Are Our Standards Too Low?

[Psalm63]

Hey, sorry if you took offense at 'seem to be ignoring'. I'm enjoying talking with you.

I'm noticing that not just you but also chaz and Cons seem to be struggling in a way with the concept of leadership as I'm presenting it. I don't see where I'm demanding absolute servitude from my wife, nor do I believe that it is tradition I am after entirely. It's rather my concern for what will actually work.

The fact remains that Christ was more than just a servant, Christ was also a leader who challenged, placed demands and had expectations.

Something that my wife and I were bothered by recently: she was reading a novel and it was about a woman struggling in her marriage. At one point she is talking about it with some friends and one of the friends, who apparently had a very happy marriage (widowed) said "you can't expect men to step up to the bat". But it seems to me that that is exactly what women long for, is for their men to be compassionate but brave. And it strikes me that that is what you dread, is the idea of submission to a man who lacks courage and faith. Of course you do. I mean, it's like being under the military command of someone who have no trust in--your first thought is "He's gonna get us all killed." .

But McScribe, I trusted and respected my husband for 20 years, and submitted to him totally. It is not about being afraid of "the idea of submission to a man who lacks courage and faith". I thought he was the best thing since sliced bread. I thought he was the godliest man on the face of the planet. I put him on such a pedestal you would not believe..... I mean, he is a seminary graduate, he was a missionary, he was a Christian college professor, he was all about "serving God". I was blind/in denial/ did not have appropriate fear of where he was "leading" us.

What did he do with my submission, my trust, my respect? Well, for one, none of them were reciprocal (namely submission, trust, and respect).

Here is a quote from a blog post I just read today which really describes my marriage before I dumped the bad theology:

Giving husbands unilateral authority in the home does not help their Christian character of humility and forbearance. Instead, it feeds husbands’ normal, fleshly human nature with power and privilege that may be beyond their ability to handle...


The fact is that though Ephesians 5 and similar passages exhort husbands to self-sacrificially “love their wives,” the indulgence of their “headship” (a term never found in the New Testament– the head-body metaphor in the original Greek does not convey authority-subordination as it does in English) gives them no incentive to do so. There are indeed Christian patriarchal-type marriages where the man does humble himself and lay down his own desires on a daily basis for the wife, as the Bible says he should– but this example of Christian character usually displays itself if there is strong outside pressure (such as from other church members) to do so, or if it was character the husband already had. Within the patriarchal marriage structure on its own, wifely indulgence of his husbandly whims in the name of “submission” won’t teach him character. Nor will he feel any obligation to listen to her if he believes he is entitled to always have his own way. Power corrupts, and absolute power in the home can corrupt absolutely.



Wives, self-sacrificially giving in to your husbands in ways that exalt them in power and control over you, does not help your husbands! At best, it acts as a temptation they must resist, in order to continue in the humility they know they should walk in as Christians. And at worst, it inflates their pride, feeds their selfishness, and gives them no incentive to walk in love towards you. [source]










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[chaz345]

Giving husbands unilateral authority in the home does not help their Christian character of humility and forbearance.[source]

But there is no current teaching within the church that gives men unilateral authority. I'll certainly grant that there are some men who see it that way, but it's not the normal teaching.

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[McScribe]

Cons and Chaz: Okay, sorry guys, I guess we are on the same page. Misunderstanding. Anyway chaz has the right of it; it's more like a partnership but with some different areas of responsibility.

Psalm:

I think that you are right in the sense of having a need for discernment, and I understand why now you are so very reluctant to agree to any role for leadership with regard to men particularly now. However I wonder if you see that from my point of view the problem was not the role of leadership but how it was exercised. I too do not believe that a woman should be blindly submissive. And yeah, there are some ministries that frankly do advocate that and I believe they are wrong. (one example is the Focus on the Family group, in my opinion)

One of the things I'm going through right now is my desire to join another church; the one we belonged to before was making both of us unhappy. However my wife is very reluctant to start building a sense of community again. I realize that she's felt emotionally burned and doesn't want to take any risks right now; at the same time we've moved to another area and we don't really know anyone. We're kind of isolated and I don't think that's good for us. If I were just a 'I'm the head and we're gonna do what I say!' type of fellow that would be that. So in the face of a few friends who already attend this new church I have to say "I do want to be very involved, but right now it's important that I support my wife." The thought of going by myself to church events (we attend services but not regularly) or of simply making her do it makes me feel sad. I know that what she needs is for me to be understanding and patient right now; it's not a life or death matter. See to me that IS exercising leadership. I'm protecting her.

