Are Revelation 12:6 & Revelation 12:14 the same events or different events?

ewq1938 said:

Why would God protect her from Satan two times if she was just going to turn into Babylon anyways?

Click to expand...

So that Abraham's seed could come to fulfillment. Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

ewq1938 said:

That happened before she was protected two times so God saved her because she is not a harlot but is faithful. There is zero evidence for her abandoning God. She is so protected by God Satan is forced to go after the remnant of her seed instead of her.

Click to expand...

Not following your reasoning. I am not a Dispensational Futurist so we will go round and round on this.
Blessings

ewq1938 said:

The details of the text do not support your reasoning regarding Christ. After Christ Ascended, this woman is protected two different times. Again, no evidence that this woman ever abandons God. Everything we know of her is she is faithful and loved by God and this is after the ascension of Christ. She must represent faithful Israel not apostate Israel.

Click to expand...

You will need to do a bit more research on the "woman" starting with the Old Testament. Revelation quotes from the OT much of the time. Faithful Israel are Christians in the Body of Christ.

ewq1938 said:

All research concludes that the woman in Rev 12 is not a harlot in any sense. It's not Apostate Israel nor Jerusalem.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

God loves this woman and the dragon hates her. That alone proves your theory about her to be wrong.

Click to expand...

Ok, but I do not agree, so we will leave it at that.

ewq1938 said:

Yes it does.

Rev_9:12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
Rev_11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
All speaking of the 3 woe trumpets.

Click to expand...

Mat 24:19
“But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
Mar 13:17
“But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
Luk 21:23
“But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.

Jude 1:11
Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.

Joshua 6 [7 Priests-7 trumpets-shofars] and Revelation [7 Messengers-7 trumpets]


Revelation 8:13 And I saw and I hear an eagle<105> flying in mid heaven, saying to a great voice,
"Woe! Woe! Woe! to those dwelling on the land from out of rest of voices/soundings of the trumpet, of the three Messengers being about to trumpeting<4534>"
================================
Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterist Eschatology and Preterism

CAST OF CHARACTERS: Roman: Emperor Nero | General Vespasian | General Titus | The Roman Army || Jewish: General / Historian Josephus | Factional Leaders in Jerusalem || Administrators of Roman Judea Targets: Jerusalem | Herod's Temple // Maps of the Roman Invasion // Theological Timeline

CHRONOLOGY IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING THE WAR
================================
Revelation 8 Commentary- Plagued by Trumpets

The Roman Assault on Israel Began around the Feast of Trumpets Hence the Seven Trumpets of Revelation—Thus Began the Jewish War.

In A.D. 66 while Judea was aflame in bloodshed, riot and revolt, Rome responded by sending the 12th legion in addition to thousands of auxiliaries from neighboring kingdoms. These troops, as if orchestrated by God, arrived in Jerusalem in the Jewish month of Tishri, a month that begins with the Feast of Trumpets. Called the Day of Judgment, it is on this day that trumpets sound the somber days of atonement and final judgment (Leviticus 23:24, Numbers 29:1). Thus began the Jewish War.3
The A.D. 70 Doctrine View, Interpretation, Exposition and Commentary of Revelation 8: In Every Event that Fulfills the Seven Trumpets of Revelation an Audible Trumpet Sound Was Heard.
===========================
The Sound Of The Trumpet

The Apostle Paul used the Roman military trumpet as a metaphor for spiritual battle. First-century historian Josephus wrote that the Roman army did nothing, except by trumpet signals. He listed three specific trumpet sounds, all of which can be devotionally applied.

The first trumpet was a signal to prepare to depart. "Now when they are to go out of their camp, the trumpet gives a sound."(1) The Bible believer should be ready to depart swiftly for any field of conflict as ordered, always ready to fight the good fight of faith (1 Tim. 6:12; 2 Tim. 4:7).

The second trumpet was a signal to form up: "Then do the trumpets sound again, to order them to get ready for the march."(1) At this stage, a believer should have on the whole armor of God. The Lord wants skilled warriors, lined up with others, who will do battle against the wiles of the Devil (Eph. 6:11).

