Are 'Sin' and 'Works' Virtually Arbitrary?

[cvanwey]

Under the Christian doctrine, it would seem the only unforgivable 'sin' is unbelief. It would
also seem the only necessary 'work(s)' is/are accepting God's gift, and maybe baptism.

Does this render all other 'sin' and 'works' arbitrary?

 

[HTacianas]

Under the Christian doctrine, it would seem the only unforgivable 'sin' is unbelief. It would
also seem the only necessary 'work(s)' is/are accepting God's gift, and maybe baptism.

Does this render all other 'sin' and 'works' arbitrary?

You should modify that to read "under the doctrine of some Protestant groups...".

 

[cvanwey]

You should modify that to read "under the doctrine of some Protestant groups...".

No I 'should' not.

If you find all other 'sin' and 'works' are not actually arbitrary, then please make your case.

Regardless of the fact that we have multiple denominations, it's still safe to say you are ALL required to at least believe, accept His gift, and maybe even be baptized. If you feel this is still not enough, then state your case.

 

[HTacianas]

No I 'should' not.

If you find all other 'sin' and 'works' are not actually arbitrary, then please make your case.

Regardless of the fact that we have multiple denominations, it's still safe to say you are ALL required to at least believe, accept His gift, and maybe even be baptized. If you feel this is still not enough, then state your case.

It has been the doctrine of Christianity since the beginning that belief, repentance, baptism, chrismation, and participation in the sacraments of the Church are necessary. After that, we are judged based on our works. There are any number of more modern Protestant groups who believe otherwise.

Sin "is the transgression of the law", see 1 John 3:4. "Works" has several different uses in the new testament.

 

[cvanwey]

It has been the doctrine of Christianity since the beginning that belief, repentance, baptism, chrismation, and participation in the sacraments of the Church are necessary. After that, we are judged based on our works. There are any number of more modern Protestant groups who believe otherwise.

Thank you for making a case. Let's explore...

My prior point states the apparent bare minimum, or the common denominator for all Christian sects looks to at least be belief, accepting His gift, and baptism. And yes, many denominations seem to suggest this is still not enough - (apparently like you).

Your position is that 'sin' and 'works', however you wish to define these terms, are not arbitrary. Okay. Let's look at your argument then... (i.e.) " 'Sin' and 'works' do matter, and are not merely arbitrary. God judges these parameters too."

Now my response....

'Sin' and 'works' still appear arbitrary. Why? First of all, all your other sins are forgivable. Unbelief, not accepting His gift, and not being baptized, will NOT be forgiven. God will not offer His grace to those individuals anyways.

Secondly, you will not be able to repent of all sin. You will also not always choose good works. You will always fall short. God hates all sin. This is the rebuttal argument from the Protestant group. Since you are a sinner, no matter what, God instead offers His grace to cover all your shortcomings.

Alternatively, under Catholicism or other, you will be perpetually worried about atoning for each and every 'sin', prior to death. And if God still offers up some type of 'pardon', for the ones you missed atonement, then those 'sins' were/are still arbitrary.

Under your belief system, God is still required to offer His grace. Meaning, allowing you in, when you do not deserve it - (by complete atonement)...

The best YOU can argue, is that God judges your willingness to try. However, you will still sin and not always do good works anyways. Just the same as the unbeliever... Hence, we are right back to the Protestant argument. --> God offers His grace for all, and all that is required is belief, accepting His gift, and baptism.

I again ask, under the Christian doctrine, are virtually all sin and works arbitrary?

 

[Kenny'sID]

Under the Christian doctrine, it would seem the only unforgivable 'sin' is unbelief.

You've been listening to people who choose to listen to people who make up their own unforgivable sin because they dont like the real one. And with many teaching what you mention, it's understandable one would get it wrong.

The biblical US:

Matthew 12:30-32: "Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, any sin and blasphemy can be forgiven. But blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

 

[cvanwey]

You've been listening to people who choose to listen to people who make up their own unforgivable sin because they dont like the real one. And with many teaching what you mention, it's understandable one would get it wrong.

The biblical US:

Matthew 12:30-32: "Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, any sin and blasphemy can be forgiven. But blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

Sounds like you too just reaffirmed my suspicion even more. Under your chosen Verse(s), even less may be required for salvation. "Sin' and 'works' appear even more arbitrary, under your chosen portion of Scripture. Do you agree? If not, why not? Please make your case.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Sounds like you too just reaffirmed my suspicion even more. Under your chosen Verse(s), even less may be required for salvation. "Sin' and 'works' appear even more arbitrary, under your chosen portion of Scripture. Do you agree? If not, why not? Please make your case.

