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Phoebe Ann said:So if the prophet speaks on doctrine, he may be speculating. If he instructs you to wear or not wear something, he isn't speculating.
Phoebe Ann said:So if the prophet speaks on doctrine, he may be speculating. If he instructs you to wear or not wear something, he isn't speculating.
Ran77 said:This does not answer any of the questions I asked in my post. Since I have already responded to this line of thought maybe you can take a moment or two on my questions.
Theway said:Oh please!!! we rely on the intelligence of the people reading these posts to see what your agenda is and it doesn’t do well for your argument.
Theway said:I bet just about everyone reading this knows what the prophet is talking about (and I’m including you) without having to take it to an extreme.
Theway said:We also all know there are OC religions with dress standards that are far more restrictive who claim their restrictions are Biblical and a sin if not followed.
Theway said:Do you wear a head covering and sit silently in your church or was Paul just speculating about that one?
Theway said:Doesn’t the Bible say something about removing the beam out of your own eye first?
McGregor said:The bottom line, as I see it, is this. (1) Because the LDS prophet has spoken, does it mean the following? Are ear rings right or wrong? Because he has spoken on the topic, are ear rings a subject that is to be approached during baptismal and temple recommend interviews?
(2) Tattoos. Are tattoos strictly forbidden for the members of the LDS church? Again, what, if anything, is determined during temple recommend or baptismal interviews? If a person has tattoos, are they prohibited from joining the LDS church? If they get a tattoo as a member of the LDS church, are they excommunicated or dis-fellowshipped?
(3) Because the LDS prophet has spoken on these topics, do his words become doctrine? Will these issues and/or revelations be voted on at conference?
Phoebe Ann said:If you expect answers from others, you have to give answers to others and acknowledge the answers you have already received.
Ran77 said:1. The Church's current stance on earrings is not a statement of them being right or wrong. I think it probably has a lot to do with what is acceptable in our current society. Christ had long hair as was acceptable in His day - it isn't seen as appropriate (although I think it is gaining more acceptance) now.
I don't know how multiple piercings or piercings on men would affect that baptismal interviews. Maybe someone else can add a comment if they know.
2. I know that people with tattoos are not forbidden from joining the Church. I home teach an ex-biker lady who is about 60% covered with tattoos. In fact, she got one with her baptismal date right after she joined. The stake president knows about it and laughs whenever it is mentioned.
3. And just because Church leadership has spoken about a topic - it doesn't automatically become doctrine. It should be taken as good advice - something that the members should carefully consider.
Ran77 said:...
However, the evidence works against your theory. The evidence being the responses that the LDS have to our posts. They seem to understand what I have to say and agree with it most of the time, while they frequently comment about your posts being inaccurate and unrepresentative of our beliefs.
Ran77 said:I'm sure you'll come up with something that refutes the notion that the LDS are the best ones to understand the LDS Doctrine.
Ran said:I didn't ask the prophet. My wife does not have any piercings and neither of us have tattoos. (And just in case you're wondering - I don't have any piercings either.)
Ran said:Are there reasons for avoiding tattoos? Yes.
Are there reasons for avoiding multiple piercings? Yes.
I'm surprised that you can't come up with some reasons on your own. However, I can.
Getting a tattoo runs an unnecessary risk of contracting the Aids virus. There may be other health risks as well, but I'm not sure of what they all are.
Ran said:I'm not sure if there are any health concerns associated with piercings, but if there are that would be a good reason to council against them.
Ran said:However, the strongest reasons I can think of is the appearance of evil. Tattoos and multiple piercings still carry a stigma in our society. Two young men go to a job interview; one wears a suit and the other comes in with spiked hair, multiple piercings, and a skull tattooed to his forehead. Which one is more likely to get the job?
Ran said:In the movies, you want the audience to instantly recognize a character as a bad guy - what do you do? That's right, plaster on a couple of wicked looking tattoos and pierce his nose and the audience will immediately identify him as trouble.
Ran said:Right or wrong, society still largely judges these things to be unacceptable. If you want to avoid the appearance of evil then currently that includes remaining un-tattooed and limited piercing.
Ran77 said:I feel confident that the reasons I have given above represent a good portion of the thinking that is behind the prophet's counsel against these things. They represent good and reasonable reasons to avoid tattoos and multiple piercings. I am not sure why anyone would rail against counsel intended to remove some possible obstacles in our lives.
Ran77 said:I believe the appearance I give will be one of frustration at having to deal with a constant turrent of misrepresentations of the LDS beliefs.
Apex said:Phoebe, including your own words is usually something that is done when trying to discuss something. Just writing a few quotes is considered bad writing style because it doesnt represent your interpretation of those quotes.
McGregor said:... Why not have the leadership issue a proclamation regarding motorcycles? These can get some stereotypical negative images about evil, etc. ...
