Are Catholics Saved?

The problem with Protestants and Catholics are that both can easily find scripture to defend their stances on things.

Take salvation...

Some of them have been taught....by Paul's Letters

"if you confess with your mouth, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved".

And on justification....

"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Point is....you have support, they have support.

We all recongnize who Jesus is, praise God, the rest is just details. Or that's my new opinion on the matter.

May God Bless you all.

tigersnare said:

We all recongnize who Jesus is, praise God, the rest is just details. Or that's my new opinion on the matter.

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You pretty much hit the nail on the head, partner. I started realizing this about a couple years ago...

tigersnare said:

May God Bless you all.

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...and you as well...

tigersnare said:

The problem with Protestants and Catholics are that both can easily find scripture to defend their stances on things.

Take salvation...

Some of them have been taught....by Paul's Letters

"if you confess with your mouth, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved".

And on justification....

"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Point is....you have support, they have support.

We all recongnize who Jesus is, praise God, the rest is just details. Or that's my new opinion on the matter.

May God Bless you all.

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They have no support, sorry...they have misunderstandings of Scripture. James and Paul are not contradictory, they were talking about different kinds of works....

See my current debate for more info please....

tigersnare said:

The problem with Protestants and Catholics are that both can easily find scripture to defend their stances on things.

Take salvation...

Some of them have been taught....by Paul's Letters

"if you confess with your mouth, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved".

And on justification....

"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Point is....you have support, they have support.

We all recongnize who Jesus is, praise God, the rest is just details. Or that's my new opinion on the matter.

May God Bless you all.

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But when you add in tradition and the magisterium all of a sudden the many varying Protestant interpretations seem to lose a lot of support. It boils down to you not having anything other than your word to say that is what the bible is teaching.

tigersnare said:

The problem with Protestants and Catholics are that both can easily find scripture to defend their stances on things.

* * *

We all recongnize who Jesus is, praise God, the rest is just details.

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With most Protestants I can come to a quick mutual agreement that we are to look to God, have faith, avoid sin, confess sin when it occurs, and always persevere in faith, hope and charity. With those, there isn't the need for me to dispute the finer points of justification, because we each recognize that our basic walk in faith is similar.

However, there is that certain segmant of Protestants who tend to begin the discussion by accusing me (and all other Catholics with me) of 'corrupting the gospel' and 'promoting salvation by works' (and sometimes less charitable thoughts than those). With those, brushing aside the discussion as "just details" is impossible. As Defense and Shelb have noted, those persons are wrong, and I'm not going to be shy about pointing out why.

Peace to you.

Defens0rFidei said:

They have no support, sorry...they have misunderstandings of Scripture.

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Funny thing is they would say the same about you....

It's totally unfruitful to argue about these things anymore. It's been going on for centuries and all it does is create more division in the body, which I am also very guilty of.

Shelb5 said:

But when you add in tradition and the magisterium all of a sudden the many varying Protestant interpretations seem to lose a lot of support. It boils down to you not having anything other than your word to say that is what the bible is teaching.

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Ok

Do you think either side will lose their salvation over a misinterpretation? We are men, and fallible by nature, nevertheless God does know our hearts.

Say you do works becuause you believe you need it for your salvation, and they do works becuase they belive they are supposed to becuase of the teachings in the bible(but not for salvation because they believe their faith in the grace of God saved them). Either way you both did works in the name of the Lord.

tigersnare said:

Ok

Do you think either side will lose their salvation over a misinterpretation? We are men, and fallible by nature, nevertheless God does know our hearts.

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If that misinterpretation causes them to make light of their mortal sins, as if they do not need to repent of them, maybe, but only God can be the judge, not me.

Say you do works becuause you believe you need it for your salvation,

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No, that is not correct.

and they do works becuase they belive they are supposed to becuase of the teachings in the bible(but not for salvation because they believe their faith in the grace of God saved them). Either way you both did works in the name of the Lord.

