Are Our Standards Too Low?

[chaz345]

Blame should not be the goal, I guess is a better way to phrase what I am trying to express. Blame divides, and that alone is detrimental to a marriage. It seems that once that happens, and if it appears to be something that is leaning towards one spouse....then the other spouse may throw their hands up and say, "Well....that isn't MY fault" and then they feel they have no responsibility to resolve the issue. All marital issues should be taken on and battled against by both spouses as they should be united as one.

I agree with you that blame is not a good thing. The problem I've been talking about as relates to these standards is not that they themself are bad, but that people tend to apply them in a bad blaming type way. Most often when we hear about someone not meeting one of those standards it's "He/she isn't _____" rather than "I'm having a hard time _____".

 

[chaz345]

That's certainly true, Chaz. I think that above all it needs to be remembered that I'm not holding this up as standards for my wife, for example, but for myself first and foremost. I encourage her to do likewise but my own actions are my responsibility.

I agree completely. Based on what you said in the other thread I think you may be misunderstanding one aspect of my point though. THe standards, as you have stated them are good, and are something everyone should strive for. My only difficulty is in how often we see/hear someone trying to apply them to someone else first. We in effect see them used as a weapon more than we see them used as a goal.

Like I've said, if one person sees a lack in one of those areas there is a problem to be addressed. But since the problem can be one that is as much their perception as much as the other person's actions/lack of actions, then the approach needs to be entirely different than if the wrong is more objective, like adultery. But too often we see what amounts to a lack in one of the areas in your post being met with advice to set boundries and consequenses and enforce the standard on to the other person.

 

[Conservativation]

Thats all I was getting at too. No matter how you spin it, talking about the OTHER person IS blame....whether you verbally "BLAME" them or not....its about THEM. If I sit and dwell in my wife comparing her to these I promise I will find her falling short. So whats the point?

 

[mkgal1]

I agree with you that blame is not a good thing. The problem I've been talking about as relates to these standards is not that they themself are bad, but that people tend to apply them in a bad blaming type way. Most often when we hear about someone not meeting one of those standards it's "He/she isn't _____" rather than "I'm having a hard time _____".

That is more in line with what I was trying to express. All 5 of the mentioned categories need to be in place to some degree for the marriage to be healthy. Using the second phrase....."I'm having a hard time____" is just being respectful and kind to your spouse. NO ONE responds well to "YOU aren't_____". As I said earlier.....it is all about the conditon and attitude of the heart. It ALL starts there.

 

[mkgal1]

Thats all I was getting at too. No matter how you spin it, talking about the OTHER person IS blame....whether you verbally "BLAME" them or not....its about THEM. If I sit and dwell in my wife comparing her to these I promise I will find her falling short. So whats the point?

But, Cons.....that is contrary to the Bible. We are told to speak the truth in love. And it isn't about comparing INDIVIDUALS up to the standards, but the MARRIAGE.

I have taught our daughter from very early on, that to be a good friend, you sometimes have to gently tell a friend they are doing something wrong. It is even more imperitive in a marriage, because the two are joined (presumably for life). The actions of one spouse most often affects the other spouse. There is a loving way to do that....and there needs to be a safe environment for that to occur. Unresolved issues from the past may cause previous wounds to be reopened....Phrases even spoken in a loving way may sound caustic...but then THAT needs to be the focus. For both spouses to resolve previous issues the environment needs to be one that true intimacy may occur. Both hearts have to be open to eachother, and defenses need to be lowered.

When there isn't that sort of environment, what is being expressed sans words is, "Your opinion is not important to me....it doesn't matter to me what you believe.....I am going to do what I want to do." That attitude completely shuts out the other spouse and there are natural consequences to that. Intimacy is the most obvious consequence.

If open and honest conversation cannot occur....then there is not a marriage in the sense that God has intended. There is going to be a breakdown of intimacy--if it has not already occurred.

 

[Conservativation]

You are flipping all over the place here and I will try again to show you.

Chaz said : He/she isn't _____" rather than "I'm having a hard time ____

You repeated back that as: I'm having a hard time____" is just being respectful and kind to your spouse. NO ONE responds well to "YOU aren't_____".

