Are LDS Prophets Only Speculating?

[Rescued One]

It is a sign of rebellion because we have always been told not to do those things. Is it because the prophet doesn't like them, or because Christ would rather we kept our bodies clean from those things? I don't know, but he is the prophet and if an LDS person is going to call him a prophet and then willfully go against his counsel, they are in rebellion.

Did Christ say that our bodies are dirty if we get them pierced or tattooed or did Hinckley say that? What defiles our bodies?

From the answers given in this thread, the excuse that "the prophet was only speculating" doesn't really apply.

 

[MormonFriend]

Did Christ say that our bodies are dirty if we get them pierced or tattooed or did Hinckley say that? What defiles our bodies?

From the answers given in this thread, the excuse that "the prophet was only speculating" doesn't really apply.

Changing the appearance of what God made it to be is defiling our body. This is common sense to me, and I don't ever recall any official statement as to specifically why.

What reasons do people have tattoos? Or jewlery for that matter? Perfume? Make up? To draw attention to themselves. Of course now it is so common place that you draw more attention by not wearing make up. Did Cleopatra start the fad? Look at all the billions of dollars devoted to vanity, while nations starve.

Since make up and jewlrey are so common place, the only way to draw attention now is to go extreme, and when that becomes common, what next? In that, I see wisdom in Pres. Hinckley's drawn line of going overboard.

Perfume gives my wife migranes, what a reward for going to church!

All these things are deterrants that take our focus off of the real meaning of life. Beauty is not on the exterior, yet that is the priority most people. How do you change the course of a growing river?

Don't worry much on my soap box sermon on make up. I have heard the other side plenty from the women in my life.

 

[Rescued One]

Changing the appearance of what God made it to be is defiling our body.

What scripture supports your view?

Matthew 15
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

Is plastic surgery wrong? Suppose a child is born with only holes for ears? What then?

This is common sense to me, and I don't ever recall any official statement as to specifically why.

Are you saying that the women in your life don't have common sense?

What reasons do people have tattoos? Or jewlery for that matter? Perfume? Make up? To draw attention to themselves.

They all have the same motive? Let me see. Do LDS stores sell LDS jewelry so church members can draw attention to themselves? Do LDS missionaries wear dark suits and white shirts so people can spot them coming down the street?

Of course now it is so common place that you draw more attention by not wearing make up.

So women go without make-up to draw attention to themselves? We just can't please you, can we?

Did Cleopatra start the fad? Look at all the billions of dollars devoted to vanity, while nations starve.

And considering the fact that many "religious" people live in very nice homes, have swimming pools, drive nice cars, eat at expensive restaurants, get massages, it kind of leaves the hungry out on a limb, doesn't it?

Since make up and jewlrey are so common place, the only way to draw attention now is to go extreme, and when that becomes common, what next? In that, I see wisdom in Pres. Hinckley's drawn line of going overboard.

Why does one man determine what is "overboard?" I think maybe Gordon B. Hinckley is just speculating!

Perfume gives my wife migranes, what a reward for going to church!

My allergy to perfume makes me cough; my coughing can really annoy people at church.

All these things are deterrants that take our focus off of the real meaning of life. Beauty is not on the exterior, yet that is the priority most people. How do you change the course of a growing river?

Maybe you should let God change the course of rivers.

Don't worry much on my soap box sermon on make up. I have heard the other side plenty from the women in my life.

I'm not one of the offended! I see no point in hiding behind make-up. I'm just so gorgeous without it!

Can't you see that Pres. Hinckley is speculating? He has no scripture to back up his complaint about earrings.

 

[Rescued One]

Don't look if you have a sensitive nature or weak stomach:

http://www.mymultiplesclerosis.co.uk/misc/juliannawetmore.html

 

[MormonFriend]

What scripture supports your view?

Matthew 15
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

Is plastic surgery wrong? Suppose a child is born with only holes for ears? What then?



Are you saying that the women in your life don't have common sense?



They all have the same motive? Let me see. Do LDS stores sell LDS jewelry so church members can draw attention to themselves? Do LDS missionaries wear dark suits and white shirts so people can spot them coming down the street?



So women go without make-up to draw attention to themselves? We just can't please you, can we?



And considering the fact that many "religious" people live in very nice homes, have swimming pools, drive nice cars, eat at expensive restaurants, get massages, it kind of leaves the hungry out on a limb, doesn't it?



