Are all Bibles Created Equal?

Deadworm · Feb 22, 2017

The modern critical text used by recent translations is based on the new science of Text Criticism (TC). This science uses rock solid principles to discover the most original text. e. g.

(1) Conflation: If a Byzantine text reads "grace" and "peace" and 2 earlier texts just read "grace" or "peace," then it is clear that a later scribe, uncertain about which word to choose, included both in a conflated phrase.
(2) Often later texts try to clarify ambiguities in the original text. So the "harder reading" is often to be preferred.
(3) Often the later additions clash with the Hebrew or Greek style of the original and gave the error away that way.
(4) Before there were complete NT manuscripts, there were early Church Fathers, who quoted NT texts. So these patristic texts are another way of assessing the accuracy of the earlier translations. Also, the early Church Father (e. g. Origen) sometimes comments on what the earliest texts say, to the detriment of the text underlying the KJV.
(5) The ability to group biblical manuscripts into families by text type, region, and date often allows text critics to identify where, why, and when errors crept into the text.

The result of this scholarship is a demonstration of the relatively corrupt nature of the Textus Receptus and the texts used by the KJV, for which the best and earliest manuscripts were not available. Again, I pose the question: Why do those of you who pride yourself in your "high" view of biblical inspiration choose to use the most corrupt Bible version?

66/40 · Feb 22, 2017

I think people get too festered up with bible translations as a whole. Every year I read a different translation between the Geneva-1599, KJV-1873, KJV-1611 (2nd ed), NIV-1984, NKJV, and NASB. Six bibles rotated every six years. There are bibles I won't read however like the cult bibles (KJV-Smith inspired, NWT (JW's), The Message, NLT etc...). Out of the six I rotate, I feel that they are all worthy of being God's Word.

I rotate between bibles because I like to change the writing style, syntax and cadence of the English language I'm reading from. Plain and simple.

BukiRob · Feb 22, 2017

Greg J. said:
He most definitely is not.

Oh but he is.....

benelchi · Feb 22, 2017

BukiRob said:
Anyone can find extreme examples. And that is not what I am talking about and frankly you know it.

What I know is the example I provided was not an extreme example but rather it is reflective of the norm, and it demonstrates why using a lexicon and a concordance to "back translate" the text is so error prone.

Winken · Feb 22, 2017

PROPHECYKID said:
Hey guys. Been doing some research lately into both the books that some claim were left out of the bible and also comparing many of the versions of the bible that use today. Here are just a few scriptures for comparison. Are these just grammatical differences or does it give a different meaning altogether?

1 John 4:3
(NIV) but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
(ASV) and every spirit that confesseth not Jesus is not of God: and this is the spirit of the antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it cometh; and now it is in the world already.
(BBE) And every spirit which does not say this is not from God: this is the spirit of Antichrist, of which you have had word; and it is in the world even now.
(NIV) but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
(KJV) And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

I Timothy 3:16
(ASV) Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness:
(BBE) Every holy Writing which comes from God is of profit for teaching, for training, for guiding, for education in righteousness:
(KJV) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
(ISV) All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

Mark 10: 24
(NIV) The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, “Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God!
(CEV) The disciples were shocked to hear this. So Jesus told them again, "It's terribly hard to get into God's kingdom!
(ERV) The followers were amazed at what Jesus said. But he said again, "My children, it is very hard to enter God's kingdom!
(ISV) The disciples were startled by these words, but Jesus told them again, "Children, how hard it is for those who trust in their wealth to get into the kingdom of God!
(KJV) And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!

2 Peter 2:9
(ASV) the Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment unto the day of judgment;
(BBE) The Lord is able to keep the upright safe in the time of testing, and to keep evil-doers under punishment till the day of judging;
(CEV) This shows that the Lord knows how to rescue godly people from their sufferings and to punish evil people while they wait for the day of judgment.
(KJV) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Revelation 22:14
(ASV) Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have the right to come to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city.
(ESV) Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.
(KJV) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
(WEB) Blessed are those who do his commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city.