Your focus is on the other person and HOW TO approach THEM. Chaz example is NOT TO approach THEM at all. It’s two totally different things. Chaz is saying, on these subjective things, when he says “Im having a hard time, he means ME, I am talking about MYSELF there, I am having a hard time doing standard number 3 for example….that that is what we SHOULD be saying, and we should NOT be saying IN ANY MANNER OF WORDING that the OTHER person is not doing standard 3, or is having a hard time with standard 3, or any form or fashion of pointing out the other persons PERCEIVED issue with standard 3 (standard 3 is just for example, Im not specifically addressing THAT standard)
No matter what, you keep coming back to what and how you would speak to the other person.
My point is that these are Gods standards, and MORE between Him and US, not between Him and ME when it comes to my wife.

Then you say But, Cons.....that is contrary to the Bible. We are told to speak the truth in love.
The Bible says we are to speak truth in love. Yep, and if the spouse is commiting adultery for example, BAM, call em out, truth to love. In that case its real, tangible, truth, they ARE commiting adultery or they are not.
But there IS NO “TRUTH” objectively speaking that one person can call another out on regarding standards that we will NEVER meet no matter what! No matter how you word it, whether its kind, gentle, blaming, whatever, if you say “You are not supportive”…..is that TRUE????? How do you know? Is it because you FEEL it? That’s not truth, and certainly its not truth in the absolute sense the Bible means. If its Biblical guidance you’d prefer Id recommend the guidance that speaks to more vague things, like feelings, and NOT to tangible objective truths…because these ARE NOT that…these are impressions, opinions, feelings. And and I keep repeating, GOD sets these standards. Standards differ a little from rules. Rules are objective…don’t do this, do do that..etc. Standards in this case are GOALS…we aspire to them, we TRY to do them…in this case only Jesus MET the standards, and we simply will not ever meet them, because they are GODS standards.
So why is it profitable for me to dwell in my wifes failure to meet a standard that god set and that I am not meeting either…..not are YOU, or anyone else. It’s a little bit of pot calling kettle black.

 

[Conservativation]

If open and honest conversation cannot occur....then there is not a marriage in the sense that God has intended. There is going to be a breakdown of intimacy--if it has not already occurred.


It isnt communuication when one person is constantly being told...in the "nicest" way, that they arent measuring up....its boot camp.
To bring this up means best be prepared to hear right back that you are failing too.....which will be 100% true....THEN where does that leave you? Tit for tat....very unhelpful.
Maybe just maybe spend your idle time NOT measuring your spouses performance to standards. Its far more profitable time spent ALWAYS when we seek self improvement on things like this, and let GOD work each ones perfection out directly with them

 

[Conservativation]

Finally, if you read this board and others you are going to find that this is THE major marriage complaint from women. Aside from the big ones, adultry abuse etc.....these standards, however worded, capture THE biggest genre of marital complaints. Books, coulseling, massive efforts are poured into it.....to what end? Is it helping? Or cliche....hows that workin for ya? Its NOT working.
Remember the other cliche about insanity and trying the same thing over and over?

 

[mkgal1]

If open and honest conversation cannot occur....then there is not a marriage in the sense that God has intended. There is going to be a breakdown of intimacy--if it has not already occurred.


It isnt communuication when one person is constantly being told...in the "nicest" way, that they arent measuring up....its boot camp.
To bring this up means best be prepared to hear right back that you are failing too.....which will be 100% true....THEN where does that leave you? Tit for tat....very unhelpful.
Maybe just maybe spend your idle time NOT measuring your spouses performance to standards. Its far more profitable time spent ALWAYS when we seek self improvement on things like this, and let GOD work each ones perfection out directly with them

That is the defensiveness I am talking about. If a husband or wife cannot be honest with their spouse....then there is a wall forming between the two. If a spouse has the attitude that hearing anything negative about the marriage is an attack (or "boot camp")....then obviously intimacy is lost.

 

[mkgal1]

You are flipping all over the place here and I will try again to show you.

Chaz said : He/she isn't _____" rather than "I'm having a hard time ____

You repeated back that as: I'm having a hard time____" is just being respectful and kind to your spouse. NO ONE responds well to "YOU aren't_____".

