Are images of Jesus allowed?

[prodromos]

That image was modeled by new converts after the likeness of their pagan temple priests (who were known for their homosexual participation in the pagan rituals of the ancient world. https://www.jstor.org/stable/1062813

I suspect that very few people here are registered members of jstor. I'm not, so if you wish to provide any 'evidence' from this source you will either need to post snapshots of the relevant pages, or copy/paste text from the relevant pages.

 

[prodromos]

Have you got a reference for that? In ancient Greek it comes from the verb κομάω, "I have long hair".

I'll see if I can find anything. I learned this while working as network admin at the Centre for the Greek Language in Thessaloniki, Greece. I'm now back in Australia so no longer have access to their library.

 

[Roymond]

Keep in mind! After bleeding from being whipped 36 times by a trained Roman guard, Jesus was still able to pick up a 300-pound cross and carry it halfway up a hill before he collapsed.
What is the weight of the cross that Jesus carried?

Jesus didn't carry the whole cross, that wasn't part of the punishment for sedition. He carried the crosspiece, which would have been similar in weight to a modern wooden railroad tie, like the ones used in landscaping sometimes, which come in at about 120 pounds -- still pretty hefty. And it wasn't just "up a hill"; the procedure was that the condemned would be led on a somewhat wandering path through the city, which showed that Rome had the power to use a city's streets as it pleased while maximizing the number of people watching.

BTW, that trained Roman wasn't a mere guard, he was a specialist. He had to wield the scourge just enough to leave the victim with the strength to carry the crosspiece but also enough that the victim wouldn't make it all the way to the execution site but would stumble along the way. It was part of the declaration/demonstration of Rome's power, to let the legionnaire in charge pick someone at random from the crowd and require him to help, a statement that unless you were a Roman citizen you were Caesar's slave.

BTW, contrary to pictures, Jesus wouldn't have been allowed to drag that crosspiece, it went across both shoulders and his hands would have been tied to it.
Trivia: if someone condemned for sedition owned a house or business, the crosspiece was a beam pulled out of the house or business, generally the one over the doorway, thus destroying the entryway and much of the front wall along with collapsing part of the roof. Punishment of someone for sedition was a spectacle designed to instill fear of the power of Rome.

 

[Roymond]

I'll see if I can find anything. I learned this while working as network admin at the Centre for the Greek Language in Thessaloniki, Greece. I'm now back in Australia so no longer have access to their library.

I can imagine the meaning morphing as Greek adjusted to Roman society; there's some indication that by the first century it had shifted to "I wear long hair", which would be a step towards the hairdo idea. I'm going to search further. Unfortunately the online lexicons tend to simple answers, and the two I know that go into depth don't consider the word worth an entry!

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

I suspect that very few people here are registered members of jstor. I'm not, so if you wish to provide any 'evidence' from this source you will either need to post snapshots of the relevant pages, or copy/paste text from the relevant pages.

I'm pretty fortunate that my college gives alums JSTOR access

I skimmed through it. The main point of the article was about various 1st to 3rd century goddess cults from Greece and India and the male priests either practicing castration, transvestism, or temple prostitution with men. About the only reference to Christianity was this:

As you can see footnote #40 references mainly feminist studies so I'm not sure how applicable they are.

What I am thinking of here are the handful of women who entered men's monasteries and are now recognized as saints, such as St. Theodora of Alexandria. As for men, I doubt that St. Anthony had a barber in the desert so he might have had long hair but hardly fashionable.

I've seen this t-shirt with the beard ruler on the front.

 

[prodromos]

I skimmed through it. The main point of the article was about various 1st to 3rd century goddess cults from Greece and India and the male priests either practicing castration, transvestism, or temple prostitution with men.

I don't suppose the article had any archaeological evidence of images of pagan priests that icons of Christ are 'supposedly' based on? There are a number of ancient portraits which have survived intact until today, but pagan priests don't appear to be the subject for any that I know of.

I've seen this t-shirt with the beard ruler on the front.

Dang! I thought I had a pretty decent beard but I think it would barely register as "cave manly" on that scale, assuming the scale covers the whole t-shirt

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

I don't suppose the article had any archaeological evidence of images of pagan priests that icons of Christ are 'supposedly' based on? There are a number of ancient portraits which have survived intact until today, but pagan priests don't appear to be the subject for any that I know of.

Dang! I thought I had a pretty decent beard but I think it would barely register as "cave manly" on that scale, assuming the scale covers the whole t-shirt

The article's focus was on Greek, Indian and Sumerian cults. It didnt even seem that these cults had large followings.

As you would know, we have very few examples of iconography that survived the iconoclast period. For example, Christ Sinai was fortunately preserved because St. Catherine's was already under Muslim rule and they left the monastery alone.

Here's an alternate beard t-shirt. My wife hasnt let me grow a beard beyond what the model has.

 

[GenemZ]

For some here this should not be new news...

Pagan "holy men" in their temples were what the long haired effeminate depictions of Jesus originated from. Satan's mockery.

