Charlesinflorida said:
Charles i would debate you on this. Romans 14:6 One man estemeth one day above another:another esteemeth every day alike..
charles the apostles were jewish. We are gentiles...
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Charles i would debate you on this. Romans 14:6 One man estemeth one day above another:another esteemeth every day alike..
charles the apostles were jewish. We are gentiles...
Charlesinflorida
Well-Known Member
A few Tidbits from
constantine:
Constantine: We desire to have nothing in common with this so hated
people, for the Redeemer has marked out another path for us. To this
we will keep,and be free from disgraceful association with this people.
...The Apostalic Canons, [4th cent.]: If a clergyman enter into a
synagogue of Jews or heretics, [i.e.,Nazarenes/Messianic Jews] to pray,
let him be excommunicated. [Cannon 64]. If any bishop, presbyter or
deacon, or any one of the list of clergy, keeps fast of festival with
the Jews, or receives from them any gift of their feasts, as unleavened
bread, or any such things, let him be deposed. If he be a layman, let
him be excommunicated.
Why do Christians worship on Sunday? Not because of the resurrection. That was a defence position that was added much later. Jesus rose on Sunday because the feast of first fruits was on Sunday and his resurection is a fulfillment of that feast day Here is why Christians observe Sunday rather than the Lords Sabbath.
Some Proffessions of Faith Required of Jewish Converts.[Quoted from
Prkes, The Conflict of the Church and the Synagogue,pp.397-40 :
From the Church of Constantinople [Assemani, Cod.Lit.,I,p.105]...As
a preliminary to his acceptance as a catechumen, a Jew "Must confess
and denounce verbally, the whole of Hebrew people, forthwith declare
that with a whole heart and sincere faith he desires to be received
among the Christians. Then he must renounce openly in the church all
Jewish superstition, the priest saying, and he, or his sponsor if he is
a child, replying in these words:
I renounce all customs, rites, leagalisms, unleavened breads and
sacrifice of lambs of the Hebrew, and all the other feasts of the
Hebrew, sacrifices, prayers, aspersions, purifications,sanctifications,
and propitations, and fasts and new moons, and Sabbaths, and
superstitions, and hymns and chants and observances and synagogues, and
the food and drink of the Hebrew; in one word, I renounce absolutely
everything Jewish, every law, rite and custom,...But if it be with
deceit and hypocrisy, and not with a sincere and perfect faith and a
genuine love of Christ, but with pretence to be a Christian that I
come, and if afterwards I shall wish to deny and return to Jewish
superstition, or shall be found eating with Jews, or feasting with
them, or secretly conversing with them and condemning the Christian
religion instead of openly confuting them and condemning their vain
faith, then let the trembling of Cain and the leprosy of Gehazi cleave
to me, as well as the anathema in the world to come, and may my soul be
set down with Satan and the devils."
Furthermore, I accept all customs, rites, legalisms and feasts of the Romans, sacrifices, prayers, purifications with water, sanctifications by Pontius Maximus, propitiations and feasts, the New Sabbath The Sol Dei [Day of the Sun], all new chants and observances, all foods and drinks of the Romans in the New Roman Religion.
Even so aithful believers continued to meet in the Synagogues and to take part in the Jewish festivals into the later 4th century. We know this for two reasons. one, the church issued order for all who were doing so to stop. (which means that they must have been) and second the Jews added a line to the daily prayers calling for a curse against Christ followers, an oath that no hidden christian would verbalize.
This forced them into the open.
Church fathers:
Origen:
Origen, wrote: "We may thus assert in utter confidence that the Jews will not return to their earlier situation, for they have committed the most abominable of crimes, in forming the conspiracy against the Savior of the human race ... Hence the city where Jesus suffered was necessarily destroyed, the Jewish nation was driven from its country, and another people [meaning the church] was called by God to the blessed election."
Eusebius:
Eusebius, Bishop of Caesaria, claimed that Jews in every community crucified a Christian at their Purim festival as a rejection of Jesus. He used the charge of ritual murder made by the pagans Democritus and Apion, which the Romans had first made against the early Christians. Eusebius made a distinction between Hebrews who were good men in the Old Testament and Jews whom he characterized as evil.
