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are SDAs the only ones?

David Conklin

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I just posted an article I found on the net... it is your job to disprove it...
That's not logical--those who make the claim have the burden of proof.* You assumed that it was true, therefore the burden lies with you.

* From Wiki:

"When debating any issue, there is an implicit burden of proof on the person asserting a claim. "If this responsibility or burden of proof is shifted to a critic, the fallacy of appealing to ignorance is committed".[1] "
 
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David Conklin

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BTW do you have prove for the contrary?

otherwise I think I am innocent unless proven otherwise...

Do you know Paulson personally? if so, go ahead and ask him, I dont know the dude, so I cant really ask him...
See previous post. Last question is irrelevant.

I won't be falling for your bait-and-switch questions that followed the above.
 
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Pythons

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Under God: Seventh-Day Adventists and abortion - Julia Duin

according to this article SDAs are the only ones who are involved in murder... hope I am not gonna throw up today as the mere thought is disgusting to me, I mean I have spent a lot of time in the church not knowing about mass murder being practiced... there were times that I even gave some of my money for some hospital projects... not knowing that this money is gonna be used to erect some facilities that will kill the unborn...

but to my excuse I can say that I didnt know... maybe I should have done some research but Hey, who would suspect that is taking place...

I told my mother yesterday... she couldnt believe it at first... that was about that Feldkamp butcher... she knew the story about that plane crash and how God made it happen in order to send out a warning to all those abortionists...

but when I told her that it was actuall SDA who died in that plane crash and the owner of that butcher stores was an SDA, she didnt believe me (at first that is)

it wasnt until I told her that the church in general perform abortions in their hospitals...

you know what she said?

Sodom and gomorrah... (and my mother was always highly pro-adventism and apparently highly pro-life)

I think this will have opened her eyes a little bit...

what I thought about yesterday is all that bashing against the catholic church and stuff, but in this regard I would say the catholics are miles ahead of SDAs! Catholics might have killed many during the crusades and stuff. ok, that wasnt good...

but abortion IMHO is some sort of pagan god worship... otherwise known as Child sacrifice, it may not be intentional, but you know, I think the devil is proud of this! he must really like it...

and if there is no other church that is up to the task, wow... the SDAs are truly exclusive, one of a kind!

The SDA concept of 'the remnant church' is at play in this thing.....
...Because the majority of ALL the other churches are against abortion.
...To SDA's would indicate being against abortion is "apostate" OR "Babylon" - thus SDA's offer abortion.
....Because the fallen or wordly papal church condemn abortion.


The SDA church publically repudiated the Council of Nicaea in their publications throughout Ellen White's life....
....And one of the reasons was because all the fallen churches accepted it.
....Thus the creed was Babylon & apostate.
....The abortion issue is no different.
 
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JohnMarsten

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The SDA concept of 'the remnant church' is at play in this thing.....
...Because the majority of ALL the other churches are against abortion.
...To SDA's would indicate being against abortion is "apostate" OR "Babylon" - thus SDA's offer abortion.
....Because the fallen or wordly papal church condemn abortion.


The SDA church publically repudiated the Council of Nicaea in their publications throughout Ellen White's life....
....And one of the reasons was because all the fallen churches accepted it.
....Thus the creed was Babylon & apostate.
....The abortion issue is no different.

Hey there Pythons...

Yep, that abortion thing really hit me... I still wasnt able to recompose myself ;) yes, a true remnant church... and abortion being part of it...
 
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Stryder06

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The SDA concept of 'the remnant church' is at play in this thing.....
...Because the majority of ALL the other churches are against abortion.
...To SDA's would indicate being against abortion is "apostate" OR "Babylon" - thus SDA's offer abortion.
....Because the fallen or wordly papal church condemn abortion.

What are you talking about? You speak as if you've polled the Adventist church and discovered that the majority of us are in favor of abortion. This statement makes no sense. Being "babylon" has much more to do with than abortion.

The SDA church publically repudiated the Council of Nicaea in their publications throughout Ellen White's life....
....And one of the reasons was because all the fallen churches accepted it.
....Thus the creed was Babylon & apostate.
....The abortion issue is no different.

It is much different. Thanks for trying though.
 
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JohnMarsten

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What are you talking about? You speak as if you've polled the Adventist church and discovered that the majority of us are in favor of abortion. This statement makes no sense. Being "babylon" has much more to do with than abortion.



It is much different. Thanks for trying though.

The question is

does being a member of a church mean that you are in favor of something that the organization is in favor of?

could we agree that being a member of the nazi party didnt necessarily mean you were in favor of senseless killing...?
 
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Stryder06

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The question is

does being a member of a church mean that you are in favor of something that the organization is in favor of?

Edit:
This is not correct.

could we agree that being a member of the nazi party didnt necessarily mean you were in favor of senseless killing...?
Not sure why you keep trying to make this correlation.
 
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Stryder06

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so you are in favor of abortion... thats what you said...

That's not what I said. And I'm pretty sure I've said that already. Again, what point are you trying to make?

Do you think that because the church has hospitals that do abortions, we ought to leave it? Is that where this is going?
 
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Stryder06

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so you are in favor of abortion... thats what you said...

sorry, I reread your statement and for some reason I saw a "not" in the sentence, which is why I said that it was correct. Belonging to an organization does not mean that you are in favor of everything it does.
 