 

[chaz345]

I too do not believe that a woman should be blindly submissive. And yeah, there are some ministries that frankly do advocate that and I believe they are wrong. (one example is the Focus on the Family group, in my opinion)

Not to be confrontational but can you provide examples of FoTF advocating blind submission by the wife? I'm genuinely curious as to how that opinion is arrived as since I too would be quite against the idea and yet I simply don't see that in what they teach.

 

[Conservativation]

I'd like to see some examples of ANY ministry....I mean ones that anyone reads or is a part of...not some obscure thing...where its taught.

 

[McScribe]

I remember this woman being advised by Dr. Dobson that she should act like her husband is worthy of respect in front of their kids even if she doesn't respect him, and that that would lead to greater respect being felt by her--more or less the 'fake it till you feel it' point of view. That's one example.

I also remember a woman being told in effect to just keep being supportive of her husband for agreeing to a job that involved moving to another state and avoiding confronting her husband on her unhappiness about it.

On the other hand I also have to say that I haven't liked what that particular ministry has said to men about pornography addiction, the implication that
1. It's mostly a male problem
2. That the main thing is to stop using pornography.

In general I haven't been impressed with the general trend in christianity on dealing with marital difficulties--the impression I have is that the 'slap a bandaid on the sucking chest wound' application is often used.

 

[Conservativation]

But is that teaching overbearing headship?

In the first example, i happen to subscribe to the feelings follow actions idea. It works equally well with loving my wife when I dont feel like it. If I act like it....I feel it. I just dont get the controversy on that.

In the second one, good example. I agree with the advice given. Note, the advice was not that the two shouldnt discuss the move. Lets assume they have discussed and discussed and prayed and prayed and still didnt disagree. This is the perfect example where its ultimately HIS way, or HER way...there is no compromise. In this case, in whatever fashion, they chose HIS way. The advice is to not dog the man about it.....if someone can share with me the potential benefits of her dogging him about how miserable she is with a decision he may have made in a perfectly Godly fashion, please do tell. I for the life of me cant find why this is bad advice, and I cannot see how this is about headship/leadership anyway.

 

[McScribe]

The implication though is that you simply act as though things are good, and then they will be. Sometimes that's true, sometimes it isn't.

The second example involves the wife not even being told about the idea until it was a fait accompli. I think that's basically unfair. Like for example: my wife tells me that she's joined a course spontaneously and that it has cost $2500. Isn't it reasonable that I say "I wish you had called me first--we need to talk about whether or not we ought to do this"? So maybe you see an implication that the move could still be discussed, I didn't see that at all. (I can't find a link to it btw, sorry) What I saw was the woman being told "suck it up".

Sorry, dude. There are ministries that tell women that. There are also people and groups out there telling men they suck. It's tough all round.

 

[chaz345]

I remember this woman being advised by Dr. Dobson that she should act like her husband is worthy of respect in front of their kids even if she doesn't respect him, and that that would lead to greater respect being felt by her--more or less the 'fake it till you feel it' point of view. That's one example.

I've heard them say the same thing to men in regards to acting in a loving way toward their wives.

And like Cons said, telling someone that they should act like they respect their husband in front of the kids is a FAR cry from blind submission. Did the advice go on to say that she should never question him at all? Or that she should express respect for everything that he does? If not then it's not even close to an example of teaching blind submission.

I also remember a woman being told in effect to just keep being supportive of her husband for agreeing to a job that involved moving to another state and avoiding confronting her husband on her unhappiness about it.

I'd need the context to make a judgement on that one. Alone like this, it certainly seems like questionable advice but I can think of circumstances where it may have been the best(least bad) thing for her to do. For example if he had been out of work for a long time and was starting to question his worth, maybe refraining from confrontation for a time would be smart.

In general I haven't been impressed with the general trend in christianity on dealing with marital difficulties--the impression I have is that the 'slap a bandaid on the sucking chest wound' application is often used.

Well within the context of a radio or TV show, or even a written advice column, the bandaid is really about the only thing that can be done. Most of the time when it's a major surgery problem the bandaid is accompanied by a suggestion to go get the "surgery" at least from what I've heard.

 

[Conservativation]

Sorry, dude. There are ministries that tell women that

Not to sound snarky...but seriously, how do you know that? Do you know it because youve read it as claimed on boards like this? Because I submit lots of stuff runs around online and there was never a real origin.