MormonFriend said:Was it in the Gospel Principles Manual where it specified the difference between a Harley and a Hoover as a Hoover's dirtbag being located internally?
Penitent said:Generally speaking a general authority or others asked to speak at conference will speak on an issue such as avoiding sin, or preparing for temple marriage, or inviting the Holy Ghost by righteous living. In each message that we hear and internalize we gain knowledge of what God would have us do. Words spoken at Conference are not to be taken with a grain of salt. They are for our benefit, just as the words in the scriptures are for our benefit. Eternal life depends on giving heed to the words in the scriptures as well. I hope that is a satisfactory answer.
MormonFriend said:In light of the fact that GBH spoke of our bodies as being a temple, it is extremely important for us to realize its sacredness. I believe that it is against God's will that we disfigure what He has created. Furthermore, people do it to draw attention to themselves, which attitude is counter productive in becoming Christ like.
I do not know the official guidelines, but common sense would tell me that if the tattoo is visible, it should come off. The other common sense issue is if the young man understands the sanctity of his body and that it was a mistake to disfigure it. If he doesn't understand that principle, then likely he doesn't understand the reason for serving a mission.
If I could have only had my scar removed off my shoulders.Wrigley said:So, if the tatoo should be removed before going on a mission, how about other issues. What if the person is overweight? Or has a scar across his forehead? Should those issues be resolved as well?
McGregor said:Are you surprised that your fellow LDSers would agree with you? Of course they do. Over and over, LDS will agree with each other, if for no other reason than to show a united front. I'm NOT saying that this is why the couple of other LDS posters appear to agree with you on this thread. Only saying that we all have our little amen choruses.
McGregor said:Not really called for, is it? Here we are trying to get to the bottom of an important issue and there has to be a personal barb thrown in.
McGregor said:That's cool. Neither do I, but I have some ugly scars from my military experiences. I think that a pretty tattoo would be more appealing, but... I've had enough needles, thank you. The same goes for the piercings. If someone pokes one more hole in me... Well, never mind.
McGregor said:I wonder if the opinion (is that what is is?) of your prophet is based on health or appearance?
McGregor said:I wonder if it would be the same health reason for a man as a woman?
McGregor said:Where do we draw the line as to what we allow society dictate to our beliefs? There are some (of which I am one) who believe that people who divorce and remarry are guilty of adultery. However, society tells me that is okay. I know of LDS members who have divorced and remarried. It seems that this is not encouraged but alright under certain circumstances. To me this act is NOT avoiding the appearance of evil, but becoming the face of it.
McGregor said:To a degree, but society be darned. We are not to be to this world. Romans 12:2 says, "And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God."
Why not have the leadership issue a proclamation regarding motorcycles? These can get some stereotypical negative images about evil, etc.
McGregor said:You are probably correct in listing the reasons, but it still boils down to is it (or are they) a commandment (because your prophet made the statement) or is it a suggestion because it is probably the wise thing to do? More simply put, is it a sin to for women to wear more than one pair of earrings? Is it a sin to be tattooed?
McGregor said:However, this is a self-inflicted calling which should have been embarked upon when you were assure that you had a healthy dose the gift of patience. Personally, I don't believe that there are many misrepresentations, only bantering by some LDS over semantics, vis a vis, commandments vs. advice or eternal life vs. everlasting life, etc.
McGregor said:I feel that Phoebe Ann brought up a very important subject. Just when are a prophet's musings to adhered to or merely pondered about?
McGregor said:Anyway, have a nice week-end.
Wrigley said:So, if the tatoo should be removed before going on a mission, how about other issues. What if the person is overweight? Or has a scar across his forehead? Should those issues be resolved as well?
I have a friend who is very proud of his scars. Scars can and are a vanity in his case. And I would be shocked if it weren't in others.MormonFriend said:Keep in context the reasoning for most tattoos, vanity to draw attention to oneself. Scars are not vanity.
Overweight, IMO, is a sign of out of control appetites and should be considered as a reason for many mission or temple restrictions. I, myself, would do better as a temple goer if I practiced what I am preaching here if I lost 25 pounds.
Did he put the scars there intentionally to get attention?Wrigley said:I have a friend who is very proud of his scars. Scars can and are a vanity in his case. And I would be shocked if it weren't in others.
It is man centered because we believe God wants us to have bridled all of our passions? Overweight is, for most people, an evidence that our passion for food is not under control.Wrigley said:I've made the point before that mormonism is a very man centered religion. I believe your comments here is a prime example of that.MF said:Overweight, IMO, is a sign of out of control appetites and should be considered as a reason for many mission or temple restrictions. I, myself, would do better as a temple goer if I practiced what I am preaching here if I lost 25 pounds.
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