The third trumpet sound was the order to march: "Then do the trumpets give a sound a third time, that they are to go out."(1) Some have suggested that this is the equivalent of "the last trumpet" that Paul referred to in 1 Corinthians 15:52 concerning the Rapture of the church: Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed (1 Cor. 15:51-52).

This trumpet may also point to the personal resolve of a believer to march out to serve Christ, to stand against all challenges to God's kingdom, and to be willing to endure hardships like a good soldier (2 Tim. 2:3).
===================================
You can hear Roman trumpets being blown at about the 2 and half minutes mark in this vid......

DavidPT said:

There would be no reason for 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 to be occurring in the middle of the 70th week. That's Pretrib, regardless that some might call it midtrib instead. Obviously the GT is the last half of the 70th week, and if the resurrection of the dead and the rapture of the church take place somewhere around the middle of the 70th week, that is Pretrib, thus there is no such thing as midtrib, as if midtrib were different than pretrib somehow.

Click to expand...

Pre-trib - is more accurately pre-70th week, because them holding the view assert that the 70th week is the tribulation period in their vocabulary. I don't use the term the tribulation or the tribulation period. I am just pointing out what the proponents of the pre-trib and mid-trib views are basing their terminology.

Both pre-trib and mid-trib terms are not based on the "Great Tribulation", the last half of the 70th week, as you have pointed out. What is important though is to note the concepts of what pre-trib and mid-trib are, albeit the labels are misleading imo.

DavidPT said:

Except I don't see the bowls of wrath occurring during a time, times, and the dividing of time.

Click to expand...

Why not? The last of the bowls of God's wrath, will be just before Jesus descends to the earth.

I view the bowls of God's wrath to be spread over the time, times, half time. I cannot detail where each will be on a timeline, though.

DavidPT said:

And besides, if once the trump has sounded, and that it is then said to be the time of the dead, that implies a resurrection. There would be no reason for 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 to be occurring in the middle of the 70th week.

Click to expand...

It said to be the time of the judgment of the dead. Which would mean that a resurrection has taken place. What it doesn't identify is when that resurrection will have happened.

The resurrection/rapture of 1Thessalonian 4:13-18 could have taken place before the 70th week began. Or maybe later into the 70th week, right up to the day that the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood.

DavidPT said:

Here's a question I would like to get opinions on from non Premils. In Revelation 12:2-17, roughly how much time do you conclude all of that covers?

Click to expand...

It begins with a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the wicked angels who followed him.

It makes reference to the birth, and death of Christ.

It runs up through the persecution of the New Covenant Church, right before the return of Christ.

DavidPT said:

I'm uncertain what you mean here. Are you meaning the war in heaven occurred before God even made man in the beginning? Once satan and his angels are cast out, satan then finds himself cast unto the earth at the time, having great wrath because he knows he has but a short time. What I deduce from the text, the war in heaven has to occur around the same timeframe, and not thousands of years earlier instead.

Click to expand...

We do not know exactly when Satan fell, but it would have to be after the creation.

Some people on this forum think Satan is still in the third heaven, in the presence of God.

The two verse below prove otherwise.


2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


Jud_1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.


The wicked angels are now denied the light of God's glory.

Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

.

BABerean2 said: ↑
It begins with a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the wicked angels who followed him.

Click to expand...

DavidPT said: ↑
I'm uncertain what you mean here. Are you meaning the war in heaven occurred before God even made man in the beginning? Once satan and his angels are cast out, satan then finds himself cast unto the earth at the time, having great wrath because he knows he has but a short time. What I deduce from the text, the war in heaven has to occur around the same timeframe, and not thousands of years earlier instead.

Click to expand...

BABerean2 said:

We do not know exactly when Satan fell, but it would have to be after the creation.

Some people on this forum think Satan is still in the third heaven, in the presence of God.

The two verse below prove otherwise.

2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
Jud_1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
The wicked angels are now denied the light of God's glory.
Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Click to expand...

Would make for a good discussion........

Luke 10:18 Star or Lightening?

Luke 10:18 and he said to them, `I beheld the Satan/Adversary, as lightening/bright-star/astraphn <796> from/out-of the heaven having fallen/pesonta <4098> [Revelation 9:1?]