Your focus is on the other person and HOW TO approach THEM. Chaz example is NOT TO approach THEM at all. It’s two totally different things. Chaz is saying, on these subjective things, when he says “Im having a hard time, he means ME, I am talking about MYSELF there, I am having a hard time doing standard number 3 for example….that that is what we SHOULD be saying, and we should NOT be saying IN ANY MANNER OF WORDING that the OTHER person is not doing standard 3, or is having a hard time with standard 3, or any form or fashion of pointing out the other persons PERCEIVED issue with standard 3 (standard 3 is just for example, Im not specifically addressing THAT standard)
No matter what, you keep coming back to what and how you would speak to the other person.
My point is that these are Gods standards, and MORE between Him and US, not between Him and ME when it comes to my wife.

Then you say But, Cons.....that is contrary to the Bible. We are told to speak the truth in love.
The Bible says we are to speak truth in love. Yep, and if the spouse is commiting adultery for example, BAM, call em out, truth to love. In that case its real, tangible, truth, they ARE commiting adultery or they are not.
But there IS NO “TRUTH” objectively speaking that one person can call another out on regarding standards that we will NEVER meet no matter what! No matter how you word it, whether its kind, gentle, blaming, whatever, if you say “You are not supportive”…..is that TRUE????? How do you know? Is it because you FEEL it? That’s not truth, and certainly its not truth in the absolute sense the Bible means. If its Biblical guidance you’d prefer Id recommend the guidance that speaks to more vague things, like feelings, and NOT to tangible objective truths…because these ARE NOT that…these are impressions, opinions, feelings. And and I keep repeating, GOD sets these standards. Standards differ a little from rules. Rules are objective…don’t do this, do do that..etc. Standards in this case are GOALS…we aspire to them, we TRY to do them…in this case only Jesus MET the standards, and we simply will not ever meet them, because they are GODS standards.
So why is it profitable for me to dwell in my wifes failure to meet a standard that god set and that I am not meeting either…..not are YOU, or anyone else. It’s a little bit of pot calling kettle black.

I am not flipping. The trouble is, we are talking in vague generalities and that leaves much room for misunderstanding.

A marriage is no longer about two individuals.....it is a union.....it is now about the marriage and the two as a whole. If there is an issue....it is an issue of the marriage....the unit. As I said before....we cannot look at it as a pass or fail...but things deteriorate one bit at a time (Slow Fade). It isn't a "relationship" if the two are not relating. Saying that each spouse needs to seek God for how they can improve as individuals sounds nice and spiritual, but to not leave room for the two to work out issues together takes away from what makes it a marriage (IMHO). We shouldn't wait until things are black and white like an affair to then begin addressing things. It is often too late then.

 

[Conservativation]

Nor should we pounce on our mate about vague subjective things.
To be honest, you are the biggest loser in this scenario MK....because you are causing yourself so much discontentment by dwelling in these nebulous things and measuring your mate against a standard that he can never meet.
In a way its like jealously, the jealous person suffers mightily as they set everything in life against a backdrop of mistrust and worry. Same here, every day we wake up and face very different things, sometimes things are stable awhile and sometimes they change often. Within all that variation, if we sit and focus on our mate vs some standards, I promise we will become obsessed and depressed, and generally uncomfortable and unhappy.
There are FAR MORE important ways to spend time.

 

[mkgal1]

Nor should we pounce on our mate about vague subjective things.
To be honest, you are the biggest loser in this scenario MK....because you are causing yourself so much discontentment by dwelling in these nebulous things and measuring your mate against a standard that he can never meet.
In a way its like jealously, the jealous person suffers mightily as they set everything in life against a backdrop of mistrust and worry. Same here, every day we wake up and face very different things, sometimes things are stable awhile and sometimes they change often. Within all that variation, if we sit and focus on our mate vs some standards, I promise we will become obsessed and depressed, and generally uncomfortable and unhappy.
There are FAR MORE important ways to spend time.

I am completely open to discussing specifics.....I believe you know quite a bit about my situation, and if you even need more details, I will provide you with them. What "nebulous" things am I dwelling on and what specific standard am I measuring my "mate" against that he cannot ever meet?

 

[Conservativation]

All I can say is, I am so very very thankful my wife doesnt spend her time dwelling in my shortcomings regarding standards like this..because they are many. These last few years with all the financial issues etc. I assure you, I have NOT even come close to meeting these standards, nor has she. Its funny, we actually support one anothers LACK of support, because we know we are both drained. She used to dwell in that stuff before we separated and reconciled several years ago, and one HUGE thing that helped us reconcile was that she said quitre clearly that she recongnized how that was a problem and she was just flat out turning that over to God and worrying about HERSELF. I needed to hear that, to be honest, before the whole reconciliation was even workable.
And it is soooooooo much more relaxed and easy for both of us now that we neither one do this. I find myself laying awake and thinking "oh I wish she'd XYZ more when we talk" or whetever and I try and immediately stop that thinking. I suppose she does the same. The TEAM is healthier that way. The effect is that the standards issue goes away for the most part.
So, there are 2 ways to make the standards issue go away.