Chrysostom and Ambrose
Emperor Theodosius protected the Jews from the church's persecutions of heretics. Chrysostom and Ambrose of Milan - both sainted - wanted to include Jews in this persecution. Chrysostom: "The Jews are the most worthless of all men... They are perfidious murderers of Christ. They worship the devil, their religion is a sickness..." Ambrose reprimanded the emperor for rebuilding a synagogue and offered to burn it down himself. St. Gregory of Nyssa characterized Jews as assassins of the prophets, companions of the devil, a race of vipers, a sanhedrin of demons, enemies of all that is beautiful, hogs and goats in their lewd grossness."
Cyril:
St. Cyril, the Bishop of Alexandria, incited a mob against the Jews and had them expelled. Bishop Severus burned a synagogue and incited people to attack and harass Jews in the streets. Many Jews converted to Christianity out of fear.
9b]Jerome:[/b]
St. Jerome, who had studied with Jewish scholars in Palestine and translated the Bible into Latin (the Vulgate), wrote about the synagogue: "If you call it a brothel, a den of vice, the Devil's refuge, Satan's fortress, a place to deprave the soul, an abyss of every conceivable disaster or whatever you will, you are still saying less than it deserves."
Augustine:
St. Augustine, Bishop of Hippo: "The true image of the Hebrew is Judas Iscariot, who sells the Lord for silver. The Jew can never understand the Scriptures and forever will bear the guilt for the death of Jesus."
constantine:
Constantine: We desire to have nothing in common with this so hated
people, for the Redeemer has marked out another path for us. To this
we will keep,and be free from disgraceful association with this people.
...The Apostalic Canons, [4th cent.]: If a clergyman enter into a
synagogue of Jews or heretics, [i.e.,Nazarenes/Messianic Jews] to pray,
let him be excommunicated. [Cannon 64]. If any bishop, presbyter or
deacon, or any one of the list of clergy, keeps fast of festival with
the Jews, or receives from them any gift of their feasts, as unleavened
bread, or any such things, let him be deposed. If he be a layman, let
him be excommunicated.
Why do Christians worship on Sunday? Not because of the resurrection. That was a defence position that was added much later. Jesus rose on Sunday because the feast of first fruits was on Sunday and his resurection is a fulfillment of that feast day Here is why Christians observe Sunday rather than the Lords Sabbath.
Some Proffessions of Faith Required of Jewish Converts.[Quoted from
Prkes, The Conflict of the Church and the Synagogue,pp.397-40 :
From the Church of Constantinople [Assemani, Cod.Lit.,I,p.105]...As
a preliminary to his acceptance as a catechumen, a Jew "Must confess
and denounce verbally, the whole of Hebrew people, forthwith declare
that with a whole heart and sincere faith he desires to be received
among the Christians. Then he must renounce openly in the church all
Jewish superstition, the priest saying, and he, or his sponsor if he is
a child, replying in these words:
I renounce all customs, rites, leagalisms, unleavened breads and
sacrifice of lambs of the Hebrew, and all the other feasts of the
Hebrew, sacrifices, prayers, aspersions, purifications,sanctifications,
and propitations, and fasts and new moons, and Sabbaths, and
superstitions, and hymns and chants and observances and synagogues, and
the food and drink of the Hebrew; in one word, I renounce absolutely
everything Jewish, every law, rite and custom,...But if it be with
deceit and hypocrisy, and not with a sincere and perfect faith and a
genuine love of Christ, but with pretence to be a Christian that I
come, and if afterwards I shall wish to deny and return to Jewish
superstition, or shall be found eating with Jews, or feasting with
them, or secretly conversing with them and condemning the Christian
religion instead of openly confuting them and condemning their vain
faith, then let the trembling of Cain and the leprosy of Gehazi cleave
to me, as well as the anathema in the world to come, and may my soul be
set down with Satan and the devils."
Furthermore, I accept all customs, rites, legalisms and feasts of the Romans, sacrifices, prayers, purifications with water, sanctifications by Pontius Maximus, propitiations and feasts, the New Sabbath The Sol Dei [Day of the Sun], all new chants and observances, all foods and drinks of the Romans in the New Roman Religion.