Revelation 12:9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil/Accuser and Satan/Adversary, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Dan 8:10 And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them.
Dan 8:13 Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, “How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?”

Click to expand...

The 7 TRUMPETS of REVELATION STUDY

Revelation 9:1 And the fifth Messenger trumpets, and I saw a star/astera <792> out of the heaven having fallen/peptwkota <4098> to the land, and there was given to it the key of the pit of the abyss,

Romans 16:20 The yet God of the Peace shall be crushing the Satan under the feet of ye in swiftness/tacei <5034> . The grace of the Lord of us, Jesus Christ, with ye.
===========================
When did, "Satan fall from Heaven like lightning." Luke 10:18?

• Revelation 12 (in my opinion) has the best clue's to answer the question,but i cannot understand why it is seldom used to answer the question,regarding Satan falling from heaven like lightning.I do not believe that Isaiah 14:-12 is connected to Satan being hurled from heaven to earth,but i can see why many people think this. – Bagpipes Dec 23 '15 at 14:23
• 
  I think Rev 12 isn't pressed into service because many would think that Luke wouldn't know it -- or put another way, it is far more likely that the vision of Rev 12 has been influenced by Luke 10, and so Rev can't be used to explain Luke. The comment in the other Isa 14 question doesn't depend on Isaiah, btw - rather simply on the syntax of the Greek in Luke 10 itself. FWIW! – Dɑvïd Dec 23 '15 at 18:05

Bengel's Gnomen
Luke 10:18. Ἐθεώρουν, I was beholding) viz. in spirit: at the time when ye went forth, or when ye acted.[94]—Ὡς ἈΣΤΡΑΠῊΝ, as lightning) with the utmost rapidity.—ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ, from heaven) in which Satan seems to have been accusing the little ones, i.e. the disciples.—πέσοντα) falling headlong (or rushing): and this, either, he had been banished by force out of heaven (certainly Satan at that time received many strokes, even through the instrumentality of those little ones; in which view the ἐθεώρουν, I was beholding, signifies, that the disciples themselves in some measure had acted against Satan, the Lord beholding them all the time, and rejoicing that He is conquering Satan through them as His instruments): or else, because he (Satan) had obtained permission to resist the disciples, by whom Satan was to be overcome; and he had hastened to come to the succour of the demons which obey him, and to support (prop up) his bad cause. Comp. Luke 10:19. At all events πεσεῖν, with which comp. Acts 27:26, LXX. ΣΥΜΠΊΠΤΕΙΝ, פאט, 1 Chronicles 14:9; 1 Chronicles 14:13, is not always the same as ΒΛΗΘῆΝΑΙ; Revelation 12:9.[95] Action in heaven includes action on earth, not vice versa.[96] The image, as lightning, is in consonance: and it is not until afterwards that Satan is said to be about to be cast out: John 12:31.

[94] When ye were actually preaching and performing the miracles which I enabled you to perform.—ED. and TRANSL.

[95] Where ἐβλήθη ὁ δράκων refers to the forcible ejection of the dragon, which was to be long subsequent.—ED. and TRANSL.

[96] Therefore it does not follow that because demons were cast out on earth, therefore Satan was cast out from heaven.—ED. and TRANSL.
=========
Pulpit Commentary
Verse 18. - And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. The Lord's words here were prophetic rather than descriptive of what had taken, or was then taking place. The seventy were telling him their feelings of joy at finding that his Name in their months enabled them to cast out evil spirits from the possessed. Their Master replied in an exalted and exultant strain - strange and rare sounds on the lips of the Man of sorrows - telling them how he had been looking - not on a few spirits of evil driven out of unhappy men, but on the king and chief of all evil falling from his sad eminence and throne of power like a flash of lightning. Jesus Christ saw, in the first success of these poor servants of his, an earnest of that wonderful and mighty victory which his followers, simply armed with the power of his Name, would shortly win over paganism. He saw, too, in the dim far future, many a contest with and victory over evil in its many forms. He looked on, we may well believe, to the final defeat which at length his servants, when they should have learned the true use and the resistless power of that glorious Name of his, should win over the restless enemy of the souls of men.