This is something I obsessively sought out, by my own experience, by asking friends and family, and finally by searching online endlessly, downloading dozens of sermons, searching key words, all kinds of ways to find it.

And what i found were so kooky off beat plain text only sites that had 3 hits per decade....and nothing more.

 

[McScribe]

Hey, Cons, if that's your experience fair enough. We'll have to agree to disagree.

However what you guys are basically saying is "No one would EVER do that because christian ministries wouldn't do that, and even if they did they had to have some kind of excuse." Sheesh, on the one hand you guys have a point about some of the things you say, on the other hand I also see why some of these arguments happen. Also, saying that it never happens doesn't really support your position. I believe that radical feminism is equally unjust, but you guys seem to want it to be the sole villain. The real villain is a lack of following Christ, no matter WHO is doing it.

 

[chaz345]

Hey, Cons, if that's your experience fair enough. We'll have to agree to disagree.

However what you guys are basically saying is "No one would EVER do that because christian ministries wouldn't do that, and even if they did they had to have some kind of excuse." Sheesh, on the one hand you guys have a point about some of the things you say, on the other hand I also see why some of these arguments happen. Also, saying that it never happens doesn't really support your position. I believe that radical feminism is equally unjust, but you guys seem to want it to be the sole villain. The real villain is a lack of following Christ, no matter WHO is doing it.

No that's not even close to what we're saying. I've said many times that there are men who have a very wrong view of headship/leadership and who seriously harm their wives with it. My wife's ex-brother in law was a great example. But then again, he was enough older that he's essentially from the previous generation where wrong teaching on headship/leadership was more common.

What I am saying is that the inappropriate version of male headship/leadership is not what is typically taught today, or anytime in the last couple of decades, by any well respected, largely followed Christian ministries.

 

[mkgal1]

The real villain is a lack of following Christ, no matter WHO is doing it.

I am sorry, McScribe for derailing this thread earlier .

What you said right here should be the unified focus, I believe. Marriage works the way God designed it to work...and that is when BOTH spouses are submitting to God's will. I don't quite understand the benefit of the battle of the genders. To me, it seems as if it is a device being used by Satan. It clouds our judgment, it shirks us from our individual responsibility, and it deceives. It pits wives and husbands against eachother. It is dangerous, in my opinion, and we shouldn't fall prey to it.

 

[McScribe]

I am sorry, McScribe for derailing this thread earlier .

What you said right here should be the unified focus, I believe. Marriage works the way God designed it to work...and that is when BOTH spouses are submitting to God's will. I don't quite understand the benefit of the battle of the genders. To me, it seems as if it is a device being used by Satan. It clouds our judgment, it shirks us from our individual responsibility, and it deceives. It pits wives and husbands against eachother. It is dangerous, in my opinion, and we shouldn't fall prey to it.

Thanks; I agree and I know you're going through a hard time. But we need to keep our focus on God, because we so often go through circular thinking! No matter whose fault it is we can only do what WE can do and hopefully keep involved with God no matter what.

 

[McScribe]

BTW, when I think about it my thread has answered my question and the answer as far as I'm concerned is "Yes, our standards ARE too low."

1. We don't respond enough with prayer or lead enough with prayer in our married lives. I rarely see anyone struggling with prayer or their relationship with God relative to their married situation, I hear people as I've said talking just the way nonbelievers do about their relationships. There's talk of Bible study but rarely TOGETHER.

2. There is a lack of respect. People don't have a foundational sense that they will be listened to or understood, and then when particular problems crop up people are dismayed to realize that they don't have the foundational structure to deal with them.

3. There seems to be a lack of willingness to genuinely go on our knees to God rather than look to others or into our own mirror for validation.

4. I do see a lot of people trying to help others here on the forums but I haven't heard more than I think one testimony about how other people have been helped, prayed for or ministered to in other respects in our day to day lives.

 

[Conservativation]

McScribe...we can all agree that God is at the center.Its absolutely correct and true, Im just not sure how it fits into a group that presumably all know that, and are discussing ministry that teaches ogre men or not.....we were not debating whether its Good to leave God out or invite Him in.

He is in.

Its not a matter of opinion to agree with, on the ministry. It either IS prevalent, or it isnt. And Im asserting indeed that it simply is NOT. That there is a created paranoia born of what WAS a problem a generation or 3 ago. its NOT a problem now. There is never an example, on any board Ive even been on, of someone coming 1st hand and complaning about such a ministry. They come and decry them, but just cant put a face to it or a name. They really are not there.
Some will even point to the SBC and their "controversial" statement of a few years ago....but they didnt really read it or listen, they took the media at their word, and there was nothing in their statement that contradicts your beliefs for example.

