Are Real Christians and Non-Christians Mixed Together in Churches Today.

[Copperhead]

My apologies.

May I ask you this question. If the child is the church, doesn't that mean the church brought forth Christ.

Wasn't it Christ who brought forth the church????

No, Christ is the head of the Church. The Church is His body, along with being His Bride. Israel brought forth the Messiah, and has yet to give birth to the body. The Church was conceived at Pentacost by the HS, just as Christ was conceived in Mary by the HS. It grows in the womb and then is born later. The first time Israel gave birth, it was a singular event.. Mary giving birth to Yeshua. The Revelation 12 event is corporate Israel giving birth to the Church. Prophecy is pattern.

Regarding the Body.....

Ephesians 1:22-23 (NKJV) And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

Ephesians 4:11-12 (NKJV) And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,

And Israel gives birth BEFORE she goes into labor, which is the tribulation period...

Isaiah 66:7-8 (NKJV) “Before she was in labor, she gave birth;
Before her pain came,
She delivered a male child.
8 Who has heard such a thing?
Who has seen such things?
Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day?
Or shall a nation be born at once?
For as soon as Zion was in labor,
She gave birth to her children.

Jeremiah 30:6-7 (NKJV) Ask now, and see,
Whether a man is ever in labor with child?
So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins
Like a woman in labor,
And all faces turned pale?
7 Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob's trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.

 

[Major1]

No, Christ is the head of the Church. The Church is His body, along with being His Bride. Israel brought forth the Messiah, and has yet to give birth to the body. The Church was conceived at Pentacost by the HS, just as Christ was conceived in Mary by the HS. It grows in the womb and then is born later. The first time Israel gave birth, it was a singular event.. Mary giving birth to Yeshua. The Revelation 12 event is corporate Israel giving birth to the Church. Prophecy is pattern.

Regarding the Body.....

Ephesians 1:22-23 (NKJV) And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

Ephesians 4:11-12 (NKJV) And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,

And Israel gives birth BEFORE she goes into labor, which is the tribulation period...

Isaiah 66:7-8 (NKJV) “Before she was in labor, she gave birth;
Before her pain came,
She delivered a male child.
8 Who has heard such a thing?
Who has seen such things?
Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day?
Or shall a nation be born at once?
For as soon as Zion was in labor,
She gave birth to her children.

Jeremiah 30:6-7 (NKJV) Ask now, and see,
Whether a man is ever in labor with child?
So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins
Like a woman in labor,
And all faces turned pale?
7 Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob's trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.

I respect your ability to believe as you have been taught but I must in all love and fairness disagree with you.

I would like to point out to you that it is Israel and not the church that gives birth to the male child as seen in verse 5 with in his imagery. Again my friend, the church did not bring forth Jesus but the fact is it was Jesus who brought forth the church and as you said, He is the head of His church.

Paul confirms this when writing concerning the Israelites in Romans 9:5.......
“from whom is the Christ according to the flesh”.

It is obvious the male child refers to Christ since Revelation 12:5 says He will rule the nations with a rod of iron just as does Ps. 2:9. Jesus is also said to rule with a rod of iron in Revelation 2:27 and 19:15.

John 4:22 also tells us that “salvation is from the Jews,” which means that redemption came
through the nation of Israel in the form of their Messiah—the male child.

Since we are dealing with the male child of 12:5, then we should note a parallelism between Revelation 12 and Micah 5 that supports the notion that the woman in Revelation refers to Israel.

The parallelism between Revelation 12 and Micah 5 helps to clearly identify the
woman as Israel. In Micah 5:2 is recorded the birth of the ruler. The rejection
of this ruler results in the setting aside of the nation in 5:3 says..........
“therefore will he give them up,”.

The nation will be in travail “until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth” in Mic. 5:3, that is, until the accomplishment of God’s purpose.

The same program is outlined in Rev. 12:10.

Then a comparison of Revelation 12:7–9 with Daniel 12:1–7 confirms the identification of the woman as Israel.

Please consider that when the woman is taken to refer to Israel, it harmonizes all of the imagery
throughout the rest of Revelation 12. However, if the woman refers to Mary, then when
did she flee into the wilderness for 3 ½ years? If it is a reference to the church or the
people of God (including Gentiles) then when did the church give birth to Jesus or flee
into the wilderness so that the Dragon made war with the rest of her offspring?

 

[Copperhead]

I would like to point out to you that it is Israel and not the church that gives birth to the male child as seen in verse 5 with in his imagery. Again my friend, the church did not bring forth Jesus but the fact is it was Jesus who brought forth the church and as you said, He is the head of His church.

We must be speaking past one another. You are contending against a assertion I never made. I never once said anything else than Israel is the woman. I have only contended that the child is the church.

It is obvious the male child refers to Christ since Revelation 12:5 says He will rule the nations with a rod of iron just as does Ps. 2:9. Jesus is also said to rule with a rod of iron in Revelation 2:27 and 19:15.