John 9:4
(ASV) We must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
(BBE) While it is day we have to do the works of him who sent me: the night comes when no work may be done.
(CEV) As long as it is day, we must do what the one who sent me wants me to do. When night comes, no one can work.
(ISV) I must do the work of the one who sent me while it is day. Night is approaching, when no one can work.
(KJV) I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

Acts 13:42
(ASV) And as they went out, they besought that these words might be spoken to them the next sabbath.
(CEV) As Paul and Barnabas were leaving the meeting, the people begged them to say more about these same things on the next Sabbath.
(ISV) As Paul and Barnabas were leaving, the people kept urging them to tell them the same things the next Sabbath.
(KJV) And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
(WEB) So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.

Daniel 3:25
(ASV) He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the aspect of the fourth is like a son of the gods.
(BBE) He made answer and said, Look! I see four men loose, walking in the middle of the fire, and they are not damaged; and the form of the fourth is like a son of the gods.
(ESV) He answered and said, “But I see four men unbound, walking in the midst of the fire, and they are not hurt; and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods.”
(KJV) He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Mark 7:19
(ASV) because it goeth not into his heart, but into his belly, and goeth out into the draught? This he said, making all meats clean.
(BBE) Because it goes not into the heart but into the stomach, and goes out with the waste? He said this, making all food clean.
(CEV) It doesn't go into your heart, but into your stomach, and then out of your body." By saying this, Jesus meant that all foods were fit to eat.
(KJV) Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
(LITV) This is because it does not enter into his heart, but into the belly, and goes out into the waste-bowl, purging all the foods.
(DRB) Because it entereth not into his heart but goeth into his belly and goeth out into the privy, purging all meats?

Daniel 3:25 should be "the Son of God." Otherwise I don't see anything significant.

Dr Bruce Atkinson · Feb 22, 2017

PROPHECYKID said:
Hey guys. Been doing some research lately into both the books that some claim were left out of the bible and also comparing many of the versions of the bible that use today. Here are just a few scriptures for comparison. Are these just grammatical differences or does it give a different meaning altogether?

1 John 4:3
(NIV) but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
(ASV) and every spirit that confesseth not Jesus is not of God: and this is the spirit of the antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it cometh; and now it is in the world already.
(BBE) And every spirit which does not say this is not from God: this is the spirit of Antichrist, of which you have had word; and it is in the world even now.
(NIV) but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
(KJV) And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

I Timothy 3:16
(ASV) Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness:
(BBE) Every holy Writing which comes from God is of profit for teaching, for training, for guiding, for education in righteousness:
(KJV) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
(ISV) All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

Mark 10: 24
(NIV) The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, “Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God!
(CEV) The disciples were shocked to hear this. So Jesus told them again, "It's terribly hard to get into God's kingdom!
(ERV) The followers were amazed at what Jesus said. But he said again, "My children, it is very hard to enter God's kingdom!
(ISV) The disciples were startled by these words, but Jesus told them again, "Children, how hard it is for those who trust in their wealth to get into the kingdom of God!
(KJV) And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!

2 Peter 2:9
(ASV) the Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment unto the day of judgment;
(BBE) The Lord is able to keep the upright safe in the time of testing, and to keep evil-doers under punishment till the day of judging;
(CEV) This shows that the Lord knows how to rescue godly people from their sufferings and to punish evil people while they wait for the day of judgment.
(KJV) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Revelation 22:14
(ASV) Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have the right to come to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city.
(ESV) Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.
(KJV) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
(WEB) Blessed are those who do his commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city.

