Are non-Christians incapable of love?

mjere

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This response (and sentiment throughout this thread) is offensive and simply stupid on a number of levels.

So according to you and others in the thread, a woman dying for her children is done out of 'counterfeit love' and not an expression of real love simply because she isn't Christian. What absolute trash.

Um, yeah you can give your body to be burned, and do it motivated out of something other than God's kind of love... and unfortunately it profits you nothing. That's not to say it won't profit someone. 1 Corinthians 13:3

I didn't say the world's kind of love didn't have any profit or value. It simply is not going to be a accurate substitute for the real thing.

A mother giving her life- say she runs in after her children in a burning house with fire, and dies trying to rescue her children. You see a mother's love will do a thing like this. But would that same mother run in after a murder, liar, a thief, or the person who set the house on fire. Not so much. She would probably not be cheering for his death, or I can imagine a decent person expressing some regret for the senseless death; but risking their lives to save a person who didn't give two cents for them... Now we're talking about the world's kind of love. The world's kind of love will size up the situation.

Sure a mother, a father, a daughter, a husband lost and saved can have what the Bible calls "natural affection". But to give yourself selflessly for the lives of another really requires God's kind of love.

It's not natural to turn the other cheek when someone slaps you, but it does seem right, natural to nurture and try to feed and give to your children. Yeah, sure the world can love, but it's a cheap counterfeit. You talk to that same parent who's child has come against them with everything they've got, and see if that parent does something so selfless without thought. You'll hear that same parent on the stand in court saying they just needed to be put to rest, out of their misery. That their kid was no longer in there, that their "real son/daughter" has been gone a real long time.

It may sound stupid, but sometimes God uses the foolish things of the world to confound the wise.
 
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Going Merry

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I guess though this is off topic. It was asking if non-Christians are capable of love not whether or not God loves everyone. Which he really does, though many won't be saved thanks to not believing in the truth of his work. Non-Christians are capable of love clearly. Whether or not they are able to live a sinless life is something else. Of course they are unable to do that.
 
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ImperatorWall

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Can someone without faith be saved? I never understood the doctrine of unconditional election, or what not. Pre-destination what have you - they are all similar. Even if you believe in those doctrines, it should give no confidence in being saved since it can apply to someone else and not you. I have met people who believed in unconditional election and they think people can be saved despite their faithlessness. I also wonder why Jesus asks us to preach if he has already pre-destined everyone. I guess God is illogical.

No, someone without faith cannot be saved.

There are people who take the wonderful truth of predestination to a heretical extreme and believe that they can live however they want, that it does not matter because God will either save them or He will not.

But that's not how it works. God's sovereignty in election almost always plays out in a very real seeking after Him by His elect. Our lives are conformed, and we seek to serve Him out of love. One of the ways someone can examine themselves to see if they are in Christ is to assess whether they exhibit fruits of the spirit, because faith without works is dead. You cannot be an elect child of God and not be following Christ.

As for spreading the gospel, the gospel is a command not an invitation. We are to make known to the entire world that they must follow Christ, and we leave it up to God to save whom He will through our witnessing in our lives and testimonies.
 
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mjere

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Romans 9:13 As it is written , Jacob have I loved , but Esau have I hated.

He's not talking about the actual person Esau. He's talking about the descendants of Esau who didn't go on to serve God. In fact God went on to bless Esau, provided him with land, and told Jacob not to even think about trying to take his land.
 
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ImperatorWall

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I don't like to debate really. I just like sharing my beliefs then leaving :> God never told me to debate with anyone

2 Timothy

2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive ; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient,

2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves ; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

2:26 And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
 
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Going Merry

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He's not talking about the actual person Esau. He's talking about the descendants of Esau who didn't go on to serve God. In fact God went on to bless Esau, provided him with land, and told Jacob not to even think about trying to take his land.

Jacob was blessed because he knew he was unrighteous :p
 
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ImperatorWall

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He's not talking about the actual person Esau. He's talking about the descendants of Esau who didn't go on to serve God. In fact God went on to bless Esau, provided him with land, and told Jacob not to even think about trying to take his land.

I disagree, the verse clearly says Esau. How God treated Esau later in life in no way disannuls His stated hatred for him. God hated Esau's descendents because He hated Esau.
 
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Jupiter Drops

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When studying the Bible, it is critically important to always study the context of a particular Bible verse or passage. In these instances, the prophet Malachi and the apostle Paul are using the name “Esau” to refer to the Edomites, who were the descendants of Esau. Isaac and Rebekah had two sons, Esau and Jacob. God chose Jacob (whom He later renamed “Israel”) to be the father of His chosen people, the Israelites. God rejected Esau (who was also called “Edom”) and did not choose him to be the father of His chosen people. Esau and his descendants, the Edomites, were in many ways blessed by God (Genesis 33:9; Genesis chapter 36).
So, considering the context, God loving Jacob and hating Esau has nothing to do with the human emotions of love and hate. It has everything to do with God choosing one man and his descendants and rejecting another man and his descendants.