 

[ViaCrucis]

For some here this should not be new news...

Pagan "holy men" in their temples were what the long haired effeminate depictions of Jesus originated from. Satan's mockery.

Calling long hair "effiminate" demonstrates nothing but bias on your part.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[prodromos]

Calling long hair "effiminate" demonstrates nothing but bias on your part.

Now if you style it and plait it with ribbons and bows...

 

[GenemZ]

Calling long hair "effiminate" demonstrates nothing but bias on your part.

-CryptoLutheran

Not what I was 'exactly' getting at. Some very barbaric men with long hair appear far from being effeminate.

As far as believers go? Long hair on a man represents being out of order with God's desire for that man.

"Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him." 1 Cor 11:14


It just so happens that the long haired Jesus we see often depicted in many pictures is 'soft' and unmanly.
Far from what God desires of a man to be.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Not what I was 'exactly' getting at. Some very barbaric men with long hair appear far from being effeminate.

As far as believers go? Long hair on a man represents being out of order with God's desire for that man.

"Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him." 1 Cor 11:14


It just so happens that the long haired Jesus we see often depicted in many pictures is 'soft' and unmanly.
Far from what God desires of a man to be.

Or, here's a thought, you could change what you think "manliness" is.

I don't have a lot of patience for the whole "manly" thing, I think it's stupid. I don't need "manliness", I need godliness. And I think trying to misquote St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 11:14 to try and prop up superficial ideas of masculinity to be thoroughly contrary to Christianity.

You may as well say that women can't wear trousers.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[prodromos]

It just so happens that the long haired Jesus we see often depicted in many pictures is 'soft' and unmanly.
Far from what God desires of a man to be.

Not in the 'pictures' used in the Orthodox Church.

 

[GenemZ]

Or, here's a thought, you could change what you think "manliness" is.

I don't have a lot of patience for the whole "manly" thing, I think it's stupid. I don't need "manliness", I need godliness. And I think trying to misquote St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 11:14 to try and prop up superficial ideas of masculinity to be thoroughly contrary to Christianity.

You may as well say that women can't wear trousers.

-CryptoLutheran

Not a legalist.

Nor, am I going to change/deny what the Word declares because it bothers someone whom their bias finds it offensive.

When I was younger (I am now 73) I had long hair when I was a musician in a blues - heavy rock band. But, not long hair to the shoulders like the images of Jesus gets portrayed too often.

Keep in mind. Jews in Jesus day had a "bias." With one exception. When it was a man being under a Nazarite vow who could not cut his hair until the vow was completed. Then to cut it off and have it burned in ritual.

Jews in Jesus day did not have long hair like the converted pagans have handed down to us to believe Jesus looked like one of their past holy men. .

Jesus looked like a Jew. He should be depicted as one.

 

[GenemZ]

Not in the 'pictures' used in the Orthodox Church.

I am talking about these kinds that permeate almost everywhere these days.

 

[prodromos]

I am talking about these kinds that permeate almost everywhere these days.

Ah, the benevolent rockstar Jesus! That only dates from 1940. What pagan priest image do you claim this was based on? It is far more likely that it was inspired by one of Raphael's paintings, not that I am a fan of any of the Renaissance depictions of Christ.

 

[GenemZ]

Ah, the benevolent rockstar Jesus! That only dates from 1940. What pagan priest image do you claim this was based on? It is far more likely that it was inspired by one of Raphael's paintings, not that I am a fan of any of the Renaissance depictions of Christ.

How come you appear to know so much? And, do not already know the answer?


"Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair it is a disgrace to him." 1 Cor 11:14

Why do you keep wishing to make me look wrong for believing that verse?

.......

 

[prodromos]

How come you appear to know so much? And, do not already know the answer?


"Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair it is a disgrace to him." 1 Cor 11:14

Why do you keep wishing to make me look wrong for believing that verse?

.......

Firstly, "long hair" is very subjective. In one culture, hair down to the shoulders is not considered long while in another it would be very long. Your interpretation of that verse reflects your own cultural bias. As I've already pointed out, those who had taken a Nazerine vow not to cut their hair were not considered a disgrace, nor was Samson who only had his hair cut once for his demise.
Secondly, the word "κομα" means more than simply long hair but also refers to styled or ornamental hair. It refers to womanly styling of the hair, not simply the length.

You have made some specific claims regarding the source for the images of Jesus you so dislike, and all I have asked is for you to provide evidence of those claims. Thus far you have not provided any and it seems apparent that you have nothing to offer.

 

[prodromos]

Jews in Jesus day did not have long hair like the converted pagans have handed down to us to believe Jesus looked like one of their past holy men.

The Greeks and the Romans had relatively short hair, so I'm not sure which converted pagans you are referring to

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

Id like to see you make fun of this deeply Christian man as effeminate who spent 12 years on the Steelers and is now in the football Hall of Fame, Troy Polamalu.

Even today, Orthodox clergy tend to grow out their beards and hair, at least outside of the US. St. Paisios of Athos who passed in 1994.