John 9:4
(ASV) We must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
(BBE) While it is day we have to do the works of him who sent me: the night comes when no work may be done.
(CEV) As long as it is day, we must do what the one who sent me wants me to do. When night comes, no one can work.
(ISV) I must do the work of the one who sent me while it is day. Night is approaching, when no one can work.
(KJV) I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

Acts 13:42
(ASV) And as they went out, they besought that these words might be spoken to them the next sabbath.
(CEV) As Paul and Barnabas were leaving the meeting, the people begged them to say more about these same things on the next Sabbath.
(ISV) As Paul and Barnabas were leaving, the people kept urging them to tell them the same things the next Sabbath.
(KJV) And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
(WEB) So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.

Daniel 3:25
(ASV) He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the aspect of the fourth is like a son of the gods.
(BBE) He made answer and said, Look! I see four men loose, walking in the middle of the fire, and they are not damaged; and the form of the fourth is like a son of the gods.
(ESV) He answered and said, “But I see four men unbound, walking in the midst of the fire, and they are not hurt; and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods.”
(KJV) He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Mark 7:19
(ASV) because it goeth not into his heart, but into his belly, and goeth out into the draught? This he said, making all meats clean.
(BBE) Because it goes not into the heart but into the stomach, and goes out with the waste? He said this, making all food clean.
(CEV) It doesn't go into your heart, but into your stomach, and then out of your body." By saying this, Jesus meant that all foods were fit to eat.
(KJV) Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
(LITV) This is because it does not enter into his heart, but into the belly, and goes out into the waste-bowl, purging all the foods.
(DRB) Because it entereth not into his heart but goeth into his belly and goeth out into the privy, purging all meats?

All Bibles may not be created equal and certainly all translators are not equal in ability and discernment from the Holy Spirit. However, this is not really a problem. Any reasonable person can compare these versions (along with many other English translations) and come up with a very good understanding of what God is revealing to us. On any essential doctrines, you will find minimal disagreement among translations or among traditional interpretations over the course of 2000 years. Only lately can you find lots of heterodox interpretations which are due to those who believe too much in cultural and secular values. When the early Church Fathers, the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and the Reformers all agree, you can "take it to the bank" so to speak. Where they do not agree, go with the interpretations where the majority of these agree. Google St. Vincent's Canon. And check out the following article:
http://www.virtueonline.org/translations-bible-issue-language

Der Alte · Feb 22, 2017

BukiRob said:
See, we wont even agree on what is being said here..... What WORD? The Tanakh (more specifically the Torah)

I'm not so sure about that.
Here from the Jewish Encyclopedia, part of the article on “Memra,” the Aramaic word for “word.” The Targums were Aramaic translations of the O.T., during the Babylonian captivity about 700 BC.
Here in this citation there are at least eighty examples where the name of YHWH was replaced, in the Targums, with “memra.” When the Jew John said to his Jewish audience, “In the beginning was the Word.” he was not saying anything new.

