catholic theologian who doesn't at least think the Assumption and Immaculate conception were exercises in Papal Infallibility.

The question of whether any lay person can "infallibly" determine if something has been infallibly taught is a detrimental position to take. Why? Because we all (or most of us) believe the Bible is without error and if we are ever to say all souls are fallible then no one can infallibly say the Bible is infallible.

I am completely convinced the bible is reliable, but I can only say so provisionally - I could be wrong about anything.

 

[MrPolo]

I am completely convinced the bible is reliable, but I can only say so provisionally - I could be wrong about anything.

So you would then also say the idea that the Bible is infallible is also a "useless doctrine"? Or would you, like a Catholic, give the teaching of Scripture your assent of faith regardless of the absence of some fictional metaphysical proof of the Bible's infallibility which would ironically take away your need for faith in the first place?

 

[Markea]

Do you know how I think that the bible proves itself to be infallible ?

Because the entire OT (scripted long before Christ came in the flesh) tells the same story, over and over again.. it foretells the story in every way imaginable, even in a living and powerful way... it reveals the same gospel thematically, prophetically, historically, perfectly, page after page.

All written down before it ever came to pass...

What a conversation it must have been on the road to Emaaus, after the Lord rose from the dead and opened up the scriptures to those two men, wondering about all these things which came to pass there in Jerusalem, the city of the great King... It was all about Him...

It also tells us everything we need to know concerning the future.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

A more interesting question, in my opinion, is "is there an infallible way of knowing that an infallible position has been arrived at".

And could one arrive at an infallible answer if we are all fallible?

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

Vatican II says: ‘The Bishops proclaim Christ’s doctrine infallibly whenever, even though dispersed through the world, they maintain the bond of communion among themselves and with the successor of Peter, authentically teach matters of faith and morals, and are in agreement on one position as definitively to be held.’
Lumen Gentium § 25b.

Five conditions are therefore required:

Collegial action.
It is clear that the bishops must be involved in an exercise of teaching authority as one body.

As ‘judges’.
The bishops must be free to express their own considered opinion.

In service of the faith of the whole Church.
The bishops must listen to the Word of God and the ‘sensus fidelium’.

Regarding faith and morals.
The teaching must concern matters relating to the object of faith.

In a teaching consciously imposed as ‘definitive’.
The bishops must want to impose the doctrine as definitely to be held.


I don't believe there has ever been a single infallible decision that would mee this criteria.


additionally, I need someone to define what "regarding faith and morals" truly encompasses, as It shifts around like a sapling in a windstorm when you try and pin it down.

The Church teaches infallibly any time it comes from the Holy Spirit. Doctrines are put forth infallibly by the Councils and the Pope.

I am not sure where you are coming up with those conditions.