Are Our Standards Too Low?

[McScribe]

I agree, I thought I'd mentioned that. I meant more in our day to day face to face lives. Frankly I don't know if anyone is doing that, not trying to judge anyone, I just don't hear of many examples of it outside the forums. What I tend to see is shock and dismay when people say "What, you're getting a separation/divorce" but not the faintest idea that anything was wrong. I am NOT judging here, not implying we ought to have telepathy. I just think that when it comes to our personal struggles we need perhaps to be more there before things come to a serious crisis.

 

[mkgal1]

I agree that a lot of the difficulty is because of a lack of community. Like you said, there is a lot of isolation behind those smiles at church. A lot of us are first generation Christians, and we need to see the Christian life walked out before us. Things sound simple and easy when we hear what is needed for a marriage to work...it often isn't until we hit a conflict that we then understand how complicated it can be.

I love small groups or life groups, and think that is an important factor for all of us to grow and mature. To have a place where we can feel safe to share our struggles, and are even encouraged to do so. It is so easy to get stuck in the status quo kind of life...especially when we are knee-deep in child raising and all the busyness that is involved in that season of our lives. That is when we probably need it the most though.

 

[chaz345]

In response to posts 301 and 302:

I agree entirely. I think that there's two things going on.

When it comes to serious problems I think that some people have a "it's no one else's business" type of attitude, for fear(usually unfounded) that they'll be judged.

But I think the bigger problem is that too many of us have a "it's none of MY business" attitude. We fear offering input or even fear developing the kind of relationship where that sort of input would even be "allowed". Or even if we do have that sort of close relationship, we fear that what we say will be taken the wrong way and the relationship will be ended.

 

[poohgirl]

I agree, I thought I'd mentioned that. I meant more in our day to day face to face lives. Frankly I don't know if anyone is doing that, not trying to judge anyone, I just don't hear of many examples of it outside the forums. What I tend to see is shock and dismay when people say "What, you're getting a separation/divorce" but not the faintest idea that anything was wrong. I am NOT judging here, not implying we ought to have telepathy. I just think that when it comes to our personal struggles we need perhaps to be more there before things come to a serious crisis.

I for one think you are making very valid points and speaking the truth here. We need to be more in tune and connected long before a crisis ever comes. Prayer I would think would be a great start.

I'm still learning in marriage even after the years we have been married already.

I'll keep reading a long.

 

[poohgirl]

In response to posts 301 and 302:

I agree entirely. I think that there's two things going on.

When it comes to serious problems I think that some people have a "it's no one else's business" type of attitude, for fear(usually unfounded) that they'll be judged.

But I think the bigger problem is that too many of us have a "it's none of MY business" attitude. We fear offering input or even fear developing the kind of relationship where that sort of input would even be "allowed". Or even if we do have that sort of close relationship, we fear that what we say will be taken the wrong way and the relationship will be ended.

That's true, people often fear being judged and many will hesitate or don't like that risk. I find though as I get older that little by little I long to be able to connect deeper with others and take little risk as we grow closer friendships.

We were talking about a persons burst in our SS class a few weeks ago, not gossip just a comment that things in class said really struck a cord with him that day. For me I said I felt I could relate to his emotional response made, because it seemed real and true to life. I prefer real or what I perceive as the real over some elaborate spiritual response. Example would be I prefer for someone to say outright hey this stinks or this is hard or losing a job makes them mad over another saying how they just praised over every hardship they ever had. I don't know if I am explaining it correctly, but hopefully get the gist of what I am saying.

Be real and pray for one another.

 

[mkgal1]

In response to posts 301 and 302:

I agree entirely. I think that there's two things going on.

When it comes to serious problems I think that some people have a "it's no one else's business" type of attitude, for fear(usually unfounded) that they'll be judged.

But I think the bigger problem is that too many of us have a "it's none of MY business" attitude. We fear offering input or even fear developing the kind of relationship where that sort of input would even be "allowed". Or even if we do have that sort of close relationship, we fear that what we say will be taken the wrong way and the relationship will be ended.

I absolutely agree, except for one thing--people ARE being judged. I believe that is a BIG part of the problem--instead of coming along side and guiding with loving encouragement--there is judgment. I see a lot of pious attitudes...and a lot of people are hiding behind false facades. There is an appearance that is being reflected in a lot of churches...not all...that you DO have to have it all together to be involved and accepted. Through that isolation...conflict has a perfect breeding ground.

 

[mkgal1]

That's true, people often fear being judged and many will hesitate or don't like that risk. I find though as I get older that little by little I long to be able to connect deeper with others and take little risk as we grow closer friendships.