Jewish Encyclopedia Memra-In the Targum:
In the Targum the Memra figures constantly as the manifestation of the divine power, or as God's messenger in place of God Himself, wherever the predicate is not in conformity with the dignity or the spirituality of the Deity.
Instead of the Scriptural "You have not believed in the Lord," Targ. Deut. i. 32 has "You have not believed in the word of the Lord"; instead of "I shall require it [vengeance] from him," Targ. Deut. xviii. 19 has "My word shall require it." "The Memra," instead of "the Lord," is "the consuming fire" (Targ. Deut. ix. 3; comp. Targ. Isa. xxx. 27). The Memra "plagued the people" (Targ. Yer. to Ex. xxxii. 35). "The Memra smote him" (II Sam. vi. 7; comp. Targ. I Kings xviii. 24; Hos. xiii. 14; et al.). Not "God," but "the Memra," is met with in Targ. Ex. xix. 17 (Targ. Yer. "the Shekinah"; comp. Targ. Ex. xxv. 22: "I will order My Memra to be there"). "I will cover thee with My Memra," instead of "My hand" (Targ. Ex. xxxiii. 22). Instead of "My soul," "My Memra shall reject you" (Targ. Lev. xxvi. 30; comp. Isa. i. 14, xlii. 1; Jer. vi. 8; Ezek. xxiii. 18). "The voice of the Memra," instead of "God," is heard (Gen. iii. 8; Deut. iv. 33, 36; v. 21; Isa. vi. 8; et al.). Where Moses says, "I stood between the Lord and you" (Deut. v. 5), the Targum has, "between the Memra of the Lord and you"; and the "sign between Me and you" becomes a "sign between My Memra and you" (Ex. xxxi. 13, 17; comp. Lev. xxvi. 46; Gen. ix. 12; xvii. 2, 7, 10; Ezek. xx. 12). Instead of God, the Memra comes to Abimelek (Gen. xx. 3), and to Balaam (Num. xxiii. 4). His Memra aids and accompanies Israel, performing wonders for them (Targ. Num. xxiii. 21; Deut. i. 30, xxxiii. 3; Targ. Isa. lxiii. 14; Jer. xxxi. 1; Hos. ix. 10 [comp. xi. 3, "the messenger-angel"]). The Memra goes before Cyrus (Isa. xlv. 12). The Lord swears by His Memra (Gen. xxi. 23, xxii. 16, xxiv. 3; Ex. xxxii. 13; Num. xiv. 30; Isa. xlv. 23; Ezek. xx. 5; et al.). It is His Memra that repents (Targ. Gen. vi. 6, viii. 21; I Sam. xv. 11, 35). "Not His 'hand,' but His "Memra has laid the foundation of the earth" (Targ. Isa. xlviii. 13); for His Memra's or Name's sake does He act (l.c. xlviii. 11; II Kings xix. 34). Through the Memra God turns to His people (Targ. Lev. xxvi. 90; II Kings xiii. 23), becomes the shield of Abraham (Gen. xv. 1), and is with Moses (Ex. iii. 12; iv. 12, 15) and with Israel (Targ. Yer. to Num. x. 35, 36; Isa. lxiii. 14). It is the Memra, not God Himself, against whom man offends (Ex. xvi. 8; Num. xiv. 5; I Kings viii. 50; II Kings xix. 28; Isa. i. 2, 16; xlv. 3, 20; Hos. v. 7, vi. 7; Targ. Yer. to Lev. v. 21, vi. 2; Deut. v. 11); through His Memra Israel shall be justified (Targ. Isa. xlv. 25); with the Memra Israel stands in communion (Targ. Josh. xxii. 24, 27); in the Memra man puts his trust (Targ. Gen. xv. 6; Targ. Yer. to Ex. xiv. 31; Jer. xxxix. 18, xlix. 11).
MEMRA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

SacredwriterNorth · Feb 22, 2017

All this discussion hurts me to view. Let me be plain, and perhaps very non-religious PC on this matter: God is in charge, it is my firm belief after nearly 8 decades of spiritual growth, that He would not allow an erroneous Word to gain acceptance by the Body. I grew up on the KJV, and after a lengthy relationship, shifted to the Amplified with great confidence in the choice.... and now we have the NET, which in my eyes, is probably as close to the meaning of the original transcripts and copies that are relevant that we we achieve. In the movie Bull Durham, the coach is lecturing the baseball team about the sport. In anger, he says, "it is a simple game.... "you hits the ball, you catches the ball, you throws the ball"... We are pulling away from the dock of life in the Boat USS Intellect, when we should be boarding the USS Jesus Christ. To paraphrase the baseball coach's comments: It is a simple matter, you hears the Word, you believes the Word, you acts on the Word.... How deep do we have to go to determine "Truth"... it is hitting us in the nose, and we just don't seem to be happy until we make a mountain out of it... I love higher criticism, and as a writer, love to see the historical and literary aspects of the Bible excavated... but we will NOT stand before the Throne of Judgement and be asked to outline4 the Christological elements of the Old Testament, or explain the Book of Hebrews... the inquiry will be a simple one.... Faith, Love, Walk, Growth, commitment etc. We need to take a collective breath, perhaps, and listen to Him, tune up our beliefs, and let the Holy Spirit speak to us through what we believe to be His Word... NT or OT, it is His Word... Be quiet and listen. For your soul's sake.