Even so aithful believers continued to meet in the Synagogues and to take part in the Jewish festivals into the later 4th century. We know this for two reasons. one, the church issued order for all who were doing so to stop. (which means that they must have been) and second the Jews added a line to the daily prayers calling for a curse against Christ followers, an oath that no hidden christian would verbalize.
This forced them into the open.
Church fathers:
Origen:
Origen, wrote: "We may thus assert in utter confidence that the Jews will not return to their earlier situation, for they have committed the most abominable of crimes, in forming the conspiracy against the Savior of the human race ... Hence the city where Jesus suffered was necessarily destroyed, the Jewish nation was driven from its country, and another people [meaning the church] was called by God to the blessed election."
Eusebius:
Eusebius, Bishop of Caesaria, claimed that Jews in every community crucified a Christian at their Purim festival as a rejection of Jesus. He used the charge of ritual murder made by the pagans Democritus and Apion, which the Romans had first made against the early Christians. Eusebius made a distinction between Hebrews who were good men in the Old Testament and Jews whom he characterized as evil.
Chrysostom and Ambrose
Emperor Theodosius protected the Jews from the church's persecutions of heretics. Chrysostom and Ambrose of Milan - both sainted - wanted to include Jews in this persecution. Chrysostom: "The Jews are the most worthless of all men... They are perfidious murderers of Christ. They worship the devil, their religion is a sickness..." Ambrose reprimanded the emperor for rebuilding a synagogue and offered to burn it down himself. St. Gregory of Nyssa characterized Jews as assassins of the prophets, companions of the devil, a race of vipers, a sanhedrin of demons, enemies of all that is beautiful, hogs and goats in their lewd grossness."
Cyril:
St. Cyril, the Bishop of Alexandria, incited a mob against the Jews and had them expelled. Bishop Severus burned a synagogue and incited people to attack and harass Jews in the streets. Many Jews converted to Christianity out of fear.
9b]Jerome:[/b]
St. Jerome, who had studied with Jewish scholars in Palestine and translated the Bible into Latin (the Vulgate), wrote about the synagogue: "If you call it a brothel, a den of vice, the Devil's refuge, Satan's fortress, a place to deprave the soul, an abyss of every conceivable disaster or whatever you will, you are still saying less than it deserves."
Augustine:
St. Augustine, Bishop of Hippo: "The true image of the Hebrew is Judas Iscariot, who sells the Lord for silver. The Jew can never understand the Scriptures and forever will bear the guilt for the death of Jesus."
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Uhm Charles please if we will debate issues lets look at what THE WORD itself says onthe subject.
I corinthians 16;2.. upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store...
I corinthians 16;2.. upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store...
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Trish1947
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All those men will have to bear their own judgements will they not? But what do they have to do with today? Are we to hate Catholics now in this day, because of the inquisition? It's passed. If I am going to change my perception of Christ and what to believe, and base it on past history, I make no progess in my faith at all. God's word is the same yesterday, today, and forever..Thats where I get my instruction, not from whats happened in the past.
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Charlesinflorida
Well-Known Member
flyfishing said:
Sorry flyfishing,
I posted that bit (or was writing it) when you posted this on Ro 14. I didn't mean that to be an answer to that debate question.
I must decline an open debate as I have been warned not to debate here. However I can answer your question stating my opinion.
Romans is a letter to a group of believers that is mixed, part Jew, part Gentile and some unsaved Jews as well. They all share the synagogue in Rome. In the most general sense he is concerned about new and imature Gentile believers who are taking too much liberty do to their understanding of grace or due to immaturity, and are becoming a stumling block to the Jews who are offended by some of their actions.
Esteeming one day above another; also as we read on, which foods are clean and which are not. This is not really a Kosher issue, because Paul is speaking of food, and food can only be Kosher or it is not food. But here was otherwise Kosher food that might be considered unclean beause of where it was bought,(Pagan temple?) how it was killed, how it was prepared ect. These extra observances would be natural for the Jew but not appearant to the new Gentile converts. Paul wants the brothers to be considerate of one another as they all grow.