1. Both parties PERFORM to standard (this aint gonna happen)
2. Both parties do their best (by their OWN definitions and Gods guidance) day by day, season by season, and accept the other as they are.

We chose number 2.

 

[Conservativation]

I am completely open to discussing specifics.....I believe you know quite a bit about my situation, and if you even need more details, I will provide you with them. What "nebulous" things am I dwelling on and what specific standard am I measuring my "mate" against that he cannot ever meet?

We are discussing a list of standards here. Thats what Im talking about. I thought you were too.

 

[mkgal1]

We are discussing a list of standards here. Thats what Im talking about. I thought you were too.

That isn't what this sounds like:

To be honest, you are the biggest loser in this scenario MK....because you are causing yourself so much discontentment by dwelling in these nebulous things and measuring your mate against a standard that he can never meet.
In a way its like jealously, the jealous person suffers mightily as they set everything in life against a backdrop of mistrust and worry. Same here, every day we wake up and face very different things, sometimes things are stable awhile and sometimes they change often. Within all that variation, if we sit and focus on our mate vs some standards, I promise we will become obsessed and depressed, and generally uncomfortable and unhappy.
There are FAR MORE important ways to spend time

 

[chaz345]

Your focus is on the other person and HOW TO approach THEM. Chaz example is NOT TO approach THEM at all. It’s two totally different things. Chaz is saying, on these subjective things, when he says “Im having a hard time, he means ME, I am talking about MYSELF there, I am having a hard time doing standard number 3 for example….that that is what we SHOULD be saying, and we should NOT be saying IN ANY MANNER OF WORDING that the OTHER person is not doing standard 3, or is having a hard time with standard 3, or any form or fashion of pointing out the other persons PERCEIVED issue with standard 3 (standard 3 is just for example, Im not specifically addressing THAT standard)

This takes it a little further that what I meant. If one spouse is, for example feeling disrespected, then of course they should say something. But it absolutely MUST be framed in terms of their own feelings and in a way which accounts for the very real possibility that a portion of the problem is their own perception. Something along the lines of "I know in my head that you love and respect me but lately I've been feeling unloved/not respected, can we work together to figure out why and how to solve it?"

But that's an entirely different approach than the all too often suggested set boundries and hold them accountable tact.

 

[mkgal1]

So, there are 2 ways to make the standards issue go away.

1. Both parties PERFORM to standard (this aint gonna happen)
2. Both parties do their best (by their OWN definitions and Gods guidance) day by day, season by season, and accept the other as they are.

We chose number 2.

But you choose to discount standard #4 as a necessary stardard which includes relating to your spouse, right? Is that YOUR definition? What if, by your wife's definition, she considers that standard THE standard to live by? She can hardly meet that standard on her own....even with God's help and guidance.

 

[mkgal1]

But that's an entirely different approach than the all too often suggested set boundries and hold them accountable tact.

And where in this thread was that ever suggested?? WHY does that continue to be brought up?

 

[Conservativation]

And where in this thread was that ever suggested?? WHY does that continue to be brought up?

Becuase its there under the radar, or else the entire discussion is meaningless. If you are just going to inform someone they are not meeting a standard, and they keep not meeting it...then what?

We cant meet these anyway, so its an excercise in futility to try field goals where the bar is moving.

 

[Conservativation]

This takes it a little further that what I meant. If one spouse is, for example feeling disrespected, then of course they should say something. But it absolutely MUST be framed in terms of their own feelings and in a way which accounts for the very real possibility that a portion of the problem is their own perception. Something along the lines of "I know in my head that you love and respect me but lately I've been feeling unloved/not respected, can we work together to figure out why and how to solve it?"

But that's an entirely different approach than the all too often suggested set boundries and hold them accountable tact.

Fair enough, all im getting at is the SHARED responsibility. i totally reject the notion that someone should sit dwelling in theor spouses shortcomings and be their walking talking self help program