Are catholics different from "Christians"?

[Theresa]

From what I can find, the Waldenses were founded in 1368 by Waldes. Certainly not as old as one who claims succession would like it to be.

The documentation used to support the idea of historical succession was proven to be tampered with in the 19th century, and is know now to be a fable.

He used the Bible, and the Catholic Church Fathers to form his sect.

 

[Oblio]

This is what you opened with:

While the other postings would indicate that there was nothing before the Catholic Church existed, that would be in error, for there has always been a thread of Protestanism thoughout the church history which the Roman Church persistently persecuted and attempted to destroy.

When in truth, there is a thread of heresies throughout the history of the Church, believing things that most Protestants would not want to lay claim to, starting with the Manichaens. Do you also think the JWs have ancient and valid roots because their beliefs align with the Arians ?

 

[Oblio]

The documentation used to support the idea of historical succession was proven to be tampered with in the 19th century, and is know now to be a fable.

Thanks Theresa, I had forgot about that.

 

[good4u]

In my opinion, the real answer is: "It depends."

I live in a very Catholic dominated city, and I know many different type of Catholics and Protestants.

Many Catholics (and also many Protestants) do not understand how to have a personal relationship to God directly thru Christ. No other mediator is necessary to have this relationship.

Catholicism has a very confluted way of communicating this to their parishoners. Having said that, I know of wonderful folk who I believe are geniune Chrisitians who just happen to be in Catholisim. However, most I have met don't understand the personal relationship to God in Christ. Because they rely on Catholic teachings from the Catholic church instead of reading the Bible for themselves in personal study for Christian teaching and living.

Protestants who do not participate in Bible study and apply it to their lives are no better.

This is strictly my opinion thru my own experience in interaction with both Catholics and Protestants.

 

[Knight]

I think it's safe to say that there are distinct differences between Catholics and Protestants. However, it is not accurate to suggest that Catholics are different (ie:not) Christian.

 

[Serapha]

From what I can find, the Waldenses were founded in 1368 by Waldes. Certainly not as old as one who claims succession would like it to be.

The documentation used to support the idea of historical succession was proven to be tampered with in the 19th century, and is know now to be a fable.

He used the Bible, and the Catholic Church Fathers to form his sect.

"he used the Bible"


No where did I claim "succession"... that is strictly a traditional teaching of Catholicism. Christ didn't teach that there would be "succession" of position, did he? that was the laying on of hands concerned the Holy Spirit.

Now ... back to the discussion...

Step one. The teachings of the Waldenses preceeds the Reformation, right?

~malaka~

 

[Serapha]

This is what you opened with:



When in truth, there is a thread of heresies throughout the history of the Church, believing things that most Protestants would not want to lay claim to, starting with the Manichaens. Do you also think the JWs have ancient and valid roots because their beliefs align with the Arians ?

The question isn't about the Jehovah's witnesess, is it?

Go back to the last posting and pick up the discussion unless you want to skip the issue because you don't want to addresss it.


~malaka~

 

[Serapha]

rather than leaving the posting as it was, an apology is in order....

~malaka~

 

[Oblio]

No the teaching of the Waldensians is heretical, so is the Paulicans, and the Albiginsians. Do you as a Baptist lay claim to the adoption of their teachings which is not Protestant , but simply a heretical sect of the Church. ?

 

[Oblio]

And the JWs are germane to this thread because that is using the same logic that you are to 'prove' the existence of Baptists prior to the Reformation.

 

[nyj]

Because they rely on Catholic teachings from the Catholic church instead of reading the Bible for themselves in personal study for Christian teaching and living.

Protestants who do not participate in Bible study and apply it to their lives are no better.

I guess illiterate people throughout the world are in some deep poopie then eh, because they rely on the teachings of their priest/pastor instead of reading the Bible for themselves.

 

[Serapha]

No the teaching of the Waldensians is heretical, so is the Paulicans, and the Albiginsians. Do you as a Baptist lay claim to the adoption of their teachings which is not Protestant , but simply a heretical sect of the Church. ?

Before we continue, clarity please.



What is "a heretical sect of the Church"?


~malaka~

 

[Oblio]

Heresy. (Gr. "new and personal belief or idea"). The denial or rejection of a revealed dogma or belief accepted and professed by the Church. An individual who begins a heresy is a heretic and is excommunicated.

 

[Oblio]

e.g. -

The Albigenses asserted the co-existence of two mutually opposed principles, one good, the other evil. The former is the creator of the spiritual, the latter of the material world. The bad principle is the source of all evil; natural phenomena, either ordinary like the growth of plants, or extraordinary as earthquakes, likewise moral disorders (war), must be attributed to him. He created the human body and is the author of sin, which springs from matter and not from the spirit. The Old Testament must be either partly or entirely ascribed to him; whereas the New Testament is the revelation of the beneficent God. The latter is the creator of human souls, which the bad principle imprisoned in material bodies after he had deceived them into leaving the kingdom of light. This earth is a place of punishment, the only hell that exists for the human soul. Punishment, however, is not everlasting; for all souls, being Divine in nature, must eventually be liberated. To accomplish this deliverance God sent upon earth Jesus Christ, who, although very perfect, like the Holy Ghost, is still a mere creature. The Redeemer could not take on a genuine human body, because he would thereby have come under the control of the evil principle. His body was, therefore, of celestial essence, and with it He penetrated the ear of Mary. It was only apparently that He was born from her and only apparently that He suffered. His redemption was not operative, but solely instructive. To enjoy its benefits, one must become a member of the Church of Christ (the Albigenses). Here below, it is not the Catholic sacraments but the peculiar ceremony of the Albigenses known as the consolamentum, or "consolation," that purifies the soul from all sin and ensures its immediate return to heaven. The resurrection of the body will not take place, since by its nature all flesh is evil.