The days in question are similar because there are other days that the Jews esteem, such as New moon, special sabbaths things that were added and fall outside of Torah. More examples, Purim, Channacha, Tisha B'AV, Tu B' Av, feast of the wood cutting, feast of the brides dance. The Jews held these days in esteem and new converts might not even be aware of them, since they are not biblical, but are Jewish traditons.
Since obstaining from meat is also mentioned, there is a possibility that it is not Jewish days at all but some Roman pagan days that the new converts are compelled to continue observing, as vegitariaism is an escetric practice and not a Jewish practice.
I think though that, since Paul contiued to observe the biblical Feast days and Sabbaths,(as shown in scripture) that the days in question are not the biblical feast days but are something else as I have given examples for.
CIF
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Charlesinflorida
Well-Known Member
Trish1947 said:
The point is, these men framed Christianity. And their religious practice is what the christian church does today. So you do get your instruction from them today. They are the ones who made the decision for you as to what you are to believe or accept as sound doctrine. What they gave the church is not scripturally sound. This should be a concern to every believer. God gave us what is for doctrine in the Tanahk. II Tim 3:16
Editing: flyfishing ...the verse at the bottom of your post did not get carried over to the Quote. Taking up a collection for the first day of the week. I think you are saying that this was an evidence of Sunday being the christian sabbath. However you might consider that the collection was designated for Sunday, because a Jew does not do business or handle financial affairs and money on Sabbath. There is historical evidence that the believers met on both days, and it may have happened this way; Sabbath is from sundown friday until sundown saturday evening. As it gets dark the new day begins (Sunday). Many Jews did and still do meet at the close of Sabbath for a special fellowship remaining into the early evening hours of Sunday. This would be an excellent time to collect these donations on the fist day of the week.
CIF
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Charlesinflorida said:
Charles it is the only proof we have of when to worship. It is the only time commanded in the nt... The corinthians were not as the acts church meeting day to day. Historical evidence is not biblical commands... And giving is worshipping. We are in the new covenant not the old, as God seperated the seventh day as a day of rest because he rested so the new covenant is seperated for the true nt believer because of the finished work of the cross when christ was raised..
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Charlesinflorida
Well-Known Member
FLyfishing,
I understand what you are saying. It is the standard church position. But as you can see the men who established these enterpretations of scripture hated the Jews and denied any connection to Judaism. There is another way of looking at this verse in Colosians. These were gentile believers who were falling under criticism by Jews for doing what the Torah comandmentd and what the Jews did without first converting to Judaism through circumcision. They were saying that one needed to become fully Jewish before you could be saved by the Jewish Messiah. And this is a biblical fact we see repeated in other passages concerning the party of the circumcision.
Taking up a collection is not worship it is Mitzvah, a righteous act or obligation. And this connection making this a commandment to whorship on Sunday is a long stretch. Paul says we are to use the Old testament to establish our doctrine. Not the new testament. There was no such thing as a new testament when Paul said,II Tim 3 [16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
Another factor is that nothing in the New covenant that is supposed as doctrine can violate what is given in the Old testament. This was even the standard used to judge whether or not a book was to be included in the NT canon, it had to agree with and not disagree with OT. So how can you say that the instructions to collect money for a Sunday collection changes the Sabbath which existed from the beginning and which God mentions literally hundreds of times. And even beyond that, the church did not change from Sabbath to Sunday until 318 AD and then only in Rome. It was not until almost 100 years later that the Church resolved to Sunday due to Roman pressure.
Flyfisher, Sunday is not scriptural at all, not even for Gentiles. Even in NT scriptures we see the church including its Gentile members meeting in synagogues and doing so on Sabbath.
CIF
I understand what you are saying. It is the standard church position. But as you can see the men who established these enterpretations of scripture hated the Jews and denied any connection to Judaism. There is another way of looking at this verse in Colosians. These were gentile believers who were falling under criticism by Jews for doing what the Torah comandmentd and what the Jews did without first converting to Judaism through circumcision. They were saying that one needed to become fully Jewish before you could be saved by the Jewish Messiah. And this is a biblical fact we see repeated in other passages concerning the party of the circumcision.