Dr. Gene Emahiser, International Falls Mn

Dr Bruce Atkinson · Feb 23, 2017

Commander Xenophon said:
Ad hominem fallacy: it's not relevant if they are followers of Darwin or not.

It certainly tells you something about their judgment and about their general view of the scriptures (as less than authoritative).

Dr Bruce Atkinson · Feb 23, 2017

benelchi said:
This kind of information is made up and promoted by those just wanting to make a buck. The supposed "lost books" have been known by biblical scholars for centuries and were rejected long, long ago.

No translation is perfect, and each good translation has both strengths and weaknesses. comparing the texts (as you have done) is one of the best ways to identify areas where scholars did not agree on the meaning of the text, allowing you to spend time looking at commentaries and translation notes (like those included with the NET) that discuss the reasons for the different translation choices. In general, as demonstrated by your quotes, most versions say basically the same thing but with different wording. In the example of 1 John 4:3, the BBE's "does not say this" is an example of a poor translation of the Greek text that explicitly says "ὃ μὴ ὁμολογεῖ τὸν Ἰησοῦν" (lit. who does not confess [the] Jesus). However, by comparing the text as you have done, the problem with BBE's translation of this verse becomes apparent without every looking at the Greek text. For those who do not read Greek or Hebrew, the use of multiple translations (as you have done) is one of the very best tools that can be used to understand the text!

Good advice ... to which I completely agree.

BukiRob · Feb 23, 2017

◄ 3056. logos ►

III. In several passages in the writings of John ὁ λόγος denotes the essential Word of God, i. e. the personal (hypostatic) wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in the creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah and shone forth conspicuously from his words and deeds: John 1:1, 14;

BukiRob · Feb 23, 2017

SacredwriterNorth said:
All this discussion hurts me to view. Let me be plain, and perhaps very non-religious PC on this matter: God is in charge, it is my firm belief after nearly 8 decades of spiritual growth, that He would not allow an erroneous Word to gain acceptance by the Body. I grew up on the KJV, and after a lengthy relationship, shifted to the Amplified with great confidence in the choice.... and now we have the NET, which in my eyes, is probably as close to the meaning of the original transcripts and copies that are relevant that we we achieve. In the movie Bull Durham, the coach is lecturing the baseball team about the sport. In anger, he says, "it is a simple game.... "you hits the ball, you catches the ball, you throws the ball"... We are pulling away from the dock of life in the Boat USS Intellect, when we should be boarding the USS Jesus Christ. To paraphrase the baseball coach's comments: It is a simple matter, you hears the Word, you believes the Word, you acts on the Word.... How deep do we have to go to determine "Truth"... it is hitting us in the nose, and we just don't seem to be happy until we make a mountain out of it... I love higher criticism, and as a writer, love to see the historical and literary aspects of the Bible excavated... but we will NOT stand before the Throne of Judgement and be asked to outline4 the Christological elements of the Old Testament, or explain the Book of Hebrews... the inquiry will be a simple one.... Faith, Love, Walk, Growth, commitment etc. We need to take a collective breath, perhaps, and listen to Him, tune up our beliefs, and let the Holy Spirit speak to us through what we believe to be His Word... NT or OT, it is His Word... Be quiet and listen. For your soul's sake.

Dr. Gene Emahiser, International Falls Mn

If you ignore the Jewishness of the writing style and culture of the authors, if you do not know the multitude of idioms found all through scripture, if you do not view the NT in light of the OT you are prone to making numerous errors.

benelchi · Feb 23, 2017

BukiRob said:
If you ignore the Jewishness of the writing style and culture of the authors, if you do not know the multitude of idioms found all through scripture, if you do not view the NT in light of the OT you are prone to making numerous errors.

Are all Bibles Created Equal?

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