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We do works because we must have a living faith in order to reach heaven.

tigersnare said:

Say you do works becuause you believe you need it for your salvation,

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that is incorrect, the Council of Trent defined the requirements for salvation as follows:

These are all acts of disposition which are state of mind.
- Faith in God
- Detestation of Sin
- Love of God
- Intention to sin to more
- Purpose of recieving baptism
(Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Ott)

Now, along with misrepresenting Catholic teaching, are you telling us that you can be saved by faith, apart from love of God? or faith, with the intention to continue in sin? or faith, without detesting sin?

Even satan has faith.

Jesus is the way, truth, and life. No one gets to heaven accept through him. No baptism can save you, no prayer can save you, only our beautiful Jesus can save you

onetruth said:

Jesus is the way, truth, and life. No one gets to heaven accept through him. No baptism can save you, no prayer can save you, only our beautiful Jesus can save you

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"No baptism can save you"

Do you understand that baptism is the grace of our Lord’s death and resurrection poured out into our souls by God himself?

The bible does not say to just accept in your heart and you are saved by Jesus. The bible says that we are to be baptized into his death and resurrection and persevere until the end of our lives with out making a shipwreck of our faith and then we will be saved because the blood of Jesus redeemed us.

Peace be with you.

Haven't read the thread - sorry! Got the baby today.

Just a thought that popped in my empty head. If we are "saved" once we make an open, true acceptance of Jesus as our personal Lord and saviour, does that mean that our divine gift of free will ends at that point?

I mean, if you believe that once you make that choice, you are then saved regardless of what you do, doesn't it deny our ability to later choose. To later exercise our gift of free will?

Our free will does not go away once we accept Jesus. We must continue to choose Jesus by our faith, as shown through our loving obedience to Him (our works).

It is through our faith that we are justified. It is through our faith and works (exercising our free will) which gives us hope of salvation (eternal life).

God Bless,
P12

Amen Michelle.


One Truth- I highly reccommend Stephen Ray's Crossing the Tiber to you. He devoted an entire section to baptism in Scripture and its significance and regenerative nature. One problem I see in discussions of this topic is that baptism is often set up in opposition to faith, when in fact they are not opposed to one another at all. In Scripture we are told that many things bring us our salavtion. They include:

belief (Jn 3:16, Acts 16:31)
repentance (Acts 2:38, 2 Peter 3:9)
the Spirit (2 Cor5 3:6, Jn 3:5)
proclaiming the truth (Rom 10:9, Lk 12:8)
grace (Acts 15:11, Eph 2:8)
works (James 2:24, Rom 2:6)
Jesus' blood (Rom 5:9, Hebrews 9:22)
Jesus' Cross (Col 2:14, Eph 2:16)
Jesus' righteousness (Romans 5:17, 2 Peter 1:1)

and..

baptism (Jn 3:15, 1 Peter 3:21, Titus 3:5)

None of these things is the sole route to salvation, but they all come from Christ, leading us to the Truth that all salvation springs from our Lord, Jesus Christ.

In the event that my post is unclear, that list comes froms Ray's work. I do not however, have the book with my and can therefore not provide a proper academic citation.

In the event you are bothered by that, please PM me and I will attempt to find the book somewhere in my house.

BAchristian said:

Yeah see, that's just it.

It's amazing to me to hear people try to justify OSAS. They counter their claims by saying, "Well wait, you Catholics say yourself that you sin every day, so isn't that the pot calling the kettle black?"

What they won't admit to, in person, nor on these forums, is that the belief that once you're saved, always saved is nothing more than a good excuse for them to do whatever they want, and they don't have to necessarily do anything, nor try to get closer and closer to God. They're saved, and life is good. If they continue to sin, and they don't need to strive not to, then, well, that's just our imperfections coming out -- God knows our hearts.

However, the anti-OSAS crew knows that this battle is a continous battle against Satan. We must continously work on not sinning. And through God's grace, he will work with us on those things that are the major issues in our life.

Maybe it's cursing, or vulgarity, or whatever -- the Lord will work with you in your life and make you stronger. As you grow stronger in God, you sin less.