Taking up a collection is not worship it is Mitzvah, a righteous act or obligation. And this connection making this a commandment to whorship on Sunday is a long stretch. Paul says we are to use the Old testament to establish our doctrine. Not the new testament. There was no such thing as a new testament when Paul said,II Tim 3 [16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
Another factor is that nothing in the New covenant that is supposed as doctrine can violate what is given in the Old testament. This was even the standard used to judge whether or not a book was to be included in the NT canon, it had to agree with and not disagree with OT. So how can you say that the instructions to collect money for a Sunday collection changes the Sabbath which existed from the beginning and which God mentions literally hundreds of times. And even beyond that, the church did not change from Sabbath to Sunday until 318 AD and then only in Rome. It was not until almost 100 years later that the Church resolved to Sunday due to Roman pressure.
Flyfisher, Sunday is not scriptural at all, not even for Gentiles. Even in NT scriptures we see the church including its Gentile members meeting in synagogues and doing so on Sabbath.
CIF
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Charlesinflorida
Well-Known Member
Lets build a doctrine for the believers using scripture.
Israel is the proto-type for all of Gods redeemed community so lets start there.
EX 31:12 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, [13] Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you. [14] Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. [15] Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. [16] Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. [17] It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
The Kingdom of God and His Messiah is not limited to Jews only, but encompasses the entire human race, of those who choose salvation.
Nu 15: [15] One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the LORD. [16] One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.
After messiah comes, Gentiles begin to be inluded even outside of the lands of Israel. So a council is held with the living apostles in Jerusalem to decide what Gentiles should do upon accepting Yeshua as their personal Messiah. There needs to be a starting point (a point of entry not a finished goal) for Gentiles because they have not gown up in the light of Torah from the time of their birth like Israel has.
Act 15:[19] Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: [20] But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. [21] For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Notice verse 21 it is important and usually ignored in the pulpits of modern churchmen. These Gentiles are to return to their own cities and to attend the local synagogue on SABBATH to study Torah (Moses) and learn righteousness.
Did the church meet in the synagogues then? Yes we see that in many places. And when do they meet to read scripture and worship in a synagogue? Sabbath. See James 2: [2] For if there come unto your synagogue a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
And here we see the result of believing God for salvationand being filled with the Holy spirit. Paul says in reference to these Gentiles:
RO 2[13] (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. [14] For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: [15] Which show the work of the law written in their hearts,
Because the spirit is in them, and has written the law (Torah) upon their hearts, they indeed do the things that the law (Torah) requires. And the Law (Torah) says
EX 20: [8] Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. [9] Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: [10] But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: [11] For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
CIF
Israel is the proto-type for all of Gods redeemed community so lets start there.
EX 31:12 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, [13] Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you. [14] Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. [15] Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. [16] Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. [17] It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
The Kingdom of God and His Messiah is not limited to Jews only, but encompasses the entire human race, of those who choose salvation.
Nu 15: [15] One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the LORD. [16] One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.
After messiah comes, Gentiles begin to be inluded even outside of the lands of Israel. So a council is held with the living apostles in Jerusalem to decide what Gentiles should do upon accepting Yeshua as their personal Messiah. There needs to be a starting point (a point of entry not a finished goal) for Gentiles because they have not gown up in the light of Torah from the time of their birth like Israel has.
Act 15:[19] Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: [20] But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. [21] For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Notice verse 21 it is important and usually ignored in the pulpits of modern churchmen. These Gentiles are to return to their own cities and to attend the local synagogue on SABBATH to study Torah (Moses) and learn righteousness.
Did the church meet in the synagogues then? Yes we see that in many places. And when do they meet to read scripture and worship in a synagogue? Sabbath. See James 2: [2] For if there come unto your synagogue a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
And here we see the result of believing God for salvationand being filled with the Holy spirit. Paul says in reference to these Gentiles:
RO 2[13] (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. [14] For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: [15] Which show the work of the law written in their hearts,
Because the spirit is in them, and has written the law (Torah) upon their hearts, they indeed do the things that the law (Torah) requires. And the Law (Torah) says
EX 20: [8] Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. [9] Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: [10] But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: [11] For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
CIF
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Charles i am a new covenant believer who takes gods word literally. All his word. If you choose to live under the old covenant then that is something you will have to answer for. I will let no man judge me with respect to day, or ceremonial laws...