You are indeed correct! Messiah will rule with a rod of iron. But back up a wee bit and see how Revelation 2:27 applies...

Revelation 2:26-27 (NKJV) And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—
27 “He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter's vessels’—as I also have received from My Father;

Clearly, those that overcome will also rule with a rod of iron with the Messiah. No conflict. The church is the body of Christ and rules with a rod of iron as He does. Example, one sheriff doesn't run an entire county by himself, he has deputies under his authority that enforces the same laws. Likewise, when Messiah reigns, his body (the church) reigns with Him.

I also see no conflict in Micah 5. In verse 3, it says that He (refers back the Messiah in the previous verse) shall give them (Israel) up until she has given birth.

Micah 5:3 (NKJV) Therefore He shall give them up,
Until the time that she who is in labor has given birth;
Then the remnant of His brethren
Shall return to the children of Israel.

This comports perfectly with Revelation 12. When the church is born of Israel in Revelation 12 and is caught up to the throne, then the woman (Israel) is protected from the dragon and kept from the grasp of the false messiah. Obviously, the Lord has turned from giving them up as expressed in Micah 5:3, since now it is after the birth. And the context makes sense, as Israel has to call out for the Messiah to return, as a preexistent condition of Messiah's second coming, as expressed in Hosea 5:15 and Matthew 23:38-39.

My reference to Mary is that the Messiah (the head of the church) would come from her. She is a Jew, a daughter of Jacob (Israel) and David. I said that prophecy is pattern throughout scripture. That pattern of Messiah coming from Mary is the same pattern of the Church being birthed from Israel in Revelation 12. The first is singular (one woman, one child) and the latter is corporate (One nation of Israel, one Church which is the body of the Messiah and a nation per 1 Peter 2:9).

 

[Major1]

We must be speaking past one another. You are contending against a assertion I never made. I never once said anything else than Israel is the woman. I have only contended that the child is the church.



You are indeed correct! Messiah will rule with a rod of iron. But back up a wee bit and see how Revelation 2:27 applies...

Revelation 2:26-27 (NKJV) And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—
27 “He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter's vessels’—as I also have received from My Father;

Clearly, those that overcome will also rule with a rod of iron with the Messiah. No conflict. The church is the body of Christ and rules with a rod of iron as He does. Example, one sheriff doesn't run an entire county by himself, he has deputies under his authority that enforces the same laws. Likewise, when Messiah reigns, his body (the church) reigns with Him.

I also see no conflict in Micah 5. In verse 3, it says that He (refers back the Messiah in the previous verse) shall give them (Israel) up until she has given birth.

Micah 5:3 (NKJV) Therefore He shall give them up,
Until the time that she who is in labor has given birth;
Then the remnant of His brethren
Shall return to the children of Israel.

This comports perfectly with Revelation 12. When the church is born of Israel in Revelation 12 and is caught up to the throne, then the woman (Israel) is protected from the dragon and kept from the grasp of the false messiah. Obviously, the Lord has turned from giving them up as expressed in Micah 5:3, since now it is after the birth. And the context makes sense, as Israel has to call out for the Messiah to return, as a preexistent condition of Messiah's second coming, as expressed in Hosea 5:15 and Matthew 23:38-39.

My reference to Mary is that the Messiah (the head of the church) would come from her. She is a Jew, a daughter of Jacob (Israel) and David. I said that prophecy is pattern throughout scripture. That pattern of Messiah coming from Mary is the same pattern of the Church being birthed from Israel in Revelation 12. The first is singular (one woman, one child) and the latter is corporate (One nation of Israel, one Church which is the body of the Messiah and a nation per 1 Peter 2:9).

It is ME who contend that the woman is Israel.

How do you explain the woman as the Church when she (it) did not bring forth the man child (Christ)?

Jesus brought forth the church as it was not in existence until He died and rose from the dead.

How can the church bring forth Christ when it did not exist until after He was dead?

 

[Copperhead]

It is ME who contend that the woman is Israel.

How do you explain the woman as the Church when she (it) did not bring forth the man child (Christ)?

Jesus brought forth the church as it was not in existence until He died and rose from the dead.

How can the church bring forth Christ when it did not exist until after He was dead?

Great! So do I! Is that clear enough for you? I never said that the church was the woman. I defy you to post any statement from any of my posts that I said such a thing. I have always said the woman in Revelation 12 is Israel. If you still can't see that, I hate to be the one to inform you, but you need to see an optometrist.

True, the church did not exist until Yeshua died and rose again. But Yeshua did not bring forth, or birth, the church, the church was conceived at Pentacost by the HS. Just as Messiah was conceived in Mary by the HS.

 

[thecolorsblend]

The world has only seen this true church once, 2000 years ago. We read about them in the book of Acts. The local church, and the universal church together, for the first time.

What makes you say that?