We were talking about a persons burst in our SS class a few weeks ago, not gossip just a comment that things in class said really struck a cord with him that day. For me I said I felt I could relate to his emotional response made, because it seemed real and true to life. I prefer real or what I perceive as the real over some elaborate spiritual response. Example would be I prefer for someone to say outright hey this stinks or this is hard or losing a job makes them mad over another saying how they just praised over every hardship they ever had. I don't know if I am explaining it correctly, but hopefully get the gist of what I am saying.

Be real and pray for one another.

That should be a plaque on our walls. I absolutely think that transparency is important. It is when someone has lost a job....lost a child.....has a child in jail...whatever, and the response is a cold and disconnected, "I will pray for you..and remember...God works all things out for good." When we get responses like that, it only makes us feel we are "less than" for being angry...scared....or not having faith, and then we don't know what to do from that point. One thing we do know is, we aren't going to turn to that person again.

 

[chaz345]

I absolutely agree, except for one thing--people ARE being judged. I believe that is a BIG part of the problem--instead of coming along side and guiding with loving encouragement--there is judgment. I see a lot of pious attitudes...and a lot of people are hiding behind false facades. There is an appearance that is being reflected in a lot of churches...not all...that you DO have to have it all together to be involved and accepted. Through that isolation...conflict has a perfect breeding ground.

I don't disagree that people are judged. But I think the problem is made out to be bigger and more common than it really is in a lot of cases. Fear of judgement is what kept me from seeking help for my porn problem. But when I finally did seek help, there was ZERO judgement, which surprised me greatly. Maybe I've just found an exceptionally healthy church though.

In any case I think that often the fear of judgement is a bigger problem that any real judgement.

 

[mkgal1]

I don't disagree that people are judged. But I think the problem is made out to be bigger and more common than it really is in a lot of cases. Fear of judgement is what kept me from seeking help for my porn problem. But when I finally did seek help, there was ZERO judgement, which surprised me greatly. Maybe I've just found an exceptionally healthy church though.

In any case I think that often the fear of judgement is a bigger problem that any real judgement.

I agree that the actual fear is the bigger problem. If it were just the judgement...then, in your case-- as an example-- you could have just gone to another church knowing that the only way it was going to get resolved was to bring it to light and deal with it.

We need to know that God doesn't condemn us..He wants for us to get out of bondage of our sins. We need to understand that people that judge are usually insecure and that it isn't a reflection of us...but them.

 

[McScribe]

That is very true, but in a way I'm talking about leading in this. I really believe this: we have to have the courage to try to build that kind of community. Remember that Jesus was often rejected--by his family, even by his own followers. You can tell this grieved him but he persevered. He gives that one parable about the wealthy man who threw a banquet and none of his friends came, so he offered the banquet to beggars...we need I think to place more value upon our relationship with God and the fruit it bears and not on what other people think of us.

 

[teddyv]

I agree that a lot of the difficulty is because of a lack of community. Like you said, there is a lot of isolation behind those smiles at church. A lot of us are first generation Christians, and we need to see the Christian life walked out before us. Things sound simple and easy when we hear what is needed for a marriage to work...it often isn't until we hit a conflict that we then understand how complicated it can be.

I just wanted to comment on this as a good reminder to myself. Both my wife and I have grown up in multi-generational Christian families, and we are also surrounded by people of similar familial and cultural patterns within our church. Both my wife's and my own parent's and my wife's family and friends certainly modelled a strong Biblical marriage and us seeing it as the norm probably gave us a good head start in what to expect in our marriage.

 

[mkgal1]

*This was in response to McScribe's post*

Absolutely true. It is like having a mission statement to live by. Through that, all decisions can be made much more easily. We can accept the loss of frienships more easily knowing that we honored God in the relationship, and sometimes that happens. It helped me a great deal to know it happened to Christ.

My husband and I went through two church splits within about 5 years. Because of that, we lost a lot of friends; but, that was the time I have felt the closest to God. I had no other option. I believe in His sovereign hand, and that what I needed most was that isolation at the time. I was able to define what I felt was most important in my relationships with others and what I wanted out of a church. I feel that once we have that defined, and we base it on the Bible, we will be surrounded by people that have like standards. It is when we don't shift from one set of ideals to the other that we are our true selves and can accept God's guidance.

