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Are atheists determinists?

Paul of Eugene OR

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Atheists aren't necessarily anything other than non-theists. An atheist could believe in ghosts.

I believe in determinism though, and I don't think there's any free will. I don't think there's any room for free will even if the spiritual exists. Souls would still be determined. I rejected free will on the basis of thinking about the soul, and thoughts, not because of physical determinism.

What do you think is the problem with belief or science if there isn't free will. You even say yourself that we can reason without free will. A computer doesn't need free will to tell you that 2+2=4, and be correct.

You also don't need free will for moral action. You could question whether we can blame or praise people for doing the wrong or right thing though.

I recall reading an experiment by a researcher who tried suggesting to one group of people that they all had free will and to another group of people there is no such thing as free will and testing them for what kind of choices they made afterwards. The group assured they had free will were more likely to choose long term benefits over short term benefits.

So apparently assuring each other we do have free will can have survival benefits for the group.

Doesn't make it true, of course, but does make add an interesting wrinkle to the discussion.
 
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keith99

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I recall reading an experiment by a researcher who tried suggesting to one group of people that they all had free will and to another group of people there is no such thing as free will and testing them for what kind of choices they made afterwards. The group assured they had free will were more likely to choose long term benefits over short term benefits.

So apparently assuring each other we do have free will can have survival benefits for the group.

Doesn't make it true, of course, but does make add an interesting wrinkle to the discussion.

Now we just need to figure out a way to force people to believe in free will.
 
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jayem

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But imagine additionally that you also had time to tell the opponent what he was going to do. You've then thrown a monkey wrench into the proceedings, that is free will. The opponent may do what his circuitry indicated (maybe he wants to lose intentionally), or he may choose to do otherwise.


But there is a point where his will is superceded by neurophysiology. Once enough acetylcholine is released at the neuromuscular junction, that muscle will contract. That's what I mean by the final motor pathway. There won't be time for a competing neural impulse to be formed in the frontal lobe, then make its way to the motor cortex (with additional signals to and from the cerebellum, which provide for smooth, well-coordinated movements) and down the spinal cord to the peripheral nerves controlling hand motions.
 
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Chesterton

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How does supernatural power change anything?

It allows for will, because you can't get will without supernatural magic.

What's your point? Are you agreeing with me?

I'm agreeing that they are free to change their mind. I don't agree with the other part about programming a computer because it's not the same. As you said, the computer will always do what you tell it to do.
 
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Chesterton

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Hi Chesterton,

Could you explain to me why you believe that physical nature leads to determinism. I don't understand the cause of this belief. Thanks.

Robert

A belief in only physical nature has to lead to determinism. Our brains are made of atoms which follow physical laws, and don't make decisions, therefore we cannot make decisions.
 
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Paradoxum

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I recall reading an experiment by a researcher who tried suggesting to one group of people that they all had free will and to another group of people there is no such thing as free will and testing them for what kind of choices they made afterwards. The group assured they had free will were more likely to choose long term benefits over short term benefits.

So apparently assuring each other we do have free will can have survival benefits for the group.

Doesn't make it true, of course, but does make add an interesting wrinkle to the discussion.

I don't deny it might be helpful, but I'm just talking about what is true.

My position is that it isn't true, but we have to pretend it is to function properly.

It allows for will, because you can't get will without supernatural magic.

But how does supernatural magic make it possible? What does the power do?

How is what you're saying any different from saying that magic can make a square circle? I don't think free will is possible, with or without magic. It's not a thing that could ever possibly exist... a bit like a square circle.

Either a thing is caused, or it's random. That's my opinion anyway.

I'm agreeing that they are free to change their mind. I don't agree with the other part about programming a computer because it's not the same. As you said, the computer will always do what you tell it to do.

And a brain will always do what it's programmed to do. You can't tell someone what to do because you don't know how to control the brain. Humans aren't programmed to do what they are told.
 