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Charlesinflorida
Well-Known Member
flyfishing said:
I think maybe you are not only a New Covenant believer but seem to be a Marcionite in particular. Since the OT has no authority over you, do like Marcion and tear it out of you bible and burn it. It is only excess weight to carry around. You say you take ALL of his word literaly. But certainly you mean only the New testament and not ALL. Paul said ever so clearly [16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
It seems you do not believe Paul in this particular point. For your doctrine, reproof, correction, and instructions do not come from the scriptures Paul was using, and to which he was refering, but from Church traditions which are Antisimitic and antinomial.
CIF
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Charlesinflorida said:
Nothing could be further from the truth charles. The ot is read as often as the new and i believe all scripture is given by inspiration of God. The old testament ceremonial law was a shadow, i now live in the light of its fulness and as such as Gods word says in colossians 2:16-17 I will let no man judge me or beguile me of my reward which is christ in me the hope of glory..
Oh yes i also will be rewarded with heaven someday but as i surrender to him and trust fully in his grace then everyday is sweeter than the day before and the half has not yet been told.. 2cor11;3 i will not let my mind be corrupted but i will cling to a simple love of christ..
My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus blood and righteousness..
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Charlesinflorida
Well-Known Member
Then trust Him when He says to His followers:
18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.
18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.
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Charlesinflorida said:
Charles actually i am beginning to get a good mental picture of CHRISTS frustration towards the pharisees..
Its not my righteousness that gets me to heaven becaue i am trusting in the righteousness of the son of god, it has been imparted unto me by faith
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Charlesinflorida
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flyfishing said:Charles actually i am beginning to get a good mental picture of CHRISTS frustration towards the pharisees..
Its not my righteousness that gets me to heaven becaue i am trusting in the righteousness of the son of god, it has been imparted unto me by faith
But are you teaching others to break the least of these His commandments?
You know if you needed a larger print you might have told me before. I have to move back about four feet to read your posts.
CIF
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No charles i dont teach people to break commandments. I am done with this "discusson" .. re the large print was put for emphasis. I do have trouble reading the small sometimes..
You will never convert me and since you reject the new covenant, i shake the dust off my keyboard..
You will never convert me and since you reject the new covenant, i shake the dust off my keyboard..
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Perceivence
Defend.
You paint with a mighty broad brush, my friend.Charlesinflorida said:
Apparently, you're assuming that the Protestant Christians of today all follow the fundamental teachings of the Bible that Luther popularised only because Luther popularised them. That's a horribly wrong assumption.
We follow that teaching because it is the Bible's truth, not because Luther popularised it. Unless you're going to deny the truth of Salvation by Faith, you can't deny that Martin Luther knew what he was saying in that issue.
Obviously, his life and other teachings that were not in accordance with the Bible were disregarded. You don't hear Protestant Denominations preaching Anti-Semitism today.
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So, why then did Paul go the entire way and speak about us not juding others on the observation of New Moon celebrations and the like? Why didn't he just point out the difference that you did: "that a Gentile may observe the law without becoming circumcised and that doesn't make him any less of a Christian"?Charlesinflorida said:
So then Timothy and all the churches were wrong to take Paul's word so seriously? After all, it wasn't part of the Tanahk.
CIF
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Charlesinflorida
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The churches that took Pauls word seriously did well. Because they knew what Pauls words meant and that his teaching was true to that which was given already in Tanahk. It is the church today that ties to put a different spin on Pauls words and make his words mean something else entirely. If you studied Tanahk as much as you study I cor. you would see this. You must understand Paul in his Hebraic setting with his extensive Torah living as the foundation for what he is saying. This is true for all the new testament. If you do not have a foundation in Tanahk, much of what is written makes no sense or can be twisted into something else.
Does this change the Gospel, who Yeshua was and the method of salvation? No, not at all. But it severely impacts how we live as this special called out people of God.
CIF
Does this change the Gospel, who Yeshua was and the method of salvation? No, not at all. But it severely impacts how we live as this special called out people of God.
CIF
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