Are Israel and the Church Distinct?

[TheSeabass]

God's dealings of the gentile church and the jews are different in this respect. Firstly, God does not deal with them at the same time. He deals with the Israelites as a nation but deals with the Gentiles individually as a Church. The Gentile church is a bouquet of different flowers or different nationalities and will be a very small number.

God's dealings with Israel was in the natural realm, natural war, promised land, harvests and so on. They are more political orientated or influential if you want to call it that.

God deals with the Gentile Church or Bride in the Spiritual Realm. Spiritual warfare if you know Her history through the last 2000 years and Her end time promise will be the change of our bodies, the rapture if you will.

When the Jews rejected the gospel it wen to the gentiles. Likewise the gentile majority's rejection will turn the gospel back to the jews, the 144 000.

Acts 14:36
Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Romans 11:25
“For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob

Romans 10:12; Galatians 3:28; Colossians 3:11 God did away with Jew and Gentile for all are one is Christ so God does not deal differently among men. If a person who happens to be a Jew is to be saved, he must be saved now through Christ as all who are saved will be saved. No salvation for the Jew outside the church, the body of Christ.

 

[Small Fish]

Romans 10:12; Galatians 3:28; Colossians 3:11 God did away with Jew and Gentile for all are one is Christ so God does not deal differently among men. If a person who happens to be a Jew is to be saved, he must be saved now through Christ as all who are saved will be saved. No salvation for the Jew outside the church, the body of Christ.

You cannot annul one Scripture by another. You need both to get the right picture. The Bible is not a shopping centre where you choose what you want and leave what you don't want. Did you even read the Scriptures I gave? How do you just dispell them?

 

[stuart lawrence]

You cannot annul one Scripture by another. You need both to get the right picture. The Bible is not a shopping centre where you choose what you want and leave what you don't want. Did you even read the Scriptures I gave? How do you just dispell them?

It's simple isn't if. God has the absolute right, if he so chooses to bring every Jew alive, at a time to come to look upon the one who they pierced and have their eyes opened to the truth. And each clan will accept Christ as their saviour.( Zech ch12)
And according to Zechariah, God will choose to do it. No salvation outside of Christ, absolutely

 

[TheSeabass]

You cannot annul one Scripture by another. You need both to get the right picture. The Bible is not a shopping centre where you choose what you want and leave what you don't want. Did you even read the Scriptures I gave? How do you just dispell them?

Rom 11, God cast fleshly Israel off so they have to find salvation in Christ and His church or be lost. God promised the Jews no future kingdom with Christ on earth ruling. That idea contradicts a host of scriptures.

If Christ did not set up His kingdom, the church back on Pentecost in Acts 2 then what is the eternal fate of all Jews who have lived and died over the last 2000 years? What good would a future earthly kingdom of Christ do them?

 

[Small Fish]

Rom 11, God cast fleshly Israel off so they have to find salvation in Christ and His church or be lost. God promised the Jews no future kingdom with Christ on earth ruling. That idea contradicts a host of scriptures.

If Christ did not set up His kingdom, the church back on Pentecost in Acts 2 then what is the eternal fate of all Jews who have lived and died over the last 2000 years? What good would a future earthly kingdom of Christ do them?

The Word is going back to Israel. That's Scripture. I don't know how you can see it any other way. Daniel speaks of it, Roman speaks of it, Genesis speaks of it, Revelation speaks of it, Jesus Himself speaks of it. But the jews had to be blinded to give us gentiles a chance. Thats God's order. We were only grafted in. They will receive it, it's foreordained. You actually robbing yourself from so much of the Scripture pointing to this great event.

 

[Traveling teacher]

There are many scriptures that show that the Nation of Israel is important and will stand to the end of the age and a remnant will someday be saved as it is today.....
Interesesting fact:
there was only a few Jewish led churches in Israel in the 1970's
now there are close to 200 Jewish led congregations in Israel
Romans 11:1-2
Has God refected His people? No
Gentiles should not be arogant or God will cut you off
Romans 11:11-12
Gentiles are grafted in and unatural branches.......
Israel will be grafted in again
Romans 11:24-26
10 gentiles will grab the garment of a Jew and say lead us to your God
Zechariah 8:23

 

[TheSeabass]

The Word is going back to Israel. That's Scripture. I don't know how you can see it any other way. Daniel speaks of it, Roman speaks of it, Genesis speaks of it, Revelation speaks of it, Jesus Himself speaks of it. But the jews had to be blinded to give us gentiles a chance. Thats God's order. We were only grafted in. They will receive it, it's foreordained. You actually robbing yourself from so much of the Scripture pointing to this great event.