I can tell you right now that as I do the little things, like penance, and Hail Mary's, and holding that door open for a person who has their hands full of coffee at Peets, or wherever, that these are the things that have made me a stronger Christian. I'm drawing closer to God as I try to think that maybe I shouldn't cut that person off in front of me (patience) or maybe I should allow that person who do wants to cut me off, have my space anyway (graciousness)...

If I don't do those things, am I sinning? I think that if we KNOW to do good and we don't, then it's a direct disobedience towards God, which is a sin.

When we continously strive to get closer to Him, by identifying our faults, then we are making active strides in NOT sinning, and thus, we become closer to Him, we lead more peaceful lives, and Christ looks favorably upon us.

OSAS, on the other hand, breeds laziness. You don't need to strive to not sin, because, well, it's just too hard...and besides, I'm assured my salvation -- it's like welfare abusers. Why work when the government is sending you the chedda?

The reason why people will debate you until the cows come home is because they know in their hearts that the anti-OSAS crew is right. They are feeling convicted, and they don't like to hear that.

OSAS gives you this false hope and assurance that all is good and you're going to heaven.

The Bible says that we can't serve two masters.

Sorry for getting on a tangent...

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i would have to strongly disagree. once saved always saved is backed by scripture. a lot of protestants certainly do draw close to God while I know a lot of protestants and catholics that backslide.

Bayhawks83 said:

i havnet heard anything more ridiculous than this. once saved always saved is backed by scripture. protostants are the ones drawing close to God while catholics backslide. Cathalocism is just a tradition, NOT a religion.

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Can you some of that scripture stuff here so us Catholics can learn it?

True children of God are, according to the Scriptures, forever saved and eternally secure because:

They are born again of incorruptible seed which yields the fruit of everlasting life (l Peter 1:23).

They stand before God clothed in the imputed (credited) righteousness of Christ, and not in their own (2 Corinthians 5:21; Romans 5:19-21).

His sheep have been given eternal life—they shall never perish (John 10:28).

Their eternal lives are forever hid with Christ in God (Colossians 3:1-3).

They are already seated in the heavenlies in Christ (Ephesians 1:3; 2:6).

The penalty for all their sin has been forever settled through the perfect and finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 4:23-5:2; 5:6-9).

Loss of reward at the Judgment Seat of Christ is certain for the careless Christians, but not loss of salvation (l Corinthians 3:10-15).

God faithfully chastens all of His children, even to the point of taking home those who refuse their Heavenly Father's correction (Hebrews 12:6-11; 1 Corinthians 5:1-5; 11:28-32).

They have already been delivered from the wrath to come (1 Thessalonians 1:9,10; 5:8-10).

They are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30; Romans 8:23).

The Lord knoweth them that are His; false professors will be revealed as such at the White Throne Judgment (2 Timothy 2:19; Revelation 20 ~ 15; Matthew 7:21-23).

God is the one Who has begun the good work in the believer, and He has promised to perform it until the day of Jesus Christ; they are to "work out," not "work for "their salvation (Philippians 1:6; 2:12,13).

They are already living stones in the spiritual building of God of which Christ Himself is the Chief Cornerstone (l Peter 2:5; Ephesians 2:20-22).

They are members of the Body of Christ, each with a peculiar function and without each one, the Body would not be complete (l Corinthians 12:12-27).

They are kept by the power of God, through faith, not through the efforts or the works of the one who is saved. (l Peter 1:5).

Their incorruptible, everlasting inheritance is reserved for them by God (l Peter l:l-4).

They are God the Father's irrevocable gift to God the Son (John 17:6,7).

Backsliding is a sin, but the blood of Jesus Christ, God's Son, cleanses us from all sin (l John 1:7-9).

He is able to save them to the uttermost because Christ "ever liveth to make intercession for them" (Hebrews 7:25).

They are upon trusting Christ made "accepted in the Beloved" (Ephesians 1:6).

Nothing can separate them from the love of Christ (Romans 8:38-39).

By one offering He hath perfected forever them that are sanctified (Hebrews 10:10-14).