Why does one man determine what is "overboard?" I think maybe Gordon B. Hinckley is just speculating!




My allergy to perfume makes me cough; my coughing can really annoy people at church.



Maybe you should let God change the course of rivers.



I'm not one of the offended! I see no point in hiding behind make-up. I'm just so gorgeous without it!

Can't you see that Pres. Hinckley is speculating? He has no scripture to back up his complaint about earrings.

They didn't have such gross problems with out of control vanity like today.

Do you see anything wrong with this picture attached? (I am sure it is computer generated, but it makes a point.)

Your argument is silly, as there are, of course, some vital plastic surgeries that have nothing to do with pride and vanity. I had thought of this before my last post, but I figured it wasn't necessary to brng it out for this discussion.

 

[Rescued One]

They didn't have such gross problems with out of control vanity like today.

I would have to disagree.

Leviticus 19 (NIV)
28 'Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD.

Leviticus 19 (KJV)
28 Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.

Ezekiel 23
39 For when they had slain their children to their idols, then they came the same day into my sanctuary to profane it; and, lo, thus have they done in the midst of mine house.

40 And furthermore, that ye have sent for men to come from far, unto whom a messenger was sent; and, lo, they came: for whom thou didst wash thyself, paintedst thy eyes, and deckedst thyself with ornaments,

41 And satest upon a stately bed, and a table prepared before it, whereupon thou hast set mine incense and mine oil.

But I believe you are wrong in assuming that all tattoos are more vain than women's eye shadow and mascara.

Do you see anything wrong with this picture attached? (I am sure it is computer generated, but it makes a point.)

When you say it's wrong, what exactly do you mean? Is it wrong because it isn't commonplace?

http://www.guampdn.com/guampublishing/special-sections/parenting/1104/002prettyearrings.html

"For milennia they have played roles in many cultures, serving as identification, protection, and decoration." - National Geographic

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/tattoos/photo6.html

Your argument is silly, as there are, of course, some vital plastic surgeries that have nothing to do with pride and vanity. I had thought of this before my last post, but I figured it wasn't necessary to brng it out for this discussion.

You ignored most of my post.

You said, "Changing the appearance of what God made it to be is defiling our body."

God allows people to be born with birth defects (even facial birthmarks).

 

[Penitent]

Leviticus 19 (NIV)
28 'Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD.

Leviticus 19 (KJV)
28 Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.

First you say that Christ did not tell us to tattoo or pierce our bodies and then you give this to somehow support your view. I know this is the OT, but who exactly do you think the Lord is in these scriptures? It is the premortal Christ.

Also, whether Christ's words on the subject are recorded in scripture or not, we believe that the prophet has access to God with concern for all of us, especially the members of the church. If Christ gives the prophet council, the prophet councils us. Christ is alive and so is his communication with His prophets.

The people you have pointed out in National Geographic may be wonderful people, but they are a great example of a people devoid of Christ. They are truely the natural man. And we both know that the natural man is an enemy to God. Since they have probably not had the message of Christ, at least through LDS theology they have a chance to be saved?

 

[skylark1]

I read the following at Wikipedia, under History of Tattoos.

Middle East
An archaic practice in the Middle East involved people cutting themselves and rubbing in ash during a period of mourning after an individual had died. It was a sign of respect for the dead and a symbol of reverence and a sense of the profound loss for the newly departed; and it is surmised that the ash that was rubbed into the self-inflicted wounds came from the actual funeral pyres that were used to cremate bodies. In essence, people were literally carrying with them a reminder of the recently deceased in the form of tattoos created by ash being rubbed into shallow wounds cut or slashed into the body, usually the forearms.​

Seen in this context, it appears that tattooing carried a significance associated with other religions. I don't know if the people believed that the this practice would help them to be able to communicate with their deceased loved one, or if they believed that it was a way of obtaining power, but it seems quite possible that the reason why tattoos were forbidden is because of an occultic or superstitious link.