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Chesterton

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If determinism means that any event is directly caused by the existing circumstances prior to the event, then "telling the opponent what he was going to do" has to be included in this set of circumstances. The previous prediction did not include it, so it can not be used to determine the outcome.

So you're saying that if you include "telling the opponent what he was going to do" in the set of circumstances then you could predict the outcome? How could that be? Wouldn't you wind up with a kind of infinite progression - everytime you tell him what he's going to do, he's equally free each time to do it or not - which is my point - he's choosing every time.

But either way... determinism does not mean predictability.

In theory it does (quantum mechanics aside). Although QM may be the way will works. I've heard weirder interpretations.
 
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Chesterton

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But there is a point where his will is superceded by neurophysiology. Once enough acetylcholine is released at the neuromuscular junction, that muscle will contract. That's what I mean by the final motor pathway. There won't be time for a competing neural impulse to be formed in the frontal lobe, then make its way to the motor cortex (with additional signals to and from the cerebellum, which provide for smooth, well-coordinated movements) and down the spinal cord to the peripheral nerves controlling hand motions.

But if you exercise that type of control, it seems like you're saying that if you remove a physical mechanism through which free will might operate, then you've "superceded" will, when all you've done is remove it. Just like, I have "life" in me, but if you cut out my heart, I won't have life. You've merely removed a mechanism through which life operates; you haven't shown that there's no such thing as life.
 
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Chesterton

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But how does supernatural magic make it possible? What does the power do?

I don't know. I'm not the magician. But for any atheist who believes in free will, I would ask the same of the atoms - what do they do?

How is what you're saying any different from saying that magic can make a square circle? I don't think free will is possible, with or without magic. It's not a thing that could ever possibly exist... a bit like a square circle.

Either a thing is caused, or it's random. That's my opinion anyway.

If you don't think free will is possible, then we're in agreement. I don't think you should think it's possible. Non-theists who admit to being determinists are at least being consistent. (Not that I don't still have some problems with determinists. As someone noted above, it presents a moral problem, because we really should abolish police, courts and prisons, because no one can really help what they do, and it's immoral to punish people for doing things they can't possibly help doing.)

And a brain will always do what it's programmed to do. You can't tell someone what to do because you don't know how to control the brain. Humans aren't programmed to do what they are told.

But you think humans are programmed by physics, which means sometime in the future humans may very well be programmed by humans to do what they're told.

I don't deny it might be helpful, but I'm just talking about what is true.

My position is that it isn't true, but we have to pretend it is to function properly.

Very interested in truth, but willing to pretend it's not true in order to function properly? Interesting... ;)
 
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Paradoxum

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I don't know. I'm not the magician. But for any atheist who believes in free will, I would ask the same of the atoms - what do they do?

Well I don't believe in free will, so I don't think atoms do anything to do with free will.

If you don't think free will is possible, then we're in agreement. I don't think you should think it's possible. Non-theists who admit to being determinists are at least being consistent. (Not that I don't still have some problems with determinists. As someone noted above, it presents a moral problem, because we really should abolish police, courts and prisons, because no one can really help what they do, and it's immoral to punish people for doing things they can't possibly help doing.)

I don't think it's even possible for theists though.

That's why I ask you what you think the magic power does. If you don't know, then aren't you just waving your hands, saying it's behind the curtain, even though I've never looked. Maybe there's nothing there.

If you choose to do X, either it has a cause, or it's random; and I don't think magic solves that problem.

But you think humans are programmed by physics, which means sometime in the future humans may very well be programmed by humans to do what they're told.

Mind control might be possible in the future.

Very interested in truth, but willing to pretend it's not true in order to function properly? Interesting... ;)

Yeah. :)
 
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True Scotsman

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A belief in only physical nature has to lead to determinism. Our brains are made of atoms which follow physical laws, and don't make decisions, therefore we cannot make decisions.

Why not? A brain may be made of atoms but it is not simply atoms. It is a highly complex combination of interconnected cells and sensory organs. Atoms can't make decisions but brains do. What is to prevent a functioning brain from making decisions?
 
