Are Denominations Wrong?

[Kiterius]

Granted! However, the short synopsis I gave is enough to open a conversation, to begin a dialog. It is not a full Biblical description of all that God did from the beginning of Time, nor did I intend it to be.

Okay, but the Gospel of the Kingdom includes the full scope of the Kingdom, not just the extremely vital portion that you shared.

 

[DeaconDean]

Some are, and I agree with the poster that said they don't think denominations are Gods will.

I wish we were all just Christians.

Was it God's will in the NT era for Gentile Christians, to submit to some requirements of the "Law" as was required of the Jewish Christians?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Was it God's will in the NT era for Gentile Christians, to submit to some requirements of the "Law" as was required of the Jewish Christians?

God Bless

Educate me.

 

[DeaconDean]

Educate me.

Read Acts 15 and the results of the first Apostolic Council. (AD 47)

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Read Acts 15 and the results of the first Apostolic Council. (AD 47)

God Bless

Till all are one.

Not saying this is the case, but since some tend to read into scripture instead of out of it, I'd prefer you tell me here why denominations are God's will. Using scripture in your explanation is fine.

 

[KimT]

I think all Christians are disciples of Christ and Christ is the head of our church. I don't think the intent of the early church was to have denominations. That is all our doing. I don't get wrapped up in the legalism of denominations.....and they all have their rules and specific interpretations. I try to follow the teachings and examples of Christ and trust the Holy Spirit to guide me with the Lord's grace and mercy renewed each day.

 

[DeaconDean]

Not saying this is the case, but since some tend to read into scripture instead of out of it, I'd prefer you tell me here why denominations are God's will. Using scripture in your explanation is fine.

As a "Christian", either in the First Century or the 21st Century, are you supposed to "submit" to circumcision?

That was the claim by the Jewish Community towards Gentile Christians in the 1st Century.

"That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses." -Acts 15:5 (KJV)

Members of the Jewish Christian community not only wanted Gentile Christians to submit to circumcision, but to also submit to the Torah.

Both Peter and James were quick to answer saying:

"Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they...Men and brethren, hearken unto me: Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood...Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:" -Acts 15:7-11; 13-20; 24 (KJV)

I'd prefer you tell me here why denominations are God's will.

I have never said or claimed that denominations were "God's will", only that they are not wrong.

Just from scripture alone, we see that there were one group, namely Jewish Christians, who believed at least some of the Torah was still valid and therefore Gentile Christians were subject to it, and one group, namely Gentile Christians, who were only subject to perhaps 3 items from the Torah.

Clearly two different groups, subject to 2 different things.

A "denomination" of Jewish Christians, and a "denomination" of Gentile Christians.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I have never said or claimed that denominations were "God's will", only that they are not wrong.

When you posted in disagreement with my post, as it were, with no other details on exactly what you were disagreeing with, it led me to believe otherwise.

Glad we got that cleared up.

As far as Denominations being wrong, trying to sort out a definite answer to that can go so many different ways, I won't even attempt it except to say, maybe it's a lessor of a few evils.

 

[DeaconDean]

When you posted in disagreement with my post, as it were, with no other details on exactly what you were disagreeing with, it led me to believe otherwise.

Glad we got that cleared up.

As far as Denominations being wrong, trying to sort out a definite answer to that can go so many different ways, I won't even attempt it except to say, maybe it's a lessor of a few evils.

Let me put it another way, and in doing so, I stipulate that everybody is entitled to worship as their conscious dictates. I do not believe that the "Catholic" church is the "universal" church. During the early years that is exactly how it went.

There also was the doctrine that "There is no salvation outside the Catholic church". While it can be argued that it didn't necessarily mean the "RCC", it has always been taken that way.

I do not believe that without baptism, you can't be saved. I do not believe that water, baptism, washes away sin. Yet I know a few "denominations" that teach and believe that.

If it wasn't for "denominations", you too would be forced to believe that.

Are denominations God's will? NO!

Are denominations wrong? NO!

I'll say this, I'm not a Baptist because I believe they got it "right".

I'm a Baptist because I because I believe they teach closer to scriptures than others.

Like I said, I can make an argument that there were at least 2 "denominations" in the 1st Century, one comprised of Jewish Christians, and one comprised of Gentile Christians.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Let me put it another way, and in doing so, I stipulate that everybody is entitled to worship as their conscious dictates. I do not believe that the "Catholic" church is the "universal" church. During the early years that is exactly how it went.

There also was the doctrine that "There is no salvation outside the Catholic church". While it can be argued that it didn't necessarily mean the "RCC", it has always been taken that way.

I do not believe that without baptism, you can't be saved. I do not believe that water, baptism, washes away sin. Yet I know a few "denominations" that teach and believe that.

If it wasn't for "denominations", you too would be forced to believe that.

Are denominations God's will? NO!

Are denominations wrong? NO!

I'll say this, I'm not a Baptist because I believe they got it "right".

I'm a Baptist because I because I believe they teach closer to scriptures than others.