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JohnMarsten

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sorry, I reread your statement and for some reason I saw a "not" in the sentence, which is why I said that it was correct. Belonging to an organization does not mean that you are in favor of everything it does.

OK ;) thats what I thought ;)

sure....
 
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JohnMarsten

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>does being a member of a church mean that you are in favor of something that the organization is in favor of?

And what does the SDA church favor that we shouldn't?

it favors the turning of a blind eye to abortion and even offers the service of it... do you think thats OK?
 
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David Conklin

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So if the pregnancy was killing the mother you'd kill the mother rather than abort?

The SDA _Church_ does NOT turn a blind eye to abortion--that is a lie. Contra other churches who play the Pharisee and judge and condemn others who have had an abortion the guidelines suggested by the GC takes an uplifting approach:

"The Church should offer gracious support to those who personally face the decision concerning an abortion. Attitudes of condemnation are inappropriate in those who have accepted the gospel. Christians are commissioned to become a loving, caring community of faith that assists those in crisis as alternatives are considered."

Would you prefer that they threw a brick?
 
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JohnMarsten

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So if the pregnancy was killing the mother you'd kill the mother rather than abort?

The SDA _Church_ does NOT turn a blind eye to abortion--that is a lie. Contra other churches who play the Pharisee and judge and condemn others who have had an abortion the guidelines suggested by the GC takes an uplifting approach:

"The Church should offer gracious support to those who personally face the decision concerning an abortion. Attitudes of condemnation are inappropriate in those who have accepted the gospel. Christians are commissioned to become a loving, caring community of faith that assists those in crisis as alternatives are considered."

Would you prefer that they threw a brick?

very uplifting indeed,

just out of curiosity, because as a human I might be just plain wrong, so you are implying that the SDA performs abortions only when the life of the mother is at stake? right? is that the truth? is that it?

Because if thats the truth, then I have nothing left but humbly apologize, for my misunderstanding, and my causing confusion around here... I somehow understood that they perform abortions in general, no matter which condition the mother is in, and I somehow understood that there are people in the church who are said to have made a fortune but I might be wrong here...

please, David, correct my error and tell me I was wrong, because in this regard I would really like to be wrong...
 
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David Conklin

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Why is a lie uplifting?

>you are implying that the SDA performs abortions only when the life of the mother is at stake? right? is that the truth? is that it?

Did I say so?

>I somehow understood that they perform abortions in general,

Where'd it say that? Just because a committee issues guidelines? Where's the logic?

>I somehow understood that there are people in the church who are said to have made a fortune

Where's the proof? On what basis did you arrive at that "understanding"?
 
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JohnMarsten

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OK David

let this be my final attempt in regard to the matter of abortion, as of now I have cooled down a little and probably overcome the shock of recognition.

so lets try it one more time

and please try to bear with me a little cause I probably dont have the same level of education as you and might get things mixed up from time to time, and you seem to be very resourceful when I (or somebody else) have mixed up a word, used it in a different context (but thats just my observation or I am just not intelligent enough to have a discussion with you)

SO I understand that there are doctrines and guidelines in the church...

for starters, I understand that a doctrine is more than a guideline

and a guideline is some sort of advise that doesnt necessarily need to be observed, (like in that pirates of the carribean movie)

question (and please honestly correct me or just answer me):

abstinence from alcohol is not a doctrine, its a guideline

abstinence from homosexuality is not a doctrine, its a guideline

abortion may not be the best solution but its up to the individual (the individuals conscience and their relationship with God) and in case the life of the mother should be at stake its absolutely OK (or the lesser evil if you will) - do I understand the guideline correctly here?

if so - what is the application of the guideline? in regard to SDA hospitals?

are they prepared to perform abortion if the life of the individual is at stake (ONLY) or are they generally up to the task, performing abortions at all times (that is if the conscience of the individual has decided so)

now in regard to Irving Feldkamp - is he an SDA (a proper member of the SDA) who is, among other business ventures, the owner of 17 abortion clinics (private ones that is, not SDA affiliated)

- another question - if the answer to the above question is positive - would it be the same if an SDA (a proper one) owned a bar or a restaurant where liquor (and/or unclean animals are being served) - I mean would be as OK as it is OK for Feldkamp to own that clinics?

Lets stick with these for now... and just btw, maybe I am not capable of leading an honest discussion but I must say that I am eager to learn and maybe this would be a nice occasion... anyway lets see what your answer will be and maybe you will have some comments here or there on how to make an honest discussion more meaningful or just some tips on how to do it better, maybe you could correct some mistakes of mine




















Why is a lie uplifting?

>you are implying that the SDA performs abortions only when the life of the mother is at stake? right? is that the truth? is that it?

Did I say so?

>I somehow understood that they perform abortions in general,

Where'd it say that? Just because a committee issues guidelines? Where's the logic?

>I somehow understood that there are people in the church who are said to have made a fortune

Where's the proof? On what basis did you arrive at that "understanding"?
 
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O

OntheDL

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John,

The Adventist health care system is legally a separate entity from the General Conference. This came about the when the healthcare system (hospitals) was under heavy debt in the 90s. The fear of default would threaten to bring down the whole denomination (on GC assets) put forth the legal separation. So GC fought hard to separate herself from healthcare system.

You know I'm critical of GC and their apostasy and back-sliding. But in this case, GC really can't dictate to the SDA hospitals on their medical practices.
 
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