I also read the following:

Having said all this, how are we to answer the original question, “Is tattooing forbidden in Scripture?” In regards to Leviticus 19:28 the major issue seems to be motivation and cultural context for tattooing not the practice in and of itself. Therefore, in relation to modern day tattooing we must say that while not all tattooing is forbidden some is. Tattooing for superstitious and occultic (and cultic) purposes is directly prohibited just as witchcraft and sorcery are prohibited for the Christian. Especially tattooing which involves an attempted interaction with the dead. Also, any attempts to control, or otherwise affect supernatural forces through tattooing is condemned. On the surface these may seem like antiquated prohibitions, however there are still people who engage in tattooing for these reasons. It would also seem that tattooing as a memorial for the deceased is also prohibited. However, there may be some gray area here. (This issue will be dealt with later.)

http://www.ransomfellowship.org/bodymod.html
​

 

[christopher123]

The dude below has some 'splainin' to do. I hope Monson and Packer, etc., live long or he's going to run out of canvas.


Hinckley...lower right next to Howard Hunter

Chris <><

 

[christopher123]

For everyone's knowledge and edification, I have taken the time to label each of the tat's on the good brother so that everyone will know who are the LDS prophets.

One of them was a surprize to me.


Chris <><

 

[Rescued One]

First you say that Christ did not tell us to tattoo or pierce our bodies and then you give this to somehow support your view. I know this is the OT, but who exactly do you think the Lord is in these scriptures? It is the premortal Christ.

See skylark's post.

Also, whether Christ's words on the subject are recorded in scripture or not, we believe that the prophet has access to God with concern for all of us, especially the members of the church. If Christ gives the prophet council, the prophet councils us. Christ is alive and so is his communication with His prophets.

Then we are back to the subject of the thread. Aren't your prophets only speculating?

The people you have pointed out in National Geographic may be wonderful people, but they are a great example of a people devoid of Christ. They are truely the natural man. And we both know that the natural man is an enemy to God. Since they have probably not had the message of Christ, at least through LDS theology they have a chance to be saved?

Don't jump to conclusions. They may have heard the gospel. Will a missionary say, "You need surgery on your lip if you believe in Christ?"

Look at the tattoos Chris posted. What do they mean?

 

[Ran77]

Is plastic surgery wrong? Suppose a child is born with only holes for ears? What then?

When I ream Mormon Friend's post, it stood out pretty clearly that he referred to vanity when he was talking about plastic surgery. Seldom does the LDS Church make a total prohibition on items. Most of the time, there is a proper time and place for many things - such as plastic surgery. Exceptions are even allowed for something as serious as abortion - when a rape is involved.

I don't see how it helps to take a stance of the LDS and try to apply it to situations that we don't believe it applys to. It's just not an honest tactic.

They all have the same motive? Let me see. Do LDS stores sell LDS jewelry so church members can draw attention to themselves?

I would expect someone who understands the LDS to be able to answer that.

The correct answer is: no. The motive for the stores I imagine is profit - like any store, but the motive for most of the members (I would guess) is jewelry that remind themselves of Christ and what we as a people stand for.

Do LDS missionaries wear dark suits and white shirts so people can spot them coming down the street?

Again, those who understand the LDS will know that the reason the missionaries wear suits is to be presentable. Clothing is an outward indication of the person within. Well, not always, but wearing clothing is usually about making a statement of what you want people to perceive lies within. In this case, respectable, honest, and clean young men.

If they dressed for visibility they would wear safety orange vests.

And considering the fact that many "religious" people live in very nice homes, have swimming pools, drive nice cars, eat at expensive restaurants, get massages, it kind of leaves the hungry out on a limb, doesn't it?

Yes. Maybe there should be less of that and more donations to the hungry. How do you think Christ would respond to this question?

Why does one man determine what is "overboard?" I think maybe Gordon B. Hinckley is just speculating!

You are welcome to think what you want. However, the statement that came out a few years back that defined several acceptable dress practices is more than speculation. It was given as a direction from the prophet.

I'm sorry that it is difficult for you to determine speculation from directive. Of course, I have a sense that some of it is deliberate.

Can't you see that Pres. Hinckley is speculating? He has no scripture to back up his complaint about earrings.

Are you stating that the prophets need to provide scripture to back up their statements? What scriptures did Moses use to backup his presentation of the ten commandments?

 

[Rescued One]

Exceptions are even allowed for something as serious as abortion - when a rape is involved.

A baby should be murdered because its mother was raped???

I don't see how it helps to take a stance of the LDS and try to apply it to situations that we don't believe it applys to. It's just not an honest tactic.

Are we supposed to know what you're talking about?