From Albigenses

 

[Serapha]

Heresy. (Gr. "new and personal belief or idea"). The denial or rejection of a revealed dogma or belief accepted and professed by the Church. An individual who begins a heresy is a heretic and is excommunicated.

Therefore, anything outside catholicism is "heretical" as no other denomination aligns with (denial of/rejection of) the teachings of the Church.



This discussion is over as it is senseless to continue. Every Protestant AND Baptist on this forum should be offended by your posting....cuz we are all heretics by your definition.

~heretically yours~
~malaka~

 

[Serapha]

e.g. -

The Albigenses asserted the co-existence of two mutually opposed principles, one good, the other evil. The former is the creator of the spiritual, the latter of the material world. The bad principle is the source of all evil; natural phenomena, either ordinary like the growth of plants, or extraordinary as earthquakes, likewise moral disorders (war), must be attributed to him. He created the human body and is the author of sin, which springs from matter and not from the spirit. The Old Testament must be either partly or entirely ascribed to him; whereas the New Testament is the revelation of the beneficent God. The latter is the creator of human souls, which the bad principle imprisoned in material bodies after he had deceived them into leaving the kingdom of light. This earth is a place of punishment, the only hell that exists for the human soul. Punishment, however, is not everlasting; for all souls, being Divine in nature, must eventually be liberated. To accomplish this deliverance God sent upon earth Jesus Christ, who, although very perfect, like the Holy Ghost, is still a mere creature. The Redeemer could not take on a genuine human body, because he would thereby have come under the control of the evil principle. His body was, therefore, of celestial essence, and with it He penetrated the ear of Mary. It was only apparently that He was born from her and only apparently that He suffered. His redemption was not operative, but solely instructive. To enjoy its benefits, one must become a member of the Church of Christ (the Albigenses). Here below, it is not the Catholic sacraments but the peculiar ceremony of the Albigenses known as the consolamentum, or "consolation," that purifies the soul from all sin and ensures its immediate return to heaven. The resurrection of the body will not take place, since by its nature all flesh is evil.

From Albigenses

You know, I could criticize your denomination.... it's a choice.


~malaka~

 

[Oblio]

Every Protestant AND Baptist on this forum should be offended by your posting....cuz we are all heretics by your definition.

It is the definition of the Church. And you didn't read it very close.

An individual who begins a heresy is a heretic and is excommunicated.

 

[Serapha]

The Albigense


They said a Christian church should consist of good people; a church had no power to frame any constitutions; it was not right to take oaths; it was not lawful to kill mankind; a man ought not to be delivered up to the officers of justice to be converted; the benefits of society belong alike to all members of it; faith without works could not save a man; the church ought not to persecute any, even the wicked; the law of Moses was no rule for Christians; there was no need of priests, especially of wicked ones; the sacraments, and orders, and ceremonies of the church of Rome were futile, expensive, oppressive, and wicked. They baptized by immersion and rejected infant baptism (Jones, The History of the Christian Church, I. 287). They were decidedly anti-clerical.



"Here then," says Dr. Allix, "we have found a body of men in Italy, before the year one thousand and twenty-six, five hundred years before the Reformation, who believed contrary to the opinions of the Church of Rome, and who highly condemned their errors." Atto, Bishop of Vercelli, had complained of such a people eighty years before, and so had others before him, and there is the highest reason to believe they had always existed in Italy (Ibid, I. 288). The Cathari themselves boasted of their remote antiquity (Bonacursus, Vitae haereticorum. Cathorum, ap. D’Archery, Scriptorum Spicilegiam, I. 208).




In, tracing the history and doctrines of the Albigenses it must never be forgotten that on account of persecution they scarcely left a trace of their writings, confessional, apologetical, or polemical; and the representations which Roman Catholic writers, their avowed enemies, have given of them, are highly exaggerated...

"A History of the Baptists" John Christian

 

[Serapha]

It is the definition of the Church. And you didn't read it very close.

An individual who begins a heresy is a heretic and is excommunicated.

Then this statement isn't true???

"The denial or rejection of a revealed dogma or belief accepted and professed by the Church." as heretic defined????

... because Baptists and Protestants deny or reject particular dogmas professed by the Church.


~malaka~

 

[Oblio]

One who starts the heresy is a heretic. Arius, Nestorius et. al. are all heretics and were excommunicated form the Church

The denial or rejection of a revealed dogma or belief accepted and professed by the Church is heresy, not a heretic.