Na, wasnt really interested in the discussion, just thought you might appreciate the correction.

 

[cvanwey]

Na, wasnt really interested in the discussion, just thought you might appreciate the correction.

I see no "correction", given I can also manifest Scripture to warrant my OP, (and not merely the hearsay of others), which asserts the necessity for belief and baptism.

Since you are opting not to respond, I will just assume you agree with my conclusion, as given. "Sin" and "works" are virtually arbitrary.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I see no "correction", given I can also manifest Scripture to warrant my OP, (and not merely the hearsay of others), which asserts the necessity for belief and baptism.

Since you are opting not to respond, I will just assume you agree with my conclusion, as given. "Sin" and "works" are virtually arbitrary.

Assume whatever you like, but for me, drawing conclusions with no evidence at all, is pretty reckless.

 

[cvanwey]

Assume whatever you like, but for me, drawing conclusions with no evidence at all, is pretty reckless.

You bothered to intervene on a discussion, which further looks to implicate (even less) accountability for 'sin' and 'works'. I don't find this conclusion 'reckless'. If you care to engage, please do. If not, the conclusion stands, as only you presented.

 

[Moral Orel]

I predict that the folks who insisted salvation is a gift that requires nothing in the other thread will not respond to this thread.

 

[cvanwey]

I predict that the folks who insisted salvation is a gift that requires nothing in the other thread will not respond to this thread.

You are likely spot on here...

Which begs a follow up question for them... If all that matters is accepting a gift, shouldn't the Bible be a "one pager"?

 

[Soyeong]

Under the Christian doctrine, it would seem the only unforgivable 'sin' is unbelief. It would
also seem the only necessary 'work(s)' is/are accepting God's gift, and maybe baptism.

Does this render all other 'sin' and 'works' arbitrary?

We need to believe the truth and use the truth a guide for how to live our lives, however, the truth is not arbitrary, but rather God's nature is truth and part of the content of His gift is being trained by grace to live in a way that testifies about the truth. The Mosaic Law is truth because it is God's instructions for how to testify about His nature (Psalms 119:142), and Jesus is the exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), which he testified about through setting a sinless example of how to do good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so Jesus is the truth made flesh (John 14:6-11). The Mosaic Law is God's instructions for equipping us to do every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17), so partaking in God's nature through doing good works in obedience to it is what it looks like to believe the truth and to accept God's gift, while disobedience to the Mosaic Law is what unbelief and sin look like (1 John 3:4).

What we believe is expressed through our actions, which is why James 2:17-18 says that faith without works is dead and that he would show his faith by his works, so doing good works in obedience to God is what faith looks like, which is also why Jesus said in Matthew 23:23 that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Mosaic Law, and why every example of faith listed in Hebrews 11 is also an example of works. In Romans 6:19-23, no longer presenting ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin is contrasted with now presenting ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God, so obedience to the Mosaic Law is what it looks like to accept God's gift of salvation. In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, in Romans 1:5, we have received grace to bring about the obedience of faith, and in Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, which is what the Mosaic Law was given to instruct how to do, so God graciously teaching us to obey it is again itself part of the content of God's gift of salvation. Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of the Mosaic Law, so being trained by grace to live in obedience to it through faith is what it looks like to accept the gift of Jesus saving us from living in transgression of it.

In Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Mosaic Law, in John 16:13, the Spirit has the role of leading us in truth, and again the Mosaic Law is truth. In John 8:31-36, it is sin in transgression of the Mosaic Law that puts us in bondage while it is the truth that sets us free. In John 17:17, God’s word is truth, and the Mosaic Law is God’s word (Deuteronomy 5:31-33). In 2 Timothy 3:8, those who oppose the truth also oppose Moses, being of corrupted minds, and disqualified in regard to the faith. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to the Mosaic Law. In Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Mosaic Law, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are aspects of God's nature that are in accordance with it.

 

[cvanwey]

We need to believe the truth and use the truth a guide for how to live our lives, however, the truth is not arbitrary, but rather God's nature is truth and part of the content of His gift is being trained by grace to live in a way that testifies about the truth. The Mosaic Law is truth because it is God's instructions for how to testify about His nature (Psalms 119:142), and Jesus is the exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), which he testified about through setting a sinless example of how to do good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so Jesus is the truth made flesh (John 14:6-11). The Mosaic Law is God's instructions for equipping us to do every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17), so partaking in God's nature through doing good works in obedience to it is what it looks like to believe the truth and to accept God's gift, while disobedience to the Mosaic Law is what unbelief and sin look like (1 John 3:4).