Again, those who understand the LDS will know that the reason the missionaries wear suits is to be presentable. Clothing is an outward indication of the person within. Well, not always, but wearing clothing is usually about making a statement of what you want people to perceive lies within. In this case, respectable, honest, and clean young men.

A suit represents a respectable, honest, clean young man?

1 Samuel 16
7 But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

You are welcome to think what you want. However, the statement that came out a few years back that defined several acceptable dress practices is more than speculation. It was given as a direction from the prophet.

So what the prophet says isn't just speculation.

I'm sorry that it is difficult for you to determine speculation from directive. Of course, I have a sense that some of it is deliberate.

Are you stating that the prophets need to provide scripture to back up their statements? What scriptures did Moses use to backup his presentation of the ten commandments?

Have we not asked the importance of what a prophet says and been told it isn't doctrine if it isn't in the Standard Works?

"If I should say something which is contrary to that which is written and approved by the Church generally, no one is under obligation to accept it. Everything that I say and everything that any other person says must square itself with that which the Lord has revealed, or it should be rejected." - Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, p. 5-6


"A canon is a standard, or principle, or rule of doctrine and faith by which all else is measured. It is common among Latter-day Saints to speak of their four volumes of scripture as the standard works. Thus the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price, as well as the Bible, are canonical books.

"These volumes of added latter-day scripture were selected by prophetic insight and then approved by the voice of the people in conference assembled, to stand as canonical measuring rods." - Kevin K. Winters, Sources of LDS Doctrine: A Look at Official and Non-Official Documents

 

[Penitent]

See skylark's post.

It gave a decent history of mourning tattoo practices and then speculates on the reason why Christ might denounce the practice.

Then we are back to the subject of the thread. Aren't your prophets only speculating?

No, because they are in direct contact with the Lord.

Don't jump to conclusions. They may have heard the gospel. Will a missionary say, "You need surgery on your lip if you believe in Christ?"

No, but I don't think they sinned. If they knew better and willingly rebelled they were in sin. If they accepted the gospel they would probably be working toward putting clothes on their backs and becoming worthy for the temple. There are few things that a man cannot overcome through the atonement. These physical things can be overcome.

Look at the tattoos Chris posted. What do they mean?

What about them? They look rediculous to me, but we all make our own decisions. This man has chosen to have tattoos of the Savior and the latter day prophets on his back. The beauty of the thing is that Christ will judge this man's heart and his actions. Not me.

 

[ZealouS]

I personally do not see the point in tattoo's or piercings. Most people do not and cannot bring glory to God by such outward adornements. However, I do not believe the LORD will judge anyone for having either of them.

It is interesting to note that in the OT an Isrealite would pierce the ear of a slave who did not wish to leave his master using an awl. Because of this, a pierced ear was often symbolic of slavery or ownership. Once this was done, the slave was the servant of his master for the rest of his life.

I must confess that I have felt tempted to get a tattoo once or twice. Perhaps a sweet OT verse in Hebrew on my arm or back. Then I remember that the word of the LORD is written on my heart and I do not need any external reminders or proclaimations of my love for the LORD.

I will contribute a few verses to the subject for everyone to read and think about.

1 Timothy 2:9-10
9I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

This would appear to be a much more strict request then the LDS prophets. Why? The Bible holds nothing back and the writers are not trying to please men or women. In the case of the LDS church, it would appear that they have lost (or never had) truth on what the Bible considers modesty. It's not only them but probabley atleast 90% of the world with them.

1 Peter 3:1-6
1Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, 2when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. 3Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. 4Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight. 5For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands, 6like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear.

One could argue that the above verses from 1 Peter 3 could refer to a woman solely relying on outward adornements to be beautiful while neglecting spiritual beauty. However, if we keep what Paul wrote in mind then gold, pearls, braided hair, and expensive clothes are not modest.

Isaiah 3:16-23
16 The LORD says,
"The women of Zion are haughty,
walking along with outstretched necks,
flirting with their eyes,
tripping along with mincing steps,
with ornaments jingling on their ankles. 17 Therefore the Lord will bring sores on the heads of the women of Zion;
the LORD will make their scalps bald."
18 In that day the Lord will snatch away their finery: the bangles and headbands and crescent necklaces, 19 the earrings and bracelets and veils, 20 the headdresses and ankle chains and sashes, the perfume bottles and charms, 21 the signet rings and nose rings, 22 the fine robes and the capes and cloaks, the purses 23 and mirrors, and the linen garments and tiaras and shawls.