 

[poohgirl]

BTW, when I think about it my thread has answered my question and the answer as far as I'm concerned is "Yes, our standards ARE too low." Agree.

1. We don't respond enough with prayer or lead enough with prayer in our married lives. I rarely see anyone struggling with prayer or their relationship with God relative to their married situation, I hear people as I've said talking just the way nonbelievers do about their relationships. There's talk of Bible study but rarely TOGETHER. True.

2. There is a lack of respect. People don't have a foundational sense that they will be listened to or understood, and then when particular problems crop up people are dismayed to realize that they don't have the foundational structure to deal with them. True.

3. There seems to be a lack of willingness to genuinely go on our knees to God rather than look to others or into our own mirror for validation. uh-huh

4. I do see a lot of people trying to help others here on the forums but I haven't heard more than I think one testimony about how other people have been helped, prayed for or ministered to in other respects in our day to day lives.

I think you are right on. What to do? How have you been able to apply or turn this around in your life and marriage?

 

[Conservativation]

1. We don't respond enough with prayer or lead enough with prayer in our married lives. I rarely see anyone struggling with prayer or their relationship with God relative to their married situation


But how would you SEE that about another couple? It is by nature something that IS or ISNT happening in the home/marriage, meaning the couple is praying powerfully for Gods involvement, seperately, together, or both, and even may have others praying for them.....to my estimation that they are or arent doing that, and the details of it are not things people would discuss, because they arent things that we seek help about. Ive never seen anyone post soimething like "we really want togo to the Lord in prayer but we need help figuring out how".

I always get confused when folks assume that because people arent talking about the fact that they pray, and somehow even talking through the scriptures they pray over, etc....that that somehow implies that they are not doing so and are stuck in a secular approach. I cannot even imagine what posts would look like that were about that.

People come here, and elsewhere, explicitly BECAUSE there are other people, and other experiences, and other insights. Where scripture comes in, and it is critical, is as others use scripture to guide one another through challenges, edifying one another while giving credit to the Lord. I just dont think though that we can make statements like, "folks just are not in prayer or scripture and thats the fundamental problem"....in fact, in my opinion, its a little bit harmful to say that. Why? Because what it does is stops the exporatory dialogs where folks are seeking advice based on experience or knowledge. Its like a false "end" to the discourse. Indeed it IS the end, and the beginning, and the middle, but using that fact as such in conversation accomplishes little to nothing. The actual prayer accomplishes much. But taking a given problem and saying, simply, "well clwarly the issue is lack of prayer" kind of assumes much, is a little offputting to those who ARE on theor knees and STILL in deep problems, AND it comes across like we can dust off our hands, problem solved......and it isnt.

I am well known for obsession about divorce. One of the things that ALWAYS pops up in those discussions is "well, we can go round and round but bottom line is sin, if we could just stop sinning and turn to God this wouldnt be an issue". As here in this thread...SOOOO true inside each of our lives, but soooo kind of shutting off of dialog in conversations because it leads to thinking, "well, ok then, lets all just go and stop sinning and turn to God and issue solved". Its taking nothing from God to say that it aint that simple lots of times. Call it trials by design or whatever, but we are going to have these problems no matter what. And seeking help in that multitude of counselors as some do here is GOOD.

Bottom line, these admonishments are valid and true, I just see that they can be false bookends to discourse that may end up helping someone.

 

[McScribe]

I think you're taking it the wrong way. I'm more talking about being a good friend. What are we called to do? To be charitable and generous, isn't it? Among other things? So here are some examples:

- Being genuinely interested in one another--not just "How you doing" "Oh, fine" kind of church chat, but being interested. Couples sometimes end up being isolated from one another within those social smiles.

- Being genuinely helpful, especially to people you don't see socially mixing, or who you see often being tired or isolated.

- When people need prayer not just a fire and forget prayer but standing in faith with them, being concerned about them and caring about what happens.

See Cons I'm not talking about anything extraordinary but simply imitating Christ. It does say in the Bible that we are to encourage one another, help one another and be good to one another.

And you're right--simply saying "stop that sinning" is NOT helpful.

 

[Conservativation]

OKAY. Agreed, but it brings me back to, I thought thats what we do here.