Like I said, I can make an argument that there were at least 2 "denominations" in the 1st Century, one comprised of Jewish Christians, and one comprised of Gentile Christians.

God Bless

Till all are one.

None of what you say, goes against it being a lessor evil...meaning, beats being forced into a church that believes differently from you. So, what you say, works for me.


"Christian" should be a denomination.

 

[DeaconDean]

"Christian" should be a denomination.

That would be great, but even I disagree with that.

In this world, there are basically two groups, saved and unsaved, Jew and Gentile.

The problem with what you said goes back what happed almost 10 years ago. I don't know if you were here or remember the 7/7/7 incident.

Rules prohibit naming names, but there was a person here who thought that everybody here was "entitled" to call themselves "Christian".

Problem: There are two groups that come to mind right off the bat that do not qualify. But if they claimed to be "Christian" we could not challenge it.

How would you propose to set the standard of what exactly defines a "Christian"? What do you use as the "standard"? Scriptures? There are groups that believe the scriptures are of a secondary nature. There are groups that believe the bible, but it is in no way the "Word of God". DO you use the Nicene Creed just as this forum does? Problem is, as written, I have problems with it because I'm a Baptist.

Oh well, I've preached enough.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Kenny'sID]

How would you propose to set the standard of what exactly defines a "Christian"?

Let God decide.

 

[DeaconDean]

Let God decide.

Ok, who's gonna speak for God?

I know the Holy Spirit does, but what the Holy Spirit guides you to, He may not lead me to.

The perfect example would to ask 10 people what a verse means. I almost bet that you would get 10 different answers. One could say the Holy Spirit told me this, another could make the same claim.

Who is right?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Wolf_Says]

Are denominations contrary to the will of God and the Scriptures?

Instead of Baptists, Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Presbyterians, etc, why can't we be known just as "Christians" and eschew any name that isn't biblical (the Church is referred to as the churches of Christ, church of God, the Way, etc.)

I'm using "denomination" loosely here to refer to any body of churches with an organized structure, set of beliefs, and identified by a name other than just "Christian."

Paul taught that we should not follow any man other than Jesus, as He is the one who died for us.

Martin Luther himself didn't want people who agreed with his theological perspectives to be called "Lutherans" and said he was not the one who was crucified.

I'm not saying it is wrong or sinful to attend a church affiliating with a denomination, just denominational loyalty and saying "I'm a Baptist/Methodist/Catholic/etc."instead of just a Christian.

Is it wrong to declare loyalty to a particular denomination?

So I am going to skip everything else said and just respond to your OP @FaithfulPilgrim

Unfortunately denominations are always going to be a thing, for a number of reasons but it mostly boils down to history and human beings.

When Jesus started His church in Matthew 16:18-19, there was 1 Church. Soon after however, there started to become heretical beliefs that popped up and were excommunicated from the Church and splintered off into their own groups.

The big one that I am currently studying is Nestorianism, which split from the Church in or around 431, and formed their own path. Most notable of this belief is the Church of the East.

Then after the 4th Ecumenical Council in 451 AD, the Oriental Orthodox split from the Church due to, what many scholars currently believe, merely verbal disagreements but not really theological disagreements.

Once again, now called the Great Schism, in 1054 the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church officially split.

Then we get to the Protestant Reformation, which has caused what has happened today.

Now that the history has gotten out of the way, denominations have become such a large thing primarily due to how protestanism currently is, with the 5 solas, and the primary one causing this is the sola scriptura.

The issue that SS brings is that it removes all authority in regards to the interpretation of scripture, and let's be honest; scripture can be hard to read at times. The language and style of speech and writing are completely different now from what they were back then, and alot of stuff from the original languages doesn't translate very nicely into english.

because scripture is difficult to read, and even more-so to understand, everybody has their own idea in what it says. This has caused the seemingly endless splits and new denominations popping up due to people interpreting scripture differently than the rest of their congregation.

Yes, we are all Christians, but that is hardly scratching the surface. Are denominations wrong? Possibly, as Jesus only started 1 Church, but it is due to human ego and error that these denominations have all popped up.

And frankly, just by looking at this forum, I don't see them going away any time soon.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Are denominations contrary to the will of God and the Scriptures?

Instead of Baptists, Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Presbyterians, etc, why can't we be known just as "Christians" and eschew any name that isn't biblical (the Church is referred to as the churches of Christ, church of God, the Way, etc.)

I'm using "denomination" loosely here to refer to any body of churches with an organized structure, set of beliefs, and identified by a name other than just "Christian."

Paul taught that we should not follow any man other than Jesus, as He is the one who died for us.

Martin Luther himself didn't want people who agreed with his theological perspectives to be called "Lutherans" and said he was not the one who was crucified.

I'm not saying it is wrong or sinful to attend a church affiliating with a denomination, just denominational loyalty and saying "I'm a Baptist/Methodist/Catholic/etc."instead of just a Christian.

Is it wrong to declare loyalty to a particular denomination?