What we believe is expressed through our actions, which is why James 2:17-18 says that faith without works is dead and that he would show his faith by his works, so doing good works in obedience to God is what faith looks like, which is also why Jesus said in Matthew 23:23 that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Mosaic Law, and why every example of faith listed in Hebrews 11 is also an example of works. In Romans 6:19-23, no longer presenting ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin is contrasted with now presenting ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God, so obedience to the Mosaic Law is what it looks like to accept God's gift of salvation. In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, in Romans 1:5, we have received grace to bring about the obedience of faith, and in Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, which is what the Mosaic Law was given to instruct how to do, so God graciously teaching us to obey it is again itself part of the content of God's gift of salvation. Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of the Mosaic Law, so being trained by grace to live in obedience to it through faith is what it looks like to accept the gift of Jesus saving us from living in transgression of it.

In Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Mosaic Law, in John 16:13, the Spirit has the role of leading us in truth, and again the Mosaic Law is truth. In John 8:31-36, it is sin in transgression of the Mosaic Law that puts us in bondage while it is the truth that sets us free. In John 17:17, God’s word is truth, and the Mosaic Law is God’s word (Deuteronomy 5:31-33). In 2 Timothy 3:8, those who oppose the truth also oppose Moses, being of corrupted minds, and disqualified in regard to the faith. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to the Mosaic Law. In Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Mosaic Law, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are aspects of God's nature that are in accordance with it.

It would appear the only unforgivable action(s) is not believing, not accepting His gift, and not being baptized. Please see post #5. In a nutshell, God's grace may be required to cover the rest. In such a case, 'sin' and 'works', outside belief, accepting a gift, and baptism, are arbitrary.

 

[All Becomes New]

No, because we exist in time.

 

[All Becomes New]

Regardless of the fact that we have multiple denominations, it's still safe to say you are ALL required to at least believe, accept His gift, and maybe even be baptized. If you feel this is still not enough, then state your case.

No, it's not enough to only believe. We have to be born again. It's a gift of God, meaning, we did nothing ourselves to get it. A lot of people "believe" but that doesn't mean they are saved.

James 2:14 ¶ What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith obut does not have works? Can that faith save him?

I don't expect you to understand the above as it makes it look like works are necessary for salvation when we only have works, we can only please God, if we are regenerated. And we can't regenerate ourselves.

 

[cvanwey]

No, it's not enough to only believe. We have to be born again. It's a gift of God, meaning, we did nothing ourselves to get it. A lot of people "believe" but that doesn't mean they are saved.

How do you know if you are 'born again'? I asked for God to come into my life for decades, and I felt nothing. What does being 'born again' mean and feel like?

Alternatively, how do you know you are not mistaken???

James 2:14 ¶ What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith obut does not have works? Can that faith save him?
I don't expect you to understand the above as it makes it look like works are necessary for salvation when we only have works, we can only please God, if we are regenerated. And we can't regenerate ourselves.

I feel I do understand. The passage insinuates that a true believer would also be compelled to do 'good works' - works that God would approve.

However, since we humans will always fall short, we still require God's grace to cover all our shortcomings. Am I close?

Assuming I'm close, then God's grace, for all our shortcomings, looks to render the topics of 'sin' and 'works' arbitrary. God ONLY does not offer grace for the unbelievers, the ones whom do not repent, and the ones whom do not worship Him. God offers infinite grace for the rest of our sins and lack of works. This makes virtually all 'sin' and 'works' arbitrary.

 

[All Becomes New]

How do you know if you are 'born again'? I asked for God to come into my life for decades, and I felt nothing. What does being 'born again' mean and feel like?

Alternatively, how do you know you are not mistaken???



I feel I do understand. The passage insinuates that a true believer would also be compelled to do 'good works' - works that God would approve.

However, since we humans will always fall short, we still require God's grace to cover all our shortcomings. Am I close?

Assuming I'm close, then God's grace, for all our shortcomings, looks to render the topics of 'sin' and 'works' arbitrary. God ONLY does not offer grace for the unbelievers, the ones whom do not repent, and the ones whom do not worship Him. God offers infinite grace for the rest of our sins and lack of works. This makes virtually all 'sin' and 'works' arbitrary.

As simple test to see if you have been saved, are being saved, and will be saved, is if you actually care about doing the will of God. Salvation is a heart issue, not a deeds and works issue.

 

[cvanwey]

As simple test to see if you have been saved, are being saved, and will be saved, is if you actually care about doing the will of God. Salvation is a heart issue, not a deeds and works issue.

What exactly is the 'will of God'? You accused me of attempting to know what God thinks. So how would I know what God wants, without knowing what He thinks?

And BTW, you skipped an awful lot in that last response. Is there a reason for this?