Vincent's Word Studies
I beheld (ἐθεώρουν)
The verb denotes calm, intent, continuous contemplation of an object which remains before the spectator. So John 1:14, we beheld, implying that Jesus' stay upon earth, though brief, was such that his followers could calmly and leisurely contemplate his glory. Compare John 2:23 :" they beheld his miracles," thoughtfully and attentively. Here it denotes the rapt contemplation of a vision. The imperfect, was beholding, refers either to the time when the seventy were sent forth, or to the time of the triumphs which they are here relating. "While you were expelling the sub-ordinates, I was beholding the Master fall" (Godet). The Revisers do not seem to have had any settled principle in their rendering of this word throughout the New Testament. See my article on the Revised New Testament, Presbyterian Review, October, 1881, p. 646 sq.

Satan
A transcription of the Hebrew word, derived from a verb to lie in wait or oppose. Hence an adversary. In this sense, of David, 1 Samuel 29:4, and of the angel who met Balaam, Numbers 22:22. Compare Zechariah 3:1, Zechariah 3:2; Job 1, Job 2:1-13. Διάβλος, devil, is the more common term in the New Testament. In Revelation 12:9, both terms are applied to him.

As lightning

Describing vividly a dazzling brilliance suddenly quenched.
===========================

DavidPT said:

Since it appears you think Revelation 12:2-17 spans at least 2000 years, and that you believe satan's thousand year binding fits during this same 2000 years, can you point out where in Revelation 12:2-17 that Revelation 20:1-3 initially fits? Of the 16 verses in Revelation 12:2-17, between which verses do you propose Revelation 20:1-3 initially fits, as in when the beginning of the thousand year binding starts?

((Does Revelation 20:1-3 initially start here?))
Revelation 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
((Does Revelation 20:1-3 initially start here?))
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
((Does Revelation 20:1-3 initially start here?))
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
((Does Revelation 20:1-3 initially start here?))
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
((Does Revelation 20:1-3 initially start here?))
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
((Does Revelation 20:1-3 initially start here?))
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
((Does Revelation 20:1-3 initially start here?))
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
((Does Revelation 20:1-3 initially start here?))
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
((Does Revelation 20:1-3 initially start here?))
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
((Does Revelation 20:1-3 initially start here?))
12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
((Does Revelation 20:1-3 initially start here?))
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
((Does Revelation 20:1-3 initially start here?))
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
((Does Revelation 20:1-3 initially start here?))
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
((Does Revelation 20:1-3 initially start here?))
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
((Does Revelation 20:1-3 initially start here?))
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
((Does Revelation 20:1-3 initially start here?))

Click to expand...

The wicked angels are not now allowed to go back into the presence of God's light in 2 Peter 2:4.
They are in chains of "darkness".

Satan is bound from being able to deceive all of the nations in Revelation chapter 20, because of the Gospel. At one time only Israel had the Gospel.

Revelation 12, and Revelation 20 are two completely different visions.
It is my belief they cannot be compared in the way you are attempting.

Revelation 20 is symbolic of the Church Age.



.

DavidPT said:

If one were Premil, this would be true. But why should it be true of Amil as well? If Revelation 12:2-17 covers at least 2000 years, and that Amils' proposed thousand years covers this same 2000 years, why then can't Amil show in Revelation 12:2-17 exactly where satan's thousand year binding starts, and while I'm thinking about it, also where in the text his thousand year binding ends and his little season begins? Why would that be an unreasonable request? It's Amils who are claiming satan is bound in this age and that it equals from the time of the cross until when satans little season begins. Revelation 12:2-17 also covers that same time period.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


Assuming satan is bound in this age, followed by his little season, well it would seem to me then, that this short time would be meaning the little season after the thousand years. That would have to place satan's thousand year binding during the time before he is cast out of heaven unto the earth. Even that can't work. Especially when some people view satan as having been cast unto the earth around the time of Christ's ascension back into heaven. That would make this short time the thousand years rather than his little season.

Click to expand...

If you ignore all of the passages, like Matthew 25:31-46, and John 5:27-30, and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1, and Revelation 11:18, which prove the Premill doctrine is wrong, then maybe you can make the above work.

You have certainly made a good effort to accomplish that goal.

.