So you are saying Jews from the time of Christ will be eternally lost not given any hope of salvation?

 

[Small Fish]

So you are saying Jews from the time of Christ will be eternally lost not given any hope of salvation?

No, as a nation God do not deal with them until the end. Judgment struck Israel 70AD scattering them all over the world only to return in the last century. Jesus spoke if them as the fig tree budding...

But individuals of jewish origion were allowed to come into the fold as long as they came through the door

But God will make Himself known again to the jews as Joseph made himself known to his brethren while his bride was in the palace

 

[TheSeabass]

There are many scriptures that show that the Nation of Israel is important and will stand to the end of the age and a remnant will someday be saved as it is today.....
Interesesting fact:
there was only a few Jewish led churches in Israel in the 1970's
now there are close to 200 Jewish led congregations in Israel
Romans 11:1-2
Has God refected His people? No
Gentiles should not be arogant or God will cut you off
Romans 11:11-12
Gentiles are grafted in and unatural branches.......
Israel will be grafted in again
Romans 11:24-26
10 gentiles will grab the garment of a Jew and say lead us to your God
Zechariah 8:23

Spiritual Israel the church is what will stand, not physical Israel for they were cut off. Jeremiah 19:11 it was prophesied the Israel will be broken not to be put back together, Christ said they are scattered as dust in the wind (Matthew 21:44) hence they will never exist as a nation of God's people ever again. Again, in Romans 11 God cast off the Jews due to their rejection of Him and part of God's punishment was the providential destruction of all documents of Jewish lineage in AD70 by the Roman army. There is no person alive today who may be a Jew who can trace his lineage back to any of the 12 tribes. God's people today are Christians not a country in the Middle that goes by the name Israel.

In Romans 11:1-2 "I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,"
When Paul said God hath not cast away His people, "His people" here refers to Christians not fleshly Jews for they WERE CAST OFF per Romans 11:11-23. In verse 1 Paul points out he was a fleshly Jew but he was not cast off because he became a Christian, God's people who were NOT cast off.

The Jews were cast off for they rejected Christ and His church yet the Gentiles obeyed therefore grafted in as God's chosen people> Christians.

Romans 9:6 "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:"

Obviously there are 2 different Israels under consideration. Paul knew God had cut fleshly Israel off (Romans 11) and Paul is refuting the Jew's argument in Romans 9 that God was unrighteous in cutting them off, that God did not keep His promise to save the Jews. Yet God promised to save the Jews throu Christ and His body the church and the Jews rejection of Christ and His body does not constitute GOd not keeping His promise. Paul said "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." in that God promised Abraham all nations (including Jews) in Abraham would be blessed, (Genesis 18:18) the NT gospel was for all nations, all creatures, including Jews (Mark 16:15,16). When God cut the Jews off, if God made salvation impossible for them then God would have to repent of what He told Abraham and change the great commission. Yet God did keep His promise to save the Jews by sending Christ to them and setting up the church. If (1) God cut the Jews off (2) Christ did not set up the church His body, then the Jews would be lost with not hope, God failed in keeping His promise to the Jews and Paul's argument fails. Back to Romans 9:6 Paul's point is showing that all of spiritual Israel [the church] is not made up of fleshly Israel. That God's word did not fail, for God did deliver on the Messiah and the church as He promised and since fleshly Israel rejected Christ and His church then not all of fleshly Israel make up spiritual Israel where salvation is found that was promised by God.

Yet Christ did set up His spiritual Kingdom, spiritual Israel the church where the Jews could find salvation. Those Jews in Acts 2 who obeyed the gospel were added to the church, the body of Christ as with the first Gentile converts in Acts 10. Peter said in Acts 15:11 that Jew and Gentile are saved in like manner way and that is by obeying the gospel and being added to the church. So there is no future dispensation where Jews will be saved any different than the Jews and Gentiles were saved in Acts 2 and 10.