If jewlery leads to a woman (or man) being haughty then it would appear that the LORD does not approve of such things. However, as Pheobe pointed out and Christ taught :


Mark 7:20-23
20He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' "


Perhaps ones intention or purpose for wearing jewlery, piercing their ears, or getting tattoo's is everything. However, it is not for me to judge. Review the scriptures above and allow the Spirit to guide you.


Christ guide us,
Jed

 

[christopher123]

Ever wonder why Hinckley talks about earrings (one good...two bad) but has never mentioned that bit of elective surgery which is oh so ever common along the Utah and California sister mormons call "augmentation". I had a friend move into a ward in California (Santa Monica) and she said that more women had them than didn't.

I'll give you a hint for one of the reasons. With the rare exception for masectomy reconstruction, those having augementation are higher tithe payers than those not.


Chris <><




editted for spelling...there are probably more

 

[Rescued One]

No, because they are in direct contact with the Lord.

Other members have told us that your prophets were merely speculating.

No, but I don't think they sinned. If they knew better and willingly rebelled they were in sin.

If you tell them it is wrong, does that make it wrong?

If they accepted the gospel they would probably be working toward putting clothes on their backs and becoming worthy for the temple. There are few things that a man cannot overcome through the atonement. These physical things can be overcome.

Many of us have accepted the Gospel and are barred from entering an LDS temple.

 

[Rescued One]

I personally do not see the point in tattoo's or piercings. Most people do not and cannot bring glory to God by such outward adornements. However, I do not believe the LORD will judge anyone for having either of them.

It is interesting to note that in the OT an Isrealite would pierce the ear of a slave who did not wish to leave his master using an awl. Because of this, a pierced ear was often symbolic of slavery or ownership. Once this was done, the slave was the servant of his master for the rest of his life.

I must confess that I have felt tempted to get a tattoo once or twice. Perhaps a sweet OT verse in Hebrew on my arm or back. Then I remember that the word of the LORD is written on my heart and I do not need any external reminders or proclaimations of my love for the LORD.

I will contribute a few verses to the subject for everyone to read and think about.

1 Timothy 2:9-10
9I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

This would appear to be a much more strict request then the LDS prophets. Why? The Bible holds nothing back and the writers are not trying to please men or women. In the case of the LDS church, it would appear that they have lost (or never had) truth on what the Bible considers modesty. It's not only them but probabley atleast 90% of the world with them.

1 Peter 3:1-6
1Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, 2when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. 3Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. 4Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight. 5For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands, 6like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear.

One could argue that the above verses from 1 Peter 3 could refer to a woman solely relying on outward adornements to be beautiful while neglecting spiritual beauty. However, if we keep what Paul wrote in mind then gold, pearls, braided hair, and expensive clothes are not modest.

Isaiah 3:16-23
16 The LORD says,
"The women of Zion are haughty,
walking along with outstretched necks,
flirting with their eyes,
tripping along with mincing steps,
with ornaments jingling on their ankles. 17 Therefore the Lord will bring sores on the heads of the women of Zion;
the LORD will make their scalps bald."
18 In that day the Lord will snatch away their finery: the bangles and headbands and crescent necklaces, 19 the earrings and bracelets and veils, 20 the headdresses and ankle chains and sashes, the perfume bottles and charms, 21 the signet rings and nose rings, 22 the fine robes and the capes and cloaks, the purses 23 and mirrors, and the linen garments and tiaras and shawls.



If jewlery leads to a woman (or man) being haughty then it would appear that the LORD does not approve of such things. However, as Pheobe pointed out and Christ taught :


Mark 7:20-23
20He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' "


Perhaps ones intention or purpose for wearing jewlery, piercing their ears, or getting tattoo's is everything. However, it is not for me to judge. Review the scriptures above and allow the Spirit to guide you.


Christ guide us,
Jed

My thoughts exactly.

There have been changes in LDS temple garments over the years. Originally they were only worn by men.

They were more modest in the beginning, but over the years they were adapted to go with fashion trends.

 

[Swart]

For everyone's knowledge and edification, I have taken the time to label each of the tat's on the good brother so that everyone will know who are the LDS prophets.

One of them was a surprize to me.

Bruce Villanch?

 

[christopher123]

Bruce Villanch?

I know!!!! Who would of thunk it? It certainly changes my perception of him.





Chris <><