The characteristic of human nature is that people express themselves in different ways and have difficult cultural values and attitudes. There is nothing wrong with that. The standard of Christian faith through is the New Testament. That takes priority over the beliefs and articles of faith of any denomination. The purpose of denominations is that Christians can fellowship with other like-minded believers. But every believer must have their own personal faith in Christ and fellowship with God regardless of their denominational loyalty. Christ must come first, and the New Testament must take precedence over any "book of order" or constitution. Where the leaders of a denominational church accept that, then there is more good than harm in belonging to that church and seeking to do with will of God in it. But when a denomination requires its members to comply with teachings, orders, doctrines, authorities, that are not consistent with the New Testament, we have the right to oppose it and, if necessary, leave it and find another church down the road that will honour the New Testament as the standard on which its doctrines and teachings are based. A denomination is like the internet, it can be for good or harm, depending on how it is used. A motor car can get you from A to B in style and comfort, but it can also be used as a lethal weapon in the hands of a drunk or irresponsible driver.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Excuse my naïve ignorance. Unfamiliar with acronymns such as YHWH.
You mean Jesus told us to divide family, brother versus brother in the name of Christianity?

No, He didn't tell us to do the dividing. He said that families will be divided as the result of Christian faith, but this is something that is done TO Christians, and not what Christians do.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Denominations were written against.

I don't know where that scripture is off hand, and I'd have to search for it.

It conveys a sort of disbelief that people have separated themselves.

That being said, in the time to come when the Gospel of the Kingdom starts being preached, I would stress, really do not worry about denominations. They may sooner be dissolved, even as Muslims turn from their faith and enter into Christianity, and there would be a lack of room for considering bits and pieces, when people want the real deal.

There is no scripture that supports denominations being wrong. The disciples of Jesus came to Him and said that there was another group casting out demons and He should stop them. Jesus said that He wouldn't, because if they were not against Him, they are for Him. Denominations are what you make of them. They are a fact of life in the Christian Church. Paul spoke against factionalism to the Corinthians, and I guess there is some of that in all denominations. But denominations are just a label, and if a believer see it as just that and does not view their denomination as the "true" church (which is the factionalism that Paul condemned), and is able to freely fellowship with believers from other denominations, then there is no conflict. I have fellowshiped in several denominations in my 50 years of Christian life. I guess I can label myself as a Anglobaptipentepresycharismanindepento believer. (and that's not speaking in tongues either! Hahahahaha!).

 

[Anguspure]

Are denominations contrary to the will of God and the Scriptures?

Instead of Baptists, Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Presbyterians, etc, why can't we be known just as "Christians" and eschew any name that isn't biblical (the Church is referred to as the churches of Christ, church of God, the Way, etc.)

I'm using "denomination" loosely here to refer to any body of churches with an organized structure, set of beliefs, and identified by a name other than just "Christian."

Paul taught that we should not follow any man other than Jesus, as He is the one who died for us.

Martin Luther himself didn't want people who agreed with his theological perspectives to be called "Lutherans" and said he was not the one who was crucified.

I'm not saying it is wrong or sinful to attend a church affiliating with a denomination, just denominational loyalty and saying "I'm a Baptist/Methodist/Catholic/etc."instead of just a Christian.

Is it wrong to declare loyalty to a particular denomination?

I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephasb ”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. (1 Corinthians 1)

So who are the Catholics, or the Orthodox, or the Baptists? None of them where crucified for us and I am baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Anguspure]

There is no scripture that supports denominations being wrong. The disciples of Jesus came to Him and said that there was another group casting out demons and He should stop them. Jesus said that He wouldn't, because if they were not against Him, they are for Him. Denominations are what you make of them. They are a fact of life in the Christian Church. Paul spoke against factionalism to the Corinthians, and I guess there is some of that in all denominations. But denominations are just a label, and if a believer see it as just that and does not view their denomination as the "true" church (which is the factionalism that Paul condemned), and is able to freely fellowship with believers from other denominations, then there is no conflict. I have fellowshiped in several denominations in my 50 years of Christian life. I guess I can label myself as a Anglobaptipentepresycharismanindepento believer. (and that's not speaking in tongues either! Hahahahaha!).

Interesting perspective, and it puts me in mind of what Paul wrote:
It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. The latter do so out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. (Philippians 1)

 

[yogosans14]

The jews back in Jesus day had denotations, or sects. Jesus rebuked them because there self righteousness and hypocrisy, but not for having little doctrinal disagreements. I personally believe that all denotations should strive to work together side by side regardless of our differences so we can all be united in the spreading of the Gospel and helping others. The mainstream protestant churches have minor differences between them, I don't think denomations are that big of a deal. I do however think its a problem when sects like SDA, Mormonism, and JWs call themselves the only true true and everyone else is damned. I think if a denomination rejects a fundamental doctrine of the faith (Trinity, bodily resurrection of Jesus, Jesus deity etc) They are not Christian at that point but a cult with Christian lingo.