 

[TheSeabass]

No, as a nation God do not deal with them until the end. Judgment struck Israel 70AD scattering them all over the world only to return in the last century. Jesus spoke if them as the fig tree budding...

Jeremiah 19:11 "And shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Even so will I break this people and this city, as one breaketh a potter's vessel, that cannot be made whole again: and they shall bury them in Tophet, till there be no place to bury."

But individuals of jewish origion were allowed to come into the fold as long as they came through the door

But God will make Himself known again to the jews as Joseph made himself known to his brethren while his bride was in the palace

We know from Romans 11 God cast off fleshly Israel, hence they were no longer His chosen people leaving fleshly Israel in a lost state. Also, if Christ did not set up the church, His kingdom, in Acts 2 at Pentecost then that made salvation for the Jews impossible and the Jews had a valid point in Romans 9-11 in God's word coming to nought, of no effect for God failed to keep His promise to save them.

You say individuals of Jewish origion were allowed to come into the fold as long as they came through the door. What door? If Christ failed to set up the church, His spiritual kingdom, then there was no door of salvation for the Jew to enter.

 

[Small Fish]

Jeremiah 19:11 "And shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Even so will I break this people and this city, as one breaketh a potter's vessel, that cannot be made whole again: and they shall bury them in Tophet, till there be no place to bury."



We know from Romans 11 God cast off fleshly Israel, hence they no longer His chosen people leaving fleshly Israel in a lost state. Also, if Christ did not set up the church, His kingdom, in Acts 2 at Pentecost then that made salvation for the Jews impossible and the Jews had a valid point in Romans 9 in God's word coming to nought, of no effect for God failed to keep His promise to save them.

You say individuals of Jewish origion were allowed to come into the fold as long as they came through the door. What door? If Christ failed to set up the church, His spiritual kingdom, then there was no door of salvation for the Jew to enter.

You mis one point. Scripture still say the Gospel shall return to the Jews, the 144 000. Little Benjamin.

Don't you know the door?

John 10:9 (KJV)

9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

 

[TheSeabass]

You mis one point. Scripture still say the Gospel shall return to the Jews, the 144 000. Little Benjamin.

Don't you know the door?

John 10:9 (KJV)

9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

The gospel is for everyone now, all nations every creature, Mark 16;15-16; Matthew 28:19-20 not in the future. If not, then God did not keep His promise.

Christ is the door in that context, yet if Christ did not set up the church, then how could the Jews find salvation? Can salvation be found OUTSIDE the body of Christ? Are you suggesting people can be saved without the body of Christ?

 

[Small Fish]

The gospel is for everyone now, all nations every creature, Mark 16;15-16; Matthew 28:19-20 not in the future. If not, then God did not keep His promise.

Christ is the door in that context, yet if Christ did not set up the church, then how could the Jews find salvation? Can salvation be found OUTSIDE the body of Christ? Are you suggesting people can be saved without the body of Christ?

No. Only one door we all enter through now.

 

[Small Fish]

The gospel is for everyone now, all nations every creature, Mark 16;15-16; Matthew 28:19-20 not in the future. If not, then God did not keep His promise.

Christ is the door in that context, yet if Christ did not set up the church, then how could the Jews find salvation? Can salvation be found OUTSIDE the body of Christ? Are you suggesting people can be saved without the body of Christ?

The reason God don't work with the Jewish nation and the Gentile Bride at the same timd is because of where the mercy seat is. If you recall in the wilderness Israel followed the Pillar of Fire by night and the cloud by day. It was this Piller of Fire that came down and resided between the cherubs above the mercy seat.

As long as the Piller of Fire resided in one place Israel would camped there. The moment it moved on Israel had to follow.

All that means is we must follow the leading of the Lord in order to find mercy.

This is where Israel failed at the coming of Jesus. The failed to follow that the Pillar of Fire when the mercy seat moved from the law to grace.

Judgment followed Jerusalem because rejecting mercy leaves only judgment. The mercy seat was with the Gentile Church or Bride of Christ for 2000 years over 7 church ages. At the end of this 2000 years the Gentiles are prophesied to reject the Pillar of Fire again as according to the Laodecian church age in the Book of Revelation.

Now the Pillar of Fire goes back to Israel to make known the Messiah to them. This is the day that no gentile will ever be saved again and judgment be poured out in the great tribulation upon those who rejected Him.