They cannot be unborn (John 3:6-8).

Christ dwelleth in them for ever (2 John 2). No man can pluck the Christian out of His Father's hand, and that necessarily includes the believer himself (John 10:29).



All who are justified are finally glorified—none are lost along the way (Romans 8:28-30).

In their flesh dwelleth no good thing; they are saved by grace (undeserved favor) and not by their own works (Ephesians 2:8, 9). Æ The gifts and calling of God are without repentance; God will never annul His promise or cast out those who have come unto Him through Christ (Romans 11:29; John 6:37;17:2).

http://www.baptistpillar.com/bd0484.htm

Bayhawks83 said:

i havnet heard anything more ridiculous than this. once saved always saved is backed by scripture. protostants are the ones drawing close to God while catholics backslide. Cathalocism is just a tradition, NOT a religion.

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Bayhawks83,

This is not a debate forum. We will not be debating Once Saved Always Saved in this forum. And I will ask you to have respect since this is the Catholic forum and not slander our Faith.

Thank you,

MissShelby
CF Moderator

bayhawk, lets take this to PM so as not to debate on this forum.

Bayhawks83 said:

i havnet heard anything more ridiculous than this. once saved always saved is backed by scripture. baptists are the ones drawing close to God while catholics backslide. Cathalocism is just a tradition, NOT a religion.

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Hey, whatever makes you feel better bud...

BrianInNC said:

...
However, there is that certain segmant of Protestants who tend to begin the discussion by accusing me (and all other Catholics with me) of 'corrupting the gospel' and 'promoting salvation by works' (and sometimes less charitable thoughts than those). With those, brushing aside the discussion as "just details" is impossible. As Defense and Shelb have noted, those persons are wrong, and I'm not going to be shy about pointing out why.

Peace to you.

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Great Post Brian.

THE FALLACY OF "ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED."

Does that "certain segment of Protestants" include a Pastor who runs off with his secretary and abandon his wife and children? This happened in 1974 in Tennessee at a protestant seminary, which my brother attended.

Did that "certain segment of Protestants" never have the faith to begin with? This Tennessee Bible college president was in his early 40's and was a good Christian for 30 years. He was pastoring a church and was the head of a Bible college. He gave heart-felt sermons. He did "good works" although he taught that "faith alone saves." NO ONE suspected anything wrong with him. He was apparently walking the walk. One serious fall and he was accused of never having had any faith in Christ because he believed and taught: "once saved always saved." What a dilemna in which to find oneself!

From the earliest times, the Catholic Church has taught that God is merciful. That if you fall into sin, and repent, that God will forgive and remit your sins, no matter how serious the sin. The only sin from which we cannot receive pardon is the sin against the Holy Spirit. That sin against the Holy Spirit is a denial that even God can save: despair or presumption. Any Christian who believes that he can continue to sin and still be saved commits the serious sin of presumption. Any Christian who believes that he can save himself solely by his own good deeds is also presumptious. Any Christian who despairs and falls into the negative thinking that he can never be forgiven his sin commits a sin against the Holy Spirit.

THE FALLACY OF "FAITH ALONE SAVES"

We are saved by the grace of God and through our good works, because "faith without works is dead." Proof: Read the Sermon on the Mount which includes the Beatitudes (cf. Matthew 5 -7, especially Matthew 5:20). Christ admonishes us to be DOERS of good works and not just HEARERS alone.

Remember the Beatitudes: Blessed are the merciful, for they shall see God. Who are the merciful? They are the one who do good works: give bread to the hungry, clothes to the naked, visit the imprisoned and do not judge others.

Study the final judgment (cf. Matthew 25:31-46). Christ again mentions the merciful. They are the ones to whom Christ will say, "Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in. I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me." (Matt. 25: 34-36 NKJV)

If you don't do good deeds, your salvation is at risk. Do you want to risk eternity by not doing charitable deeds or by failing to encourage others to do good deeds? Remember Christ condemned those who teach errors also.

Just something to think about.

Yours in Christ our God,
Elizabeth