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True Scotsman

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A belief in only physical nature has to lead to determinism. Our brains are made of atoms which follow physical laws, and don't make decisions, therefore we cannot make decisions.

I don't believe in only physical nature. Nor do I believe that consciousness is some separate entity. You may be mistakenly thinking that all atheists are materialists. I am not. Consciousness is an attribute of living organisms. Man is an integration of matter and consciousness and I see no reason to split the two. I think your assertion that naturalism leads to determinism is based on this faulty view of consciousness as some supernatural entity entwined with our physical body. It is an attribute or process like digestion only at least in Humans it is a volitional process, at least the conceptual faculty is.

So if we discard the mind/ body dichotomy, for which there is no evidence at all, why can't consciousness be volitional?
 
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True Scotsman

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A belief in only physical nature has to lead to determinism. Our brains are made of atoms which follow physical laws, and don't make decisions, therefore we cannot make decisions.

Actually I got off topic with my previous two responses. I meant to ask if your view of causality was why you think that naturalism leads to determinism. Do you have an event based view of causation?
 
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Eudaimonist

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A belief in only physical nature has to lead to determinism. Our brains are made of atoms which follow physical laws, and don't make decisions, therefore we cannot make decisions.

That is excessively reductionistic, IMV.

It's like saying that watch gears can't tell time, therefore watches can't tell time.

Your critique might not be bad for reductive materialists such as Karl Marx and his followers, but is outdated and inappropriate now.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Freodin

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So you're saying that if you include "telling the opponent what he was going to do" in the set of circumstances then you could predict the outcome? How could that be? Wouldn't you wind up with a kind of infinite progression - everytime you tell him what he's going to do, he's equally free each time to do it or not - which is my point - he's choosing every time.
At some point, you have to stop, or you won't have a "decision". So there is no infinite progression.

In theory it does (quantum mechanics aside). Although QM may be the way will works. I've heard weirder interpretations.
Well, yes, in theory is says that you could predict the outcome.
But I assert that, in order to correctly predict the outcome of a complex and chaotic system, you need the complete amount of information that the original system contains.
As the only way to do this is to be equal or greater than the original system, it is not possible for anything within the original system (e.g. a human being) to do that.

A belief in only physical nature has to lead to determinism. Our brains are made of atoms which follow physical laws, and don't make decisions, therefore we cannot make decisions.
That is incorrect. A complex system is more than the sum of its parts. Don't assume that everyone else thinks as reductionist as you do.

Take, for example, a simple sieve. A sieve is made of atoms, atoms cannot measure, atoms cannot decide... but still a sieve let pass only grains under a certain size. How does it do that? How does it know? It's magic! Or supernatural! Or divine!
It isn't. It is an emergent property of the system of atoms making up the sieve.

In a similar way, the more complex system of the atoms that make up "the human being" is capable of making more complex decisions.
 
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Chesterton

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I don't think it's even possible for theists though.

That's why I ask you what you think the magic power does. If you don't know, then aren't you just waving your hands, saying it's behind the curtain, even though I've never looked. Maybe there's nothing there.

No, because I'm not trying to explain will. I'm just trying to explain why atheists cannot believe in it.
 
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Chesterton

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Why not? A brain may be made of atoms but it is not simply atoms. It is a highly complex combination of interconnected cells and sensory organs. Atoms can't make decisions but brains do. What is to prevent a functioning brain from making decisions?

A brain is simply atoms, no matter how complex the arrangement is. You could create the most vast and complex array of dominos set up to knock each other down, or a Rube Goldberg type machine, and you could fill the entire universe with it, but you will never get an ounce of will or decision-making from it. You'd just get dominos striking dominos according to physical laws.

Actually I got off topic with my previous two responses. I meant to ask if your view of causality was why you think that naturalism leads to determinism. Do you have an event based view of causation?

I personally dont have that view, but I see no way a naturalist/materialist can have any other view.
 
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