 

[mkgal1]

I just wanted to comment on this as a good reminder to myself. Both my wife and I have grown up in multi-generational Christian families, and we are also surrounded by people of similar familial and cultural patterns within our church. Both my wife's and my own parent's and my wife's family and friends certainly modelled a strong Biblical marriage and us seeing it as the norm probably gave us a good head start in what to expect in our marriage.

I think that has given you a HUGE head start. It is one thing to listen to marriage conferences....read books of marriage....even attend pre-marital counseling, but you hear all that and think, "Okay...got it...we can do it...bring it on..." (maybe not in those words) and then a crisis hits, and none of that seems to make sense.

 

[Conservativation]

So then why do we immediately tell people to read books and attend conferences

 

[mkgal1]

So then why do we immediately tell people to read books and attend conferences

Because some times that is the only option...not all of us had the blessing of growing up in a Christian home.

 

[McScribe]

So then why do we immediately tell people to read books and attend conferences

Good question...how helpful do we find books and conferences? I have to say again, it was prayer and scripture and intense amounts of it that me to being able to work to save our marriage, not books and conferences. I mean...we must have read ten books, both of us! Wild at Heart, Love Languages, His Needs Her Needs, etc etc. They all sounded great, we even agreed with some of the principles. And in a way it was like talking to one of those blind men talking about an elephant. (you know, the parable) There were relevant experiences, but a lack of a whole picture somehow. I wonder if anyone else knows what I'm talking about.

 

[mkgal1]

Good question...how helpful do we find books and conferences? I have to say again, it was prayer and scripture and intense amounts of it that me to being able to work to save our marriage, not books and conferences. I mean...we must have read ten books, both of us! Wild at Heart, Love Languages, His Needs Her Needs, etc etc. They all sounded great, we even agreed with some of the principles. And in a way it was like talking to one of those blind men talking about an elephant. (you know, the parable) There were relevant experiences, but a lack of a whole picture somehow. I wonder if anyone else knows what I'm talking about.

I have to agree, McScribe. I had so many voices in my head, but I don't believe ANY of them were God. I know what you are saying about not giving the "whole picture". I can open my own library with all the books I have on marriage...but so many of them seem to be not really saying anything of any substance. The only books that I can highly recommend are Gary Smalley's books, Dr Henry Cloud's and Dr Townsend's. I do feel books and conferences are good...but, I don't think we should put them ahead of the Bible and God's counsel.

It wasn't until I began to seek God that the truth began to unravel for me....and you know what? I prayed almost verbatim the same prayer YOU did. Does that mean that the same God gives the same counsel? It makes sense to me.

 

[Romanseight2005]

I think it is helpful to read actual biographies of people who walked out Godly lives.

 

[dorig59]

Actually Romans that's a very good thought. There are 2 that I read years ago that have stuck with me as the gold standard they were so good. One is the biography of Jim Elliott and his wife Elisabeth. Outstanding. And the other is about a man who I can't remember his name, but he was Ruth Graham's father. The book was called "An American Devil in China". Take my word for it....so so good and inspiring.

 

[McScribe]

It does certainly help to have good examples, and in particular to have them lifted up to us.

What about respect? It's funny, you often hear about all kinds of premarital counselling and all kinds of issues from kids to religious denomination to inlaws to vacations being discussed, but to me those things are entirely situational as I see them now. Like, having kids might sound great when you're just entering university and then seem like a huge challenge based on a different stage of life you're in. One spouse says "But we agreed" the other says, "Yeah, but look at the circumstances..." and then where are you?

I think that this is where having a sense of genuine biblical love and examples and understanding of how to apply that overcomes all the agreements in the world. If you have respect as a foundation between you, the kind of respect talked about in Ephesians, Corinthians, in the Book of Matthew...in short, in the Bible!...then you are more likely to believe that you ought to listen to your spouse and therefore are more likely to be listened to in turn.

One further thing. I think that the whole 'communication skills' idea is something that maybe we take too far. My wife and I frankly communicate differently no matter what words we use; she's a woman and I'm a man; she's a passionate artistic person and I'm pragmatic and more intellectual. We simply don't see eye to eye on everything and we use the same words sometimes to say entirely different things. It's not so much communication skills as respect for one another that helps a lot.

So what are some examples of how respect works?

My four year old is very creative; he likes building things. Sometimes where he chooses to build them is inconvenient. I've noticed that if I get him to cooperate by putting his projects somewhere less inconvenient to the rest of us but helping him move them there I have won his trust, so that he's very willing to cooperate. I hear the words softly in my head as I am helping him love is patient and kind.

I hear a lot of people use the word 'love' very casually, but to me respect is a foundation of love. Respect keeps things steady even when you're not really sure about how you feel.