Hundreds of years after Jacob and Esau had died, the Israelites and Edomites became bitter enemies. The Edomites often aided Israel’s enemies in attacks on Israel. Esau’s descendants brought God’s curse upon themselves. Genesis 27:29 tells Israel, “May nations serve you and peoples bow down to you. Be lord over your brothers, and may the sons of your mother bow down to you. May those who curse you be cursed and those who bless you be blessed.”
Why did God love Jacob and hate Esau (Malachi 1:3; Romans 9:13)?
 
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Isambard

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A mother giving her life- say she runs in after her children in a burning house with fire, and dies trying to rescue her children. You see a mother's love will do a thing like this. But would that same mother run in after a murder, liar, a thief, or the person who set the house on fire. Not so much. She would probably not be cheering for his death, or I can imagine a decent person expressing some regret for the senseless death; but risking their lives to save a person who didn't give two cents for them... Now we're talking about the world's kind of love. The world's kind of love will size up the situation.

Sure a mother, a father, a daughter, a husband lost and saved can have what the Bible calls "natural affection". But to give yourself selflessly for the lives of another really requires God's kind of love.

It's not natural to turn the other cheek when someone slaps you, but it does seem right, natural to nurture and try to feed and give to your children. Yeah, sure the world can love, but it's a cheap counterfeit. You talk to that same parent who's child has come against them with everything they've got, and see if that parent does something so selfless without thought. You'll hear that same parent on the stand in court saying they just needed to be put to rest, out of their misery. That their kid was no longer in there, that their "real son/daughter" has been gone a real long time.

It may sound stupid, but sometimes God uses the foolish things of the world to confound the wise.
You have the incredibly ignorant and wrong notion that only Christians can be martyrs.
 
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Paulie079

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He only loves those who follow Him.

To those that don't, He is in no way love.

It depends on your definition of love, because the way that I think about love, your statement is overwhelmingly untrue.

Also, if God is love, He doesn't cease to be love based on the actions of others. It's a part of who He is.

(EDIT: Unless you're saying that from the perception of those who don't follow Him, He isn't love. Is that what you're saying?)
 
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ImperatorWall

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I disagree wholeheartedly, Paul's statements would make little sense if this were true.

Read Romans 9 in it's entirety and there is little doubt Paul is referring to a very real hatred of God directed at Esau's person.

Just for fun:

Strong's entry 3404 for "hate" in Romans 9

Original Word: μισέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: miseó
Phonetic Spelling: (mis-eh'-o)
Short Definition: I hate, detest
Definition: I hate, detest, love less, esteem less.

Usage in the NT (active hate):

Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said , Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

Luke 1:71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

Luke 6:22 Blessed are ye , when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you [from their company], and shall reproach [you], and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.

Luke 19:14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying , We will not have this [man] to reign over us.

John 7:7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth , because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

John 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before [it hated] you.

Titus 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived , serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, [and] hating one another.

1 John 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

Revelation 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

Usage in the NT (passive hate):

Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved .

Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake : but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved .

Luke 21:17 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake.

John 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved .

Ephesians 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

Hebrews 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Jude 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling [them] out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Revelation 2:6 But this thou hast , that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate .


So, looking at all of those verses that use the word, I cannot see one example of "hate" being used to mean anything other than hate as is commonly understood. There is no hidden meaning attributable only to God that lessens the sting of the word.

I can compile a similar list of verses that use it from the OT if you like, but I have no doubt they will show the same thing.
 
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ImperatorWall

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It depends on your definition of love, because the way that I think about love, your statement is overwhelmingly untrue.

Also, if God is love, He doesn't cease to be love based on the actions of others. It's a part of who He is.

(EDIT: Unless you're saying that from the perception of those who don't follow Him, He isn't love. Is that what you're saying?)

God's love is only directed to His elect. He IS love in that it is one of His attributes, but He is NOT love for those that do not follow Him. For them He is only wrath and justice.
 
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ImperatorWall

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Cannot His wrath and justice be loving? I think you've got a false dichotomy going on here.

How can God's wrath and justice be also loving?

How can the justice that condemns men to hell, and the wrath that executes that condemnation, be love in any way, or form?
 
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ImperatorWall

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Because that is the same justice that saves men.

But nevermind, I'm not really into talking to walls.

Justice that saves men?!

You just blew my mind.

It is God's LOVE that saves men! Those of His elect church will never be under or taste His justice. Christ paid the penalty in full. We are free!

He chastises us out of love, not justice. We will be held accountable for our sins on the last day in that we must answer for them, but we will not be judged for them!

To say that God's justice saves men defies Christ's sacrifice! If I were to taste one atom of God's justice I would be crushed into oblivion.

Sorry if I'm emphatic